How soluble are freebase dmt and freebase 5meo in water?

They should be nearly insoluble right? Especially in cold water?

that's correct.

Benzyme, can you explain what's physically happening when water is added to solid freebase and it becomes an oil? SWIM's been led to believe that freebase DMT is slightly soluble in water from what he's gathered on this site over the years, and while he's never heard of anyone being able to crystallize DMT in pure water, it has been done in water saturated with sodium carbonate. This reminds SWIM of how fumaric acid has been generally considered to be insoluble in water, yet it is soluble at low concentrations (though SWIM would imagine a saturated saline solution could cause it to precipitate out); is the case with freebase DMT similar?

Edit:
SWIM's a dolt, as freebase probably crystallizes in sodium carbonate solution because it starts out dissolved as a salt (as a fumarate, since the procedure was performed for conversion) and is still dispersed though insoluble when basified, and so it settles out slowly and evenly enough to form a crystal. SWIM still wonders whether it would behave in the same way if simply agitated in water or if it would require solutes (sodium carbonate) to facilitate the process.

the pyrrolic hydrogen (bonded to nitrogen) can lend itself to hydrogen bonding interactions as a proton donor
but the dominant forces of the overall molecule are Van Der Wahls interactions; therefore, the molecule is nonpolar,
and not readily soluble in water. it needs to be converted to a salt

So any apparent dissolution is likely due merely to droplets of DMT oil mixing and dispersing through the solvent, rather than any possibly slight dissolution.

The OP's comment about cold water has SWIM wondering what effect water brought to just below freezing would have on freebase oil; whether it would aid in forming a solid much more quickly or possibly force droplets to settle much more easily.

So if you basified an acidic water solution containing dmt salts, would the salt/acid still cleave from the dmt molecule leaving the insoluble precipitate of dmt freebase?

Yes

Claps hands

Excellent thanks infund!

It's all right here: https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Nontox...reebase_Spice_Conversion

Infundiblum's process is referenced for the second procedure and linked to in the reference.

Standing evidence that I need to read more of whats on the boards.
Thanks for the link and the information!

SWIM tried that and it didnt work.. he had his dmt in an acetic acid acidified solution, he based it definitely enough, and only a minuscule amount of goo precipitated after 4 days, while he is sure there was way more dmt in there... Dont know what SWIM could have done wrong there, he's pretty sure it was all right..

So if somebody else tries that with success please do share

Um yea so same story endless....

It was a cloud floating at the top so swim swirled it and it's gone. You can see it in solution but how in the hell do you get it out?

Try SWIM's method if that doesn't work out for you.

You guys do know I meant from liquid suspension right? Meaning say 200ml vinegar, than basify. Not from xtals...

how did you basify? 200ml of vinegar will possibly need alot to basify it sufficiently.


This is possibly due to underbasification. The top part of the solution was basified and dmt crashed out as a cloud, then it was mixed (net pH of the solution still not very basic) and dmt was redissolved.

Swim added 20 grams of NaOh, think swim should add more?

Irregardless there's no loss trying this method out. I don't understand why it wouldn't work honestly it should.

Swim is trying the fridge technique to possibly aid crystalization and help these things get a little more dense.

Thanks for the advice infund . I'm surprised we haven't exchanged words before!

it is indeed weird that it does not form a cloud and precipitate. The amount of NaOH added is enough to rack the pH high enough.

Could that be that freebase dmt is soluble in solutions of sodium acetate? sodium acetate is a by-product of the neutralisation of the vinegar with sodium hydroxide. It may keep the dmt somehow dissolved (just as detergents keep lipophilic substances dissolved in water).

Could it be because the dmt and 5meo are oxidized?

Well let's help swim get out of this mess it's not precipitating cleanly. How much Xylene would you use to pull maybe 500mg spice/5meo? 50 mls? Swim wants to use a minimal amount.

SWIM couldn't really say how much NPS would be required.

For future reference, though, SWIM would imagine that the vinegar could be evaped, then the resulting goo could be covered with sodium carbonate and moistened, spread out, and washed with a bit of water. However, evaping vinegar takes a long time unless SWIY has a food dehydrator handy (if SWIY does, the current solution could be evaped at a low temp, then spread and washed). This is why SWIM no longer works with large amounts of water unless he's evaping to retrieve salts. Using less water as SWIM does also helps to ensure that DMT N-Oxide would remain with the product, if that's so desired.

Are the freebase particles just sitting in place? If they settle to the bottom, it could be decanted and retrieved however SWIY'd like to retrieve it from there. Filtering is a possibility, but SWIM wouldn't really recommend it. This could be a good opportunity to try endlessness's proposed IPA method...or Infund, did you post somewhere that much of the IPA would remain in the water layer? Because that would likely keep a good deal of spice from separating out. If salts or base simply wind up in the top layer, however, that could easily be washed off later.

Swim added xylene and shook like crazy on and off for an hour. Waited over-night and now there is a cloud at the top of the jar underneath the xylene and one looming at the bottom of the jar. Maybe there wasn't enough base? Maybe the clouds are naoh.

Maybe the top cloud is 5meo(more oily looking) and the bottom cloud is n-oxide. hmmm.

edit - Tried pouring it off, and it all combined into a cloudy mixture again. Added 10 more grams naoh. Hopefully it will migrate into the xylene.