I kind of have the view that what humans are doing right now is generally unnatural and destructive. But it occurred to me I may be very wrong, even though emotionally I am still attached to that feeling.

Everything in the universe eventually is broken down and destroyed, eventually being recycled into something else. Things consume things, and those things get consumed again and the the consumers get consumed etc. An endless process of breakdown and consumption. Of course out of this comes birth and construction of new things But for the lion that eats the zebra, he will not see the bacteria that breaks down his stool, or how it becomes the manure for new plants to grow. Maybe I can not see what will become of our broken down earth.

Maybe what is unnatural is to try and stop this process by preserving what is here. Trying to safe this species or that rain forest. Granted it appears that preserving these things is benificial to our continued existence. But does the universe see us any different than the dinosaurs in the necessity to exist?

Perhaps there is morally correct and wrong ways to allow this process to carry out. I am adverse to unneeded suffering in any capacity, although the universe seems to be in-different to it.

Are we different because we can see this and attempt to stop it or control it? It seems for the most part most of us don't actually. Out of all organisms there are always a few that malfunction in their natural process.

Really though I'm not overly conflicted by this. I mean it does consume much of my thought, that is what is the proper path for me being a human. But deeply I think I know that all I can do is look at each one of my decisions as they come, listen to my heart, mind, and gut, then make the best decision I can at that moment. It's better than being stuck in a state of inaction forever contemplating the "right" path.

Micro-plastic in the ocean is worrying, but as we speak I don't doubt mother-evolution is on the task of creating a protein that breaks it down, in the belly of some strange new organism with a polymer exoskin. Problem there is the race against carbonic acidification which Ol' Poseidon is unfortunately coming in second place to primate ingenuity.

Some plants are annuals - they only live for a season before dying and setting seed.

From germination to fruition, a beautifully complex architecture of biochemical interactions develops: species of proteins and enzymes proliferating, genes flipping on and off, and signals flying back and forth like a chemical internet. The machinery of life develops, glitters, and ultimately dies.

That's how the system works, it doesn't matter how elegant or holy the construction is, eventually apoptotic signals build up, networks go off line, and it all withers away.

Maybe Earth is an annual and we are it's seeds. Maybe the life cycle of a planet goes from the first seeds of life that land from outer space, which evolve into intelligent life, which bleed the resources dry, and ultimately move on, either as a civilization, or just some molecular building blocks or genetic blueprints.

Blessings
~ND

Even though the universe is indifferent to the comings and goings of earth, whatever happens to our planet matters to us.

If one views the resources of this earth with indifference to the consequences, then that will lead to blind consumption.

Perhaps you've read this story.

"Once upon a time, there was an old man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach every morning before he began his work. Early one morning, he was walking along the shore after a big storm had passed and found the vast beach littered with starfish as far as the eye could see, stretching in both directions.

Off in the distance, the old man noticed a small boy approaching. As the boy walked, he paused every so often and as he grew closer, the man could see that he was occasionally bending down to pick up an object and throw it into the sea. The boy came closer still and the man called out, “Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?”

The young boy paused, looked up, and replied “Throwing starfish into the ocean. The tide has washed them up onto the beach and they can’t return to the sea by themselves,” the youth replied. “When the sun gets high, they will die, unless I throw them back into the water.”

The old man replied, “But there must be tens of thousands of starfish on this beach. I’m afraid you won’t really be able to make much of a difference.”

The boy bent down, picked up yet another starfish and threw it as far as he could into the ocean. Then he turned, smiled and said, “It made a difference to that one!”

adapted from The Star Thrower, by Loren Eiseley (1907 – 1977)"

The universe wont care if you save a whale. But the whale will get to live. The preservation of life is something worth fighting for, in my opinion.


Even if we royally screw up this planet, it will still live on, in some form or another.

I definitely agree with the possibility of all three of yous people's responses. I won't stop saving star fish, or trying to lessen my impact on nature regardless of if I beleive in the end it doesn't matter in the big picture.

this exactly

Ahh, teleological angst. Could there be, a priori, a Ground of Being "telos" that grubby, grasping humanity carelessly subverts? Does our acquisition of knowledge/understanding of our "place" in the cosmic drama render us increasingly culpable for "befouling our/the Gaian nest"?

As with most heartfelt queries against the "Mysterium Tremendum", a hierarchization of perspectives is likely, pragmatic. Do "we" matter? At the, quantum-cosmic, ends of the scale>>How COULD we? From "our" middling perspective>>HELL yes!

Fascinating how our postmodern, transpersonal brethren(and sistren), capriciously dispense with a whiff of metaphysical/natural/biological, telos, while concurrently advocating hysterically, for a ruthlessly homogenizing socio-cultural TRAJECTORY.

Super thread, BTW.

Peace

Can you rephrase this with simple words please? It sounds smart but you already lost me at telos.

Dictionary?

As I understand it, s/he's essentially saying there is cognitive dissonance between the materialistic perspective of earth (i.e. we matter) and the cosmic perspective (i.e. we're meaningless). This is purely subjective. To the uber rational materialist, of course we matter. But to those who are viewing this reality through a cosmic lens, it becomes difficult to assess one's significance, especially given the scale of the universe.

