Please consider this post obsolete. Read edit below.

I had my first smoking freebase 5meo-dmt experience with some friends the other day. Wow, great stuff !

Want to share the smoking technique we perfected over the night...

We used two Glass Vapor Genie's, two people smoking at the same time. One was loaded with the Volcano Solid Valve Liquid Pad, the other with the VaporGenie Concentrate Pad. Both pads worked. Personally I prefer the volcano pad. (1) It has better air flow, (2) the smoke feels less harsh on my lungs, (3) it didn't need to be burned clean as often. The volcano pad needs to be cut to the right size to fit the GVG. Cut it so that it fits in the bottom chamber with as little space on the sides as possible (needs to be pushed in /pulled out through the narrow neck with tweezers).

Initially we had occasional trouble getting all the smoke in. After each round we re-toked the GVG to see how much 5meo remained in the vape. Sometimes this was quite a lot, giving the person smoking the leftovers (of both devices) a strong /breakthrough experience. Eventually we improved the smoking technique to get everything in without relying on luck.

This is how we did it:

1 - Use a GVG, a concentrate pad and an arch lighter. Place the concentrate pad as low as possible in the GVG. Push it down onto the internal pipe screen. Weight out a dose of cruched 5meo crystals and carefully drop it on the middle of the pad inside the GVG. Keep the GVG neck vertical, also while starting to smoke. This way all powder stays in the middle of the pad and none melts into the glass.

2 - Light the ceramic filter with the flame touching it for 5 seconds to pre-heat it. Don't inhale yet at this point.

3 - First exhale all air from your lungs, then -slowly- (!) inhale while lighting the ceramic filter. Circle the flame touching the ceramic filter. Hold the GVG with a hand at the curve on the bottom. When it starts to get very hot, move the lighter a bit higher, so only the tip of the flame touches the ceramic. Keep inhaling slowly until your lungs are completely full. Hold your breath for +10 seconds (preferably +15).

4 - Redo step 3. After two inhalations you should have all the smoke in. Just to be sure inhale a 3th time and keep the smoke in while lying down. Note that during the 3th inhalation you will feel extremely trippy, probably even at the 2nd. Have someone else do the lighter work and guide you. Be strong and keep going, you won't regret.

Note: the amount of heat created holding the lighter this close would burn freebase DMT, but only vape 5meo - so don't worry. Our main mistake in the beginning was applying too little heat (lighter too far away) and inhaling too hard (too fast), resulting in not all 5meo evaporating.

EDIT:
According to others the dosages below seem too high. After trying 5meo with the e-mesh this is correct. With the e-mesh 6-7 mg is very strong. The high doses stated below might be due to bad vape technique /device and/or the compound being 5meo-dmt-hcl (a salt form) instead of freebase.

For 5meo e-mesh vaping see:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...1068132&#post1068132

We found the optimal dosage of 5meo-dmt to be 20 mg. 15 mg was a hit and miss. 10 mg was too weak. Counter intuitively a large dose is easier to handle than a smaller one due to ego resistance at lower levels. At higher levels all you can do is experience. Either being in an ego-less state of oneness or floating on a wave between self-consciousness and infinity. Having said that, I recommend beginners to start at a lower dosage and work your way up. First 12 mg, then 16 mg and 20 mg. This gets you used to the body load. Remember that higher dosages usually lead to nicer experiences.

Enjoy & be safe!

Are you sure you had 5-MeO-DMT?

My understanding is that a typical dose of 5-MeO is in the 5 – 10mg range.

20 mg of N,N-DMT properly vaporized in a GVG can produce a strong breakthrough for many people. I can’t imagine what 20mg of 5-MeO-DMT rapidly and efficiently vaporized might do.

For safety’s sake, I suggest you stop recommending people take large doses of 5-MeO-DMT (20mg). It’s possible such a large dose could cause respiratory arrest and death.

I have to agree with gibran here. I've only smoked doses 5mg and lower, and they have been incredibly overpowering. The dosages you recommend are dangerous, and I was initially questioning if you had 5-MeO as well before I even got to the dosage section of your report. When you talk about things getting trippy on that third hit...maybe second hit...I was thinking to myself how this does not line up with my experience in the slightest. For me, 5-MeO has a significantly quicker come-up than N,N, and when that vapor is in my lungs, within 5 seconds or less, my energetic space is getting overloaded - and fast. I couldn't imagine taking two, much less 3 hits, and that's at the significantly lower dosage levels than you describe.

