I worked with my own "Caapi copy" obtained from Rue alkaloids and semi-synthetic THH for a few months and thought it was a great medicine almost indistinguishable from Ayahuasca, but last week I sat in ceremonies with traditional tea from the Amazon and noticed a big difference. The difference wasn't so much in the spiritual effects as in the physical ones; this is not to say the spiritual experience cannot be affected indirectly by the physical qualities of the brew.

The jungle tea has a strong gravity pull towards the Earth. It feels heavy and grounded.
The copy feels very light. I missed the heaviness of the jungle tea.

What could it possibly be that gives the tea its heaviness? Is it some minor alkaloids, or non-alkaloid components? Tannins? Is there any way to get those from other sources to reproduce that heaviness?
A friend of mine has suggested that Russian Olive tea brings those qualities, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, and he says it suppresses the DMT effects when combined with DMT plants.

Most of my last traditional brews (those contained a series of admixture plants and were brewed in SA) floored me heavy wise, even breathing looked like a too much of an effort to handle. I got washed with a sort of parallising exhausting feeling. It was not so much trip heaviness but merely a physical thing or so it felt. The only time I was up to the challenge was when I drank a tobacco ceremony the morning before (loads of purging), that enabled me to rally the ayahuasca ceremony in the evening like a champ.

I've never have that kind of exhaustion when drinking home with extracts. Then, it's more the trip intensity that floors me.

This seems to fit with what you say.

Adding harmaline increases the heavyness and dizziness and possibly the dream-like visions in combination with caapi's other 2 highest alkaloids. I think all 3 work in tandem, but if you notice the attached paper below, many of the Santo Daime brews, Shuar Indian & UDV brews are harmaline or nearly harmaline free after their ritual preparation. See page 2 of 5 attached paper. Multiply each number in the table x 100 to get the mg amount of each in the brew as each brew is 100ml or 3.3 oz.

I'm not saying harmaline only is responsible for the heavy feeling, but I've had high harmaline heavy brews before and I could hardly get up to go to the bathroom, I almost had to crawl to get there. More nausea and dizziness with increasing amounts of harmaline.

Also see harmaline entry in TIHKAL:

https://erowid.org/libra...ne/tihkal/tihkal13.shtml

I think the heaviness is at least in part deep healing energy.

I love that deep healing energy. I'm just wondering what in the physical world mediates it.

@Tregar: Yes, harmaline is said to be heavy, but as you say it occurs in brews in small amounts, so it must be something else.
When I get around to brewing Caapi again, I might save a little bit aside for a simple base extraction to bioassay and see if the heaviness is retained.

It's a form of Prana. The energy itself is conscious. Imo, the deep healing energies come from the interaction of plant and human energies and the consciousness/soul and spirit of both plants and humans.

I concur that the heaviness has a place and function somehow so no regrets but the particular ceremonial conduct required sitting up and tuning in, not lying down. This I had some difficulties with.

I felt the plants wanted me to lay down and go in, I want to answer that call to go broke physically but the conduct did not allow me loosing track of the ceremony. It was discouraged to lay down and I felt like in a battle between [being present in the ceremony] and [answering the call to go deep in, paralysed]. This was no fun and I've stopped those kind of ceremonies because of that. These were Peruvian jungle inspired ceremonies.

I haven't done SD ceremonies, but I know they dance and chant and also encourage to not lay down, they advocate staying with-it upright, building stamina and call it firmesa or something. They do that to build a sort of flow together. This would not succeed if everyone was 'out' under a blanket.
I've heard about dedicated brews for SD containing a lower caapi/dmt ratio than jungle style, just in order to make it more easy to stand up all the time. I don't know if that is true.

One thing I've learned working shifts is that tiredness cannot be out-smarted no matter how or why you want that. I've learned to listen to my body and not ceremonial formats. Even on extracts there's a time I am unable to anything else than giving my body rest and oxygen by slow deep breath-work. Doing anything else feels forced, and for what?

Maybe someone can add reasons why it is good to fight for firmesa fully against body signals, I sure like to know. I already know the argument to build group-flow together, just like to know of potential other reasons?

Last night I drank my 'Caapi copy' again and realized I may not have been expressed myself precisely in the original post.

The heaviness I'm talking about is not so much about how easy or difficult it is for the body to stay present (firmeza), as it is a certain hard-to-describe feeling. The mixtures of isolated alkaloids affect my ability to maintain firmeza no less than vine brews do.

The alkaloid extracts, however, feel 'in the head', airy and astral, whereas the vine brews are more 'in the gut'. It's a sensation I miss very much, because it brings a certain Earth-Sky balance. And a certain wild, primal, tribal energy / vibe I love. The choice of the Light-bearing admixture (Chacruna vs the non-traditional ACRB I work with) may also play a role here.


The question of why firmeza is a good thing is one I've pondered for a long time. My teachers, who have a strong Santo Daime background, emphasize the need for firmeza. It probably deserves its own thread.

I'm no shaman but this seems a little odd to me. If the body wants to lie down and sink in, why fight it? I find it difficult to do anything but lie down when I've taken a good dose, I couldn't imagine being almost forced to sit up.

I love that caapi feeling, even if it is debilitating in large doses. On my most intense voyage I decided to crawl to the bathroom, much like tregar is saying. I maaaaybe could have made it walking but knew it would be safer to just get over it and crawl I agree that it is healing and grounding, as well as providing an earth-sky balance.

I've participated in a ceremony with perhaps 15 people where there was amazing group flow with some lying down and some sitting up. Although one man who was there sat up in lotus pose the entire time it seemed. He appeared like he had an enormous amout of energy flowing through him. That's one reason i can see people sitting up like that. The energy flow in the body.

One more thing. I don't know what kind / color of vine it was that I had in the recent ceremonies, but there may be difference between, say, yellow and black, the latter being heavier.

Have those of you who work more with Caapi and its different strains experienced such differences?

As for sitting up vs lying down, in most of the circles I've worked with sitting up is encouraged to varying degrees, depending on the circle. But in the circle I have the closest relationship with, there is no expectation that the participants sit up and maintain presence, except for the facilitators.

I've only worked with yellow and red, but the yellow I had was still quite "heavy."