edit-- 1G rue +1G acacia was more of a minidose than a microdose - definitely felt the effects. Mild enough that I can go about my daily business, so I'm gonna stick with it, but a microdose would be a half or third or quarter of this. Not sure, not gonna experiment, this works for me, but that's my recommendation for any who want to try. 1 G rue is enough for MAOI. It came on in a half hour and lasted for four hours. Then was completely sober with no hint of having taken anything at all to begin with. end edit--

Any sort of oral harmala+DMT combo seems perfect for two reasons:

1) zero tolerance is produced, so no need to wait a few days between doses like with other microdosed substances

2) there is significantly less cognitive distortion - that is to say, oral harmala+DMT is the most "sober" of the psychedelics (if the doses are not "insane", which will make any psychedelic crazy as heck --- I feel like ayahuasca has a reputation the same way LSD did back in the 60's when it was super highly dosed because most people experience it by going down to the Amazon and tripping with shamans instead of making moderate doses by themselves - both hallucinogens in moderate dose range are pretty friendly to the ol' noggin, ayahuasca in my opinion more than any psychedelic).

Because of this cognitive "smoothness", this would probably be a microdosed psychedelic that would be slightly more forgiving of overshooting the dose a little! Unlike LSD or mushrooms, where overshooting the dose quickly leads to an unproductive day.

Drawbacks? Harmalas induce nausea and diarrhea. But if it was done every day and tolerance was built for the harmalas... that should go away after a few days/a week, or whatever.

Also preparation could be difficult --- but I've found that eating the raw plants powdered isn't difficult at all, and especially at microdose ranges it really shouldn't be a bother! Don't use gel caps by the way, way too much time to dissolve, and then at an unsteady rate. Wrap the powdered plants up in rolling papers! (Use the extra large RAW papers, two of them, stuck together to make a single wrapper - twist the paper and cut off the excess "twist" part of the paper.)

I'd probably dose like, 2 grams rue and 1 gram acacia... maybe a half gram of acacia.

Personally I find it best to just grind the plant powders together by the way, rather than "rue first then acacia 15 minutes later" or whatever.

If I ever try microdosing rue+acacia ("Widow's Love" ) I'll report back : )

Anyone tried this?

*edit* I'm gonna start with 1 gram rue 1 gram acacia, see how that goes, maybe stick with that for a while until my body's used to it, and then maybe up the rue dose to 2 grams. At the 2 gram mark for the rue I'll probably just leave it there and then experiment with acacia doses. Or hey, maybe 1G+1G will just be the perfect dose from the start. I'll let ya know!

I've done variable doses of syrian rue + mhrb a lot. Usually more than a microdose if microdose is defined as a sub-threshold dose. However, if I have an evening off and feel the need to dedicate the day for some meditation and inner work, taking for example 3 g of syrian rue and 1 g of mhrb is very easy to handle.

I agree that in small doses this is indeed very sober psychedelic. Your working memory is however affected, so you want to keep your activities simple. Also, there is body load, which makes physical activities heavier. That's one reason I don't do this everyday. I prefer a walk to the trip on weekdays. It's usually good idea to do the bodily work before taking the medicine, but you have to start early so that you don't lose your sleep, because the come up is slow.

I advocate this method. You learn pretty quickly how deep your dose takes you and if you just take the raw plant material, the effects are pretty consistent over time. And yes, you can take just a little and there may be more for you to take home than in the so called "heroic" dose.

To my understanding, coming from the scientists that developed the idea for microdosing, is that anything being microdosed should be barely perceptible and should be spaced to about roughly every three days for best efficacy. Microdosing daily is really not much different than being on a prescribed daily med.

One love

Ahhh, you don't know how DMT works tolerance-wise ; )

Ayahuasca is unique among psychedelics because it produces no tolerance. You can do it every day, even multiple times in the same day. Same with smoked DMT. Other psychedelics will cause tolerance to DMT, but DMT does not produce tolerance to other psychedelics or to itself. It is unique, although that may not be 100% accurate, I think the other endogenous psychedelics (5-MeO-DMT and 5-HO-DMT) also cause little to no tolerance.

Er, or you just don't know why they say to space out microdoses. It's because tolerance builds with things like LSD and mushrooms (even at the microdose range), so you wait a few days between doses.

Yes, microdosing is like any prescribed daily med. DMT would have the advantage of not needing to skip days because it does not require the microdose tolerance break which other psychedelics come with.

