Norman said:

Norman is absolutely right, this dreamer has dreamed Ayahuasca with caapi and hawaiian psychotria over 65 times over the years, and it kicks the living %%!@%$ out of any kind of extracted xtals....here's why, this person agrees with me, he is Julian Palmer, perhaps you remember him, he used to be active for over 10 years, then he started writing books...this is what he said, and I completely agree with him. Take true Ayahuasca with actual hawaiian psychotria leaf brew mixed with caapi (the caapi can be an extract or brew from vine) and it will have you crying for your mommy for 90 minutes it is so powerful...but extracted xtals even at amounts 2x to 3x (120 to 180mg) what a natural dose is found in 30g of the leaf (natural 60mg) will not even compare quality or strength wise:

From "Articulations, On the Utilisation and Meanings of Psychedelics" (2015) by Julian Palmer:

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Here is what dream leaf brew looks like (see 1/2 pint jar below) after you boil 30 to 35 grams of hawaiian psychotria leaf for 25 minutes, then filter it thru a strainer, then filter it thru a cotton ball in a funnel (gets out all the irritating particles that cause nausea in the stomach and intestines). then boil it down to 2oz....incredibly strong..just like in the Jungle. I've had dream experiences where I could not move an inch after dream consuming...cause the visuals and visions were so dense with eyes open or closed for 90 minutes straight...I had to sit put in one place The Aya was so strong...quality wise it is incomparable to any kind of extraction. Totally blows it away. Use it the way the Shamans use it.

Just back away from the chemicals...(1) cacti, (2) Aya, (3) morning glory....they all kick ass without the use of chemical extractions...make a (1) tea, (2) make a brew, (3) make an acidic cold water extract (LSH in the morning glory seeds only survives in acidic water see here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=94737 )...YES, it may cost a little bit more to buy some hawaiian psychotria leaf...but it will be an experience you will never forget...it will be just like Jungle made Ayahuasca...you will be immersed from all directions in colors and visions...tracers that go onto infinity...none of this happens with xtal extracts...use the pure leaf brew...it will blow you away...and once you brew the leaf and filter it, boil it down to a few oz, then let it sit in freezer till frozen, then move to fridge, and any leftover mud will move to the very bottom, just decant off the top orange active layer, re-heat it and consume that at the exact same time as you Caapi---mix the two together--consume TOGETHER just as shamans do...this way it is the most active. Don't stray from the way the Shamans use it.

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Details of cotton ball stuffed in a funnel filtering:

You should love the cotton ball filtering, it works for filtering out the debris from Ayahuasca, Cactus, or Morning glory seeds, when and if the cotton clogs, you simply replace it with another and continue filtering, may take 2, 3 or more cotton ball chang-ings, but your entheogenic brew will come out super clean and active, your stomach and intestines will thank you--no nausea! Yes, coffee filters are useless. Have dreamed this method of filtering for decades--get's all the nauseating particles out but leaves the water soluble actives in solution. Beats the heck out of useless coffee filters which will not allow anything to flow.

To use: just put one cotton ball in a large clean funnel to make it sediment free which reduces or eliminates nausea to the intestines...have two of these funnels with a cotton ball stuffed in them sitting in a large tall jar sitting side by side so that you can pour off liquid from funnel #1 into adjacent "funnel in a jar #2" to continue filtering once the 1st jar's cotton clogs up or slows down the flow too much, continue pouring off the funnel's contents back and forth changing out the cotton when or if it clogs.

When you are done with your cotton ball in a funnel filtering, take all your spent cotton and combine it in your hand into a single wad, make a fist and wring out any leftover liquid into a final funnel in a jar with cotton ball stuffed in it, to get every last bit of particle free liquid. You will want to use the larger size black funnels that you can find in your nearest automotive store, buy several of them.

I wonder if the DMT dose found in 30g leaf is being underestimated due to extractions being inefficient?
When we brew, we lose some, but when we do A/B extractions we may be losing much more?

Thank you for writing this tregar.

I've had only one pharmahuasca experience so far and I have no ayahuasca brew experiences so far. You can read about my pharma experience here.