Were it not that the entire group (+8 people) experienced the same effect, I wouldn't have stated the 5meo dosages above. It was my first time and only had one proper hit. For most others this was their third session (around 3 hits per session - also with misses). We all agreed that 20 mg was a good strong desirable dose for us.

To clarify: For me my 1st 12mg try was not vaped properly, the 2nd 20mg try I chickened out half way, the final 3th 20mg try went good. After the 1st inhalation (+10 seconds?) I wanted to lay down, but my smoking buddy told me to re-toke. This means I already felt effects after the first toke, or I wouldn't have layed down. After the second toke (+30 seconds?) I felt -extremely- spaced out. I had total tunnel vision and could barely make out the pipe and it took considerable effort to smoke the 3th toke. However, the onset was slower than dmt for all of us. Definitely longer than 5 seconds.

Your reactions made me think though..

First of all, yes it's real 5meo-dmt. One of us bought it (can't remember, maybe 8 or 10 years ago) from a Chinese pharma company when it was still legal. He lab tested it, result was positive. However, I've asked but he couldn't find the lab report anymore. He assumed it was freebase and not hcl. Not having seen the lab report myself I can't say if they only tested on drug type or also on purity (maybe it was cut with a non reactive product, though I don't suspect this). Another thing is that the powder (which needed to be crushed) seemed quite damp. Probably due to condensation after taking it in and out of the freezer (where its stored) for the third time recently.

If the old age (oxidation) reduced the potency, and/or its hlc instead of freebase (less potent by weight), and/or if the water moist added weight then in theory the dosage needed could have been increased compared to pure new dry produce. Also, the moist could explain why it took such effort to vaporize it efficiently (multiple tokes to vape 12mg with many misses) and the delay in onset. Maybe. Like I said I'm not very experienced.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=69756

https://www.erowid.org/c..._dmt/5meo_dmt_dose.shtml

I wouldn't be surprised if 20mg of our old damp 5meo (hcl?) could in theory be an effective dosage of 15mg. The effect of smoking 20mg was definitely strong /very strong. According to the info above 5mg is a light/moderate dose. So what you guys are saying is that smoking dosages of 5meo in the strong /very strong range is extremely dangerous? Frankly I wasn't aware of this. Psychologically I can handle strong dosages (I vape 40-50mg nn-dmt, have done 60mg - yet I dont advocate this), but if there is such great physical danger with 5meo why aren't there more warnings online?

https://www.erowid.org/c...mt/5meo_dmt_health.shtml

DMT is one of those things where I've always felt that you could have a lifetime supply of it, and if you didn't know what to do with it, you wouldn't think it would do much at all. Smoking/vaping it is such a delicate process (not to mention the complexity of taking it orally), that if not done properly, what may have had the potential for a visionary experience is substituted with mild euphoria. I don't reserve such feelings for 5-MeO however. Yeah, you should be careful not to burn it. Yeah, you should hold it in. Yeah, you can even take it orally...but you smoke a sprinkle of it haphazardly, and there's no question that it is powerful.

Here's a thread from about a year ago: 5-MeO-DMT Concerns,
and here's an Erowid account.

Although there aren't many incidents of respiratory arrest reported, the fact that there are any should be cause for concern.

No way I could ever manage a 2nd pull of 5meo. I could barely make the 10 count holding in the first one before I was somewhere very far from here.

Thanks for the links gibran2. People should be made more aware of this potential danger.

A couple of my friends went to a toad ceremony afterward. Unfortunately I couldn't join. They smoked toad extracted meo from a glass pipe. Everyone experienced the dosage being more intense than the 20mg we smoked at home.

One of them stopped breathing during the session to which the shaman simply said "breath, breath" and he started again. No recollection of this what so ever afterwards. Somehow the unconscious body received the message. They were told a stop of breath happens from time to time. The shaman didnt seem to worry too much. But I suspect this to be the reason why most north American toad smoking ceremonies are done standing up, next to a river. In case someone faints and stops breathing, cold water to the rescue? If you do it at home definitely ALWAYS have someone at your side looking over your shoulder!

Another thing which happened to many people during the ceremony is they start moving around (shamans genty guiding them back) and sometimes even shouting - with no recollection of it after come down (feeling great even). Like soulless zombies, interesting..