I'm gonna start with 1 gram rue + 1 gram acacia, see how that goes, maybe stick with that for a while until my body's used to it, and then maybe up the rue dose to 2 grams. At the 2 gram mark for the rue I'll probably just leave it there and then experiment with acacia doses. Or hey, maybe 1G+1G will just be the perfect dose from the start. I'll let ya know!

Ah! I see where you're coming from, and yes I have experience playing around with the lack of tolerance specific to DMT

Where I was coming from was the sentiment also read from the same doctor is that spacing it out also allows for certain neural changes to be made. Doing the same psychedelic too soon could potentially hinder the solidification of those changes. I think they also said to cycle microdosing, (like with certain workout supplements).

And just for clarity, I'm not trying to deter you at all. I have plenty of moments where I take off daily. Just providing further considerations for your endeavor

Please do update us!

One love

Interesting! I had never heard that before, it was always presented to me as a tolerance issue. Thanks for the info : )

Totally agree. "Ayahuasca" is feared by the general public because people are basically being given heroic doses. Of course it's going to be intense.

The belief that Ayahuasca = "super intense mind f*ck" is so ingrained that folks don't think about it being done without a shaman. They don't realize it's the heroic dose that requires the shaman (trip sitter), not the medicine itself.

I've been minidosing (not microdosing) with pharmahuasca weekly to integrate with my mindfulness practice. It's been easy to find the desired dosage and effects. For me it's 100 mg harmine and about 25 mg DMT. Looking to lower that further. Not because of any nausea, more along the lines of "less is more".

1G rue +1G acacia was more of a minidose than a microdose - definitely felt the effects. Mild enough that I can go about my daily business, so I'm gonna stick with it, but a microdose would be a half or third or quarter of this acacia dose. Not sure, not gonna experiment, this works for me, but that's my recommendation for any who want to try. 1 G rue is enough for MAOI.

It came on in a half hour and lasted for four hours. Then was completely sober with no hint of having taken anything at all to begin with.

Of course. What I recall, spacing and cycling helps one to not be psychologically dependant on these substances (especially since most people microdosing don't want to be on a daily med) and allows for easier endemic changes to one's psyche.

Keep us in the loop in what works for you.

One love

Really interesting thread. I've newer done micodosing or daily med. (well apart from Antibiotics a few times) but I'm curious on what benefits/joy/healing would one get specifically from microdosing rue + DMT? Or is it at this levels indistinguishable from other common psychedelics like Psilocybin and LSD?

This is really interesting! I minidose 1cP-LSD regularly, but I've been curious about mini- or micro-dosing DMT. I thought about adding a little bit to my vape tank, but at such low doses I figured the effects are too fleeting to be worth the trouble.

When you take rue, is that just whole ground seeds? Do you have any idea what that equates to in mg of extracted harmalas? (I suppose they're not exactly equivalent since the seed provides a more sustained dose.) Did you get any side effects at that dose?

As far as I know people, we need to fully MAOI with 3.5 or so rue seeds?

I go for 0.5-1g mhrb and 3-5 g rue tea. Works wonders for mood and general life philosophy, but it is a mini dose and not a microdose.

These things should offer mental health benefits such as neurogenesis aswell, no?

The only thing with this is, if you want to microdose DMT orally, you have to take enough harmalas to fully inhibit MAO. Otherwise, you're just wasting spice.

So I feel like there's a hair to split, both in experiences and effects, between microdosing harmalas and microdosing DMT. Slightly different tools for different jobs, perhaps.

Unlike with mushrooms, there is a reverse tolerance with harmalas. Not all microdosing works similarly.

Yes I think so too, but you could redose the dmt through the hours while the MAOI is active, right?

Also, anyone got any scientific papers on micro/mini dosing ? Could be very healthy. I'd love to read some.

You have to to redose Harmalas to redose DMT, the gut's MAO-A inhibition only lasts about 2 hours max, so 2 hours after the Harmalas you'd have to dose more Harmalas to dose more DMT. Wonder if irreversible MAOI's would knock out the gut enzyme for longer, from what i'm to understand MAO-A is knocked out for 2 weeks with irreversible MAOI's, and Tyramine is an issue with irreversible MAOI's, so i'd imagine that it's because gut MAO-A is knocked out, so irreversible MAOI's would probably be a good way to be able to consume DMT multiple times, although it sucks you'd have to avoid Tyramine with them unlike with the Harmalas/reversible MAOI's.

Are you certain? I had a friend drink mhrb after rue, and 4 hours after the drink he wanted to redose - redosed only with mhrb, and had a full tripp again. Or am I getting something wrong here? Seems like the rue was active for a good 4-5 hours there at a minimum...