The experience was a success. One thing that I feel I should mention is that the DMT extract I was working with was a toluene extract of MHRB. Supposedly the toluene grabs the 'full-spectrum' goodies while naphtha does not. My toluene extract was a reddish goo, compared to the white crystals I get from naphtha.

I think I will try an experience with my white DMT crystals and syrian rue tea and compare the experiences.

EDIT:
I strongly agree that cactus tea is much richer in effects compared to isolated mescaline. I am not sure if there are any mystical dimensions that are compromised when extracting with chemicals, however I know that hordenine which is found in cactus is a MAO-B inhibitor which will potentiate the effects of mescaline. Other compounds in the tea most likely add to the experience as well. Worth mentioning is the rich alkaloid soup in peyote cactus, which you can see in the link. -> https://isomerdesign.com...KAL/peyote.php?domain=pk There is no doubt in my mind that the richness has much do to with sought after effects of peyote.

I apologise for the offtopic, however I do find this relevant for the discussion.

There actually is only 60 to 70mg in 30g hawaiian leaf, it was confirmed years ago by two people on different forum doing a small scale extraction. The dynamics of digestion is what plays a major factor, we may never understand why it blows extracted xtals out of the water, but it does I guarantee it.

Have in dreams hawaiian psychotria brought directly from Hawaii for cheap, look for hawaiian psychotria and you will find it when you have the means. the bay no longer let's anyone sell even caapi extracts or hawaiian psychotria, they suck big time. They won't even really let anyone sell certain cacti anymore either....


MODERATOR: Political content removed, please no politics here.

I am not convinced that ayahuasca kicks the living ‘shit’ out of any kind of extracted xtalls. This may be true for some, but not for me.

In my experience changa of plain caapi leaves and free base DMT is way more intense. And the visuals are far better.

Wait! before you go any further...

This guy claimed a lot, and stole a lot of fame and ideas from other people.

Please read more on this forum why we have this sentiment towards him and why you cannot trust him on his word, he is not a solid source for information.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

If someone where to say to me dosage is not the sole factor for trip intensity I'd agree.

But I wouldn't agree with the ideas stated here, that one method of administration is "superior" to another, solely due to its traditional heritage. This is an argument fallacy.

Is that girl another of your favorite DJ's tregar?

İ also believe that caapi dominated brews are superior, and I believe the same for ayahuasca analogues with rue (being dominated by rue is superior). I also believe that forming deep relationships with local plants is superior to working with imported plant materials. I cannot impose these as objective truths on everybody. Everybody has different circumstances in life...

Plant spirits vs alkaloids is quite a topic.

I've taken mimosa/rue, mimose/vine, chacruna/vine, chacruna/rue. I've also taken pharmahuasca, mainly extracted rue alks/extracted dmt, though on a few occasions I've taken extracted vine alks/extracted dmt.

[though i've typically always drank vine, never extracted it aside from the few times for pharmahuasca, and also having extracted vine alks for changa a couple of the times I'd made my blend]

This is just my experience/opinion, but I've had some very intense/deep experiences with the extracted route, it was very crystalline, very clear & concise,very bright, and the colors and overall aesthetic & architectural style of ir - they were in a very similar vein to many of my changa breakthroughs, an unmistakeable realm once you're there witnessing it.

I was actually put off from pharmahuasca for about two years when I'd worked with it many years back [was my second time working with it]. I'd taken around 250mg rue alks with 75mg extracted dmt. It was incomprehensibly strong, it was very powerful. The inside/outside dichotomy was pretty much absent. At points during the brunt of it, all I could do was give up and lie there on my chair, unaware of anything related to myself, my body, or the external world. Words just dont do it justice, not in the slightest.

Although I know from all the times I've drank teas, for me there was always this more thorough aspect to the experience. It felt as if there was many more facets to the overall unfoldment of it and as it was happening. It did indeed seem to push several other buttons for me, versus taking the extracted alkaloids. These experience did seem to have more depth to them - mentally and physically, versus the extracted route. Especially physically lol.