I'm still guesing our meo was old /damp /cut (don't copy the dosages I meantioned). Trying to get my hands on some myself, but that isn't easy..

I agree, super important. Have an aware sitter. Walking around, yelling, screaming etc. does happen often. I know of a story where a "shaman" partook in the ceremony himself while the the person was tripping. He came to and found the person had jumped into a cenote and drowned. Very sad and not the way to do things.

this erowid report is not correct, and is irresponsible and not properly researched, IMO
negative physical reactions Have been reported, even if small in number

We think we need information about shelf life of 5-MeO. Lets say we got some 5-Meo from 10 years ago and stored it at room temperature.....

Wouldn't it be largely oxidized ? If it's a freebase?

There are reports of people smoalking 16mg and just feeling a slight buzz, while others experience a huge light tidal wave at 5mg....could that be the reason? Old, oxidized vs fresh material?

Somewhere we read that it has to be stored at - 20° Cel? Is that true?

I agree with Intezam here.

Can anyone give us any information on shelf life of 5-meo?

Does it help to store it cool or frozen?

Does it help to store it in a jar of CO2 or maybe completely inert gas?

Thanks to anyone who enlighten us here

..the thing is, Intezam, that there was a fair amount of discussion of 5meo in the 90s, and one of the points that deeply concerned people was the extreme variation of reactions to it based on dosage..yes 16mg a 'buzz' for some, a traumatic head re-arrangement for others, with identical material (meaning regardless of oxidisation, and from lab grade)..that a compound has such wide response difference worried some, including Shulgin (who from recollection i think commented on this)...unpredictable..without adequate explanation

another thing about 5meo is that it has some MAOI activity itself, which as well as adding to possible complications in some, needs to be taken into account..this was commented on by the late D.M. turner, who noted physical symptoms to aged cheeses etc, and further more (and he was a serious tripper) he became disturbed by what seemed to be 'reverse tolerance' in him with repeated use (i.e. getting stronger with successive administrations) which led him to want to give it a rest and rethink..

basically, it's a different beast to most other tryptamines, and a strange beast at that..

hence, along with respiratory problems in some, and a small number of ongoing psychosis episodes from single large doses, people were urging caution and more research in the old Entheogen Review days..
again, i don't say it is without use or merit, but a wide reaching confirmed fairly safe thing like DMT i suggest it is not.
i ask: what are people looking for here?

on 5meo oxidisation rates i cannot say much, except that, if it is like DMT in that regard then 10 years room temperature exposed would produce minimal oxidisation..based on fresh lab sample variances in effects i personally don't think it's a big factor.. but of course nothing is known about the effects of this oxide, so what it does or doesn't is a mystery

We can't speak for our others, but 5-Meo has gained our interest in being able to trigger (in some persons) to consciously experience clean, clear, radiance of noorani noor (clear light) of deep, dreamless sleep....so that is of interest. Scary as it might be.



But what IF the oxydation/degeneration process is different from NN-DMT?

BTW: we've read your other post regarding that group incident....that is truly terrible. Any news?

..i get what people get from 5meo...i more question if it's 'for everyone', and whether it should be as widely promoted to entheogen novices as is presently happening..dmt i feel has a wider 'appeal' and safety net..

the oxidation issue may change effects..i don't know...not enough data...i was pointing out that, with lab-grade non oxidised 5meo (Shulgin etc) the effects were widely variant in individuals from similar dosages..

re the group incident report, all i know is that the guy isn't sure how long it'll take to recover, the doctors are not sure what factors resulted in neurological impairment, he is ok enough to have basically prevented the administrator of the 5meo from returning to his country to keep doing these kinds of gigs..essentially he feels he was not cared for, in both the 'ceremony', and in that the person giving it really doesn't know what they are doing in being able to provide care, advice or information on physical reactions..

it's yet another case of an unpredicted odd reaction to 5meo in a small number of people..
personally i think the MAOI aspect of 5meo could possibly lead to complications in individuals, as response rates vary a lot in individuals in that regard, and could lead to the compound 'contraindicating' itself...
the respiratory issues for some individuals is unexplained and needs more research...

These are very legitimate concerns. And they keep us being wary, just as with regard to the cocktail of little known ß-carbolines, 5-MeO and DMT in stressed phalaris and the (unknown) stuff that causes sheeple brains to turn blue.....