Well, there is a possibility, imo, that people with low CYP2D6 liver enzyme levels would have a longer duration of action compared to people with normal/average levels of CYP2D6.

CYP2D6 metabolizes Harmalas, and for example, if you inhibit a liver enzyme and take a substance that's metabolized by that enzyme, not only can the dosage be potentiated (it becomes more bioavailable) but the duration of action is also lengthened.

I've personally experienced this using Rue for inhibiting CYP1A2 to potentiate my sleep medicine Tizanidine which is metabolized by CYP1A2, and the Rue's CYP1A2 inhibition is able to potentiate the dosage of Tizanidine so i only need half or maybe even a quarter of the dosage, but the duration also gets extended from 4 hours to about 8 hours.

So in that same sense, if CYP2D6 levels are low, or if someone is on a medication or other substance which inhibits CYP2D6, it could potentiate the Harmala dosage and lengthen the duration of action, quite possibly including the duration of active gut MAO-A inhibition.

But that's just a thought. I have wondered about finding a good CYP2D6 inhibitor to extend the duration of action of the Harmalas, and i still wanna try that at some point. I know Harmalas themselves, while metabolized by CYP2D6, they also inhibit CYP2D6 to some extent, so apparently they can end up inhibiting their metabolization to some extent, which imo may have something to do with the reverse tolerance but i'm not sure, i do know that when Harmalas are consumed regularly and the reverse tolerance builds up, that the dosage is potentiated and the duration of action of the Harmalas is extended and stretched out by about 2 to 4 hours ime, but with that said anytime i've ever tried taking DMT past 2 hours after the Harmalas, it never worked, in fact i could feel the MAO-A inhibition of the gut waning around an hour and a half and by two hours the inhibition is gone. MAO-A can still be inhibited elsewhere, like in the brain, maybe the liver, but the gut's MAO-A inhibition is transitional and temporary.

I am pretty interested in this. Now, I am just a bit confused about the dosages given in this thread. I thought that you would need more than 1g (the amount OneIsEros took) of rue seeds to make the dmt orally active. Are you sure that the 1g of Acacia did something to you, maybe what you experienced were 'merely' the rue effects? Did you ever try rue on its own, was that different for you?

Or is it precisely the microdosing idea here that we just partly inhibit MAOI in the gut, and as such feel only 'a bit' of the dmt?

1 Gr of rue seeds contain like 75 to 100 mg harmalas.
I can extract 7 to 8 % when exhausting seeds overly, since extracting cannot reach all then it might reach to 10% potentially in de seeds, but that's just a wild guess.
I sure can activate deems with 75 (absolute minimum) to 100mg harmalas, it will however be short and not super deep, but hey we're talking mini dosing here.
The tryptamine feeling is definitely different than harmalas only, would be easily monitored.
1 Gr of acacia with say 2% dmt actives (with NMT even more so) gives 20mg deems. This will be enough to be felt.
Note that there are ayahuasca doses starting at 30mg dmt or so, this will be with a ton of vine of course that counts for a deep travel.

Mind that sensitivity differs from day to day and prolly person to person too, this makes it hard to estimate the effects. I reckon for micro/mini dosing and taking on responsible tasks, you don't want a full maoi and 25 mg deems, on a sensitive day this can send you deeper and by surprise. I can attest that!! Not talking about visuals and breaktrough at all, but it can render you not being able to do a task at hand. Been there done that. Doses do weird things sometimes.

Happy trials

I don't think 1 gram of Rue contains 75 to 100mgs of Harmalas, but idk, i could be wrong about that, usually i get about 4 to 4.5 grams of full spectrum extract from 100 grams of raw Rue seed doing like 4 to 6 separate boils in a big pot, seems a pretty consistent yield in all my days extracting, and times when i've done more boils than that i never really saw any higher of a yield, but idk maybe that's just me.

But yeah ime using low doses of Rue like 1 to 2 grams, it is enough to make DMT orally active but like you said Jees, it's very short and not that deep. Ime i've found that with inadequate MAO-A inhibition some amount of DMT can still be orally active but only partially active compared to a full dose, the DMT will come and go, and it's like i'll feel the some of the come up effect but not much more than that. As the Harmala/MAO-A inhibition dosage increases though more of the DMT becomes orally active and for longer. Though ime i don't have adequate MAO-A inhibition unless the DMT sticks around for 4 hours, any less than that and something went wrong somewhere.