To be fair also, drinking teas - there were a few occasions to where it put me off for close to the same amount of time as when I'd been put off from pharmahuasca.

my 2c

I've tried naphtha-pulled, freeze-precipitated DMT orally and didn't like it. Vaped it was good though, but of course different in so many ways that it's like comparing apples and oranges.
Vegetable oil pulls from MHRB, salted out with vinegar, were good orally too. As profound as ayahuasca, but with less unpleasant body effects. The dose was hard to quantify though, so I can't compare the potency.

dragonrider said:
If only! She is Sophia Rokhlin, the co-author of "when plants dream". Moderator removed her photo. Damn good book on Ayahuasca. She wrote book with Daniel Pinchbeck, one of my all time favorite authors. The classic is "Antipodes of the Mind" with Prof. Benny Shanon, (Oxford University) on Ayahuasca who took her (mother Ayahuasca, master plant teacher) over 125 times.

For the price of what people spend on chemicals, they could buy great quality psychotria.

http://www.friskyradio.com

Why post her picture and not a link to her book?

This thread looks a lot like just simple advertising.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

75g of Hawaiian fresh-like-you-just-picked-it-5-seconds-ago Chacruna did not even begin to rival the intensity of a 150mg DMT pharma trip. Sure was pretty though. I might have to try with more Chacruna soon, but I still think this just varies from person to person.

The cottonball method is something I will have to try. Thank you for that!

I believe this determination has been made by performing chemical analysis of the leaves themselves, rather than from extraction. However, the DMT potency has been known to vary significantly just depending on the time of the day the leaves are harvested as well.

I guess everyone has their own experience and preferences.

For me, after a couple of decades of different modes of preparation, doses and contexts of ingestion, I think there is enough variability that pretty much all modes (aya/analogues/extracts) are valid and can, in the right context, elicit a great life-transforming experience.

This is my experience as well.

And mine as well.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

And tregar, it could be argued that your ayahuasca is not real (if we are to play that game) if it's made from dried material. Personally I've found a special depth to brews made with fresh vine. If people are not finding a significant difference between extracts and vine brews, this could be because the vine brews are dried vine brews. Fresh vine brew vs dried vine brew is where the difference is.

As for clearing up the leaf, in the OP you posted about cotton ball filtering and the freeze-thaw-decant tek. Do you do both? Have you found one to be better than the other?

That difference is very hard to separate imo because if you are getting fresh vine, you are probably in a very specific setting that allows it, in a certain time of your life, with certain expectations and intentions. To really have a more accurate perception youd have to control all these variables and have many different experiences with each preparation, over a long period of time, ideally blind testing.

When I was still living in Brazil, during many years I made aya from fresh vines some of which i had planted and harvested myself with a friend, taking it in the middle of the jungle. Or taken with indigenous people with fresh aya made in the amazon, or with daime people and their own plantations participating in the brewing (feitio) For the most part I had great experiences, but it was also great when I took pharma or analogues or dried vine aya, in different parts of Brazil or in Europe..That has been pretty much with every psychedelic for me, it's most of the times positive, sometimes difficult, sometimes fun, sometimes life changing, and overall a great tool for self improvement. I may have preferences in different moments but I dont suppose they are absolute accurate judgements on the nature and value of these preparations.

Im skeptical of people making claims about perceived differences of psychedelic preparstions if they dont even consider the possibility of other variables affecting their perception. It think it is very common that people fall into fallacious "appeal to nature" or "appeal to tradition". Even different indigenous groups will have their own contradicting views on what is right or wrong.

If you want the "real" aya, why are you mixing dmt containing plants in the first place, if most likely originally it was a caapi-only consumption? Or why not make a cold brew instead of using heat? Or why not just chew on caapi, if the spirits are in caapi, are you sure they are water soluble, or maybe you are throwing some aya spirits away when discarding the solids?? Straight eating the vine would be the real "full spectrum" no?

Ive even given dmt crystals for an indigenous shaman (pajé ) to smoke and he loved it, considered an equaly spiritual and valid experience and wanted more. Maybe another shaman would not have accepted it. They are all right in their own way, or wrong.

So instead of making absolute claims about whats best for everybody, id suggest people do share their experiences and preferences as they are obviously significant to themselves, but with proper caveats /disclaimers , recognizing the subjectiveness and the limits of their claims and conclusions.