..i pondered how to respond to this Intezam, and this is what comes to me:
the question of sheep dropping dead (which i assume you mean by blue brains, and which is not common) is the acute Phalaris toxicity which is 1) not the alkaloids (from recent research) 2) is a component which would not make it to a non polar extraction 3) is the result of grazing kilograms of grass leading to nitrogen build up and the inability of brain to break down nitrogen..this is covered elsewhere on the nexus..it's an oral ingestion of whole grass in large amounts issue..
this leads to the conclusion that Phalaris is a reasonably safe option for smoked tryptamines..

however, as far as the alkaloids of the genus go, despite un-needed concerns i think over gramine,etc, i think possibly the most dangerous alkaloid in there is 5meo-DMT (and yes with beta carbolines).. known strains like AQ1 and Big Medicine do not present this issue.
certainly in animal experiments 5meo-DMT was the most toxic phalaris alkaloid, with the lowest LD 50...

Without any doubt this substance is able to trigger the breakthrough to pure consciousness existing without any form or perception - I guess pure white light is a conceptual way of representing this when concepts can no longer exist.

I've been experimenting with 5-meo since January and am astounded by this substance. As someone who has sought the understanding of consciousness for so many years I have found that this is something that will rip away any sense of self, any process of thought or emotion, any sense of perception and return you to what IS. It is truly death but death that reveals the absolute.

I always exercise extreme caution with any new substance - starting with doses of 5 mg and working up in 2's and 3's. I find 15 mg is for me a release dose (which is very common). Dr Octavio Rettig and Dr Gerardo Sandoval have both administered the 5-meo containing toad venom to very large numbers of people without major incidents I believe. Octavio has given around 8000 doses and "Dr Gerry" around 1600 as far as I know. Dr Gerry reports only one incident when someone had drunk syrian rue tea beforehand (and lied to him about it) where there was a bad reaction. Despite the reassurance that such large numbers can give, I do believe there's a very real danger with people taking (unnecessarily) large dosages such as 30 mg where respiratory arrest and heart failure can occur. Always start low and increment has to be standard advice. Don't mix with any other substances. Have a relatively bland diet for 24 hours beforehand and obviously nothing that is a MAOI or that could trigger MAOI production in the body.

I've certainly not found any reverse tolerance as mentioned above. HPPD (flashbacks) can definitely occur but nothing unduly worrying.

i'm happy for you NotTwo..
i essentially make two key points about 5meo in this thread :

1) that it has exhibited extreme reactions in small percentage of people, without explanation, and exhibits an extremely wide dosage response range
2) it is, compared with DMT, an inherently greater risk, taking relative LD50s and MAOI contraindication into effect...hence i personally would assign a high responsibility factor in working with it..

i am well aware of its effects, and think it helps particularly stubborn mindset to dissolve..but there are other ways to do this..
it's been 'around' quite a while, and was discussed and experimented with a lot in the first half of the 90s
and in my experience the majority of the 'old guard', the experienced of this vintage, would issue a warning about this compound..especially ongoing repeated use..
there's good reason for this too..
sure, proceed with caution, but heed also the warning of those from old days..

the idea of widely promoting it is of particular concern to a few very experienced entheogen researchers and seekers i know..

which brings me to the example you chose to mention..

is he a medical doctor? i'd like to see some first aid response data..?

the person you chose to mention, to my knowledge, uses toad exudate (or claims to)..
now, that is not just pure 5meo-DMT..can he provide GCMS evidence of what it is? has he refined and purified it?
toad exudate is slightly different to pure 5meo..not as strong, but more complicated for want of a better word..

but if it's the kind of numbers you're talking about the person you chose to mention..then that's a lot of toad milking..
here the aspect of animal exploitation (commercially) of what's officially a threatened species comes into play, and i think people need to have a good look at what they're involved in here..
has the ego been destroyed momentarily only to re-wire bigger?

i tell it how i feel it, NotTwo.. you too, no doubt..

as far as pure 5meo goes, i would like to see a lot more documented physio-research on this one, before i'd personally suggest it to most, let alone advocate it in the way i do a few plant medicines..

safe journeys all

I am going to echo other people here, and state that if 15mg is hit and miss for you(or anyone) I would suggest that your method of vaporization could maybe be less than optimal. In my experience 5mg is hit or miss..once I hit 7mg I am gone. There is nothing left to be missed.

Be careful and raise your dose by only a mg or 2 until you find the spot you want to be at. I suggest people start at no more than 5mg, and 2mg is a good start dose.