I got a taste of the scale of the universe without the aid of psychedelics. I was lying down and looking at the sky in my backyard. I saw the sky, and questioned myself "Is that really the sky? What is a sky? Is it the blue thing above our heads?" Then it dawned on me. That blue thing is the universe. Plain and simple. Once I got that thought into my head, my mind almost broke from the sheer insignificance of us, as a species, as a planet, as a solar system. From thinking too hard, my mind became silent. It was then I began to astral travel. It's like when people drink themselves to sobriety. I thought myself into stillness. I lay down at noon. I "woke up" at 1800. Man, what a ride.

The whole concept of telos is ultimate purpose. Regardless of our impact on the universe, we still live on earth. That is what we should judge our purpose on. We don't think or reside in the quantum-cosmic realm. All we can do is ponder on the metaphysical. Ultimately (and to some, un/fortunately), we are very much physical. We are imperfect creatures living at the whim of earthly pleasures. We are irrational, illogical and emotional beings.

Oh now I get you. I have to say that your ideas are fresh, simple and unique.


Mu.

Now it's my turn to ask this:

Can you rephrase this with simple words please? It sounds smart but you already lost me at mu.

Hehe, I'll have a look in the dictionary.



In my own words: you can write books about these specific questions without saying anything. Are we important? Well, me: yes, I am. Others: not so much.

Ah, I see. I thought you meant the Greek mu. Well, this question is all subject to interpretation. Everyone will have different responses. Isn't metaphysical philosophy all about answering questions without saying anything?

In regards to self importance, I subscribe to the Rastafarian belief of I and I. We are all equal.

Yes it is. Therefore all words are useless. If you used a dictionary, you may sound smart and used a lot of energy but missed the point.

So is it bad to discuss metaphysics? If it's entirely useless, why use words at all? Why don't we just point and grunt?

What is the point? Of anything really, not only this thread?

This is great stuff. Thanks(sincerely) to all who choose to discourse!

Teleology references the study of: design, purpose, goal, directive principle. Of course it can be applied to multiple realms of inquiry, philosophic, physical, metaphysical, socio-cultural, biological....etc.

This being, at its core, a psychedelic forum, I tend to "soar angelic" in my dialogue. Forgive me.

Bodhi, indeed we DO reside and think in the, quantum-cosmic realm. There is no other. We are, quite literally, excrescences sweat from the quantum-cosmic matrix in which we are INTIMATELY embedded. Indubitably, the frailties of our corporeal nature you describe are real. We do however harbor an innate capacity to experience profoundly unitive(entheogenic?) mind states if only the appropriate catalysts are brought to bear.

Regarding operation of a cosmic telos, great motivator-attractor, who knows. Scientism(staunchly atheist/materialist/reductionist/emergent consciousness-ist), vehemently rejects it(a cosmic telos). The average, well informed intellect(most Nexians I'd presume), ponders the cosmic unfolding,(bang>space/time>physics>energy/matter>particles>atoms>chemistry>compounds>stars/planets>galaxies>biology>ecology>lifeforms>sentience>language/tools>cultures...), and is likely ok with the idea of, "directive principle/Ground of Being", at least in principle.

Very cool to recognize that "we" operate as perceptive organs for the "universe". It's akin to the "finger pointing at itself" or the "eyes looking at themselves". No mean trick, HOWEVER it's staged.

Peace

This thread may be of much interest to you: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=65029

While my views of capitalism have changed since I wrote my responses in that thread, I think it is still important to shift the focus toward improvement of our own lives that is also sustainable for future generations. Protecting the Earth is important, but so is living in the moment. How much will we sacrifice from our own lives for future generations? How much will they be expected to sacrifice for even later generations?

I think there is a funny equilibrium that exists between being just a little unsustainable to motivate people to look for totally sustainable solutions, rather than being lulled into a false sense of security with only short-term sustainable solutions. This is all with the assumption that by being unsustainable we are only hurting ourselves and our descendants.

However we must also question if there are other reasons to protect the Earth besides saving ourselves in the future. Do you think the Earth is some kind of independently existing entity that needs protection? Or is it just an outer-space vehicle for consciousness growth? Your answer to this influences exactly how sustainable we should try to be. Also, do we only need to be sustainable enough until we can colonize other planets or exist in artificial space environments? Again, your answer to this influences the exact level of sustainability for which we should thrive.

I like your proposal though. If we try to be good, rational, green-minded people, then maybe we can just start trusting ourselves a little more to take care of the planet. This will require analysis of our decisions and self-reflexivity, but once we get the motivation down, I don't think that will be too much of a problem.

Who's to say anything we think is real? We are merely perceptive organs, as you said. Our senses are our gateways to this realm. The Doors of Perception, if you will. Although I would consider myself "spiritual", I find it hard to believe we have some innate purpose. We don't have a purpose. What makes humans (or animals, even) particularly special is that we can give ourselves purpose. Otherwise, we're just moving, breathing masses of energy and matter. But something about the composition of this matter makes us us. That something is what makes us a moving, breathing, THINKING mass of energy and matter. This is something I think we will never understand. I have had a glimpse of the enigma known as life on a DMT trip. I witnessed the birth of terrestrial life. As a result of that DMT trip, I have completely forgotten my age. I don't see myself as a 20-something year old. I see myself as old as the universe. After all, energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another. So all the atoms that comprise us are as old as the universe. Once felt, it cannot be unfelt.

We, as psychonauts, have journeyed into the unknown many, MANY times. And yet we don't know what it actually is. I think the same way of our reality. What is it, and more importantly, why is it the way it is? Questions that I will never find the answer to, and I'm okay with that.

Bodhi, exactly, the "Mysterium Tremendum", you're all over it! It is this deep profundity from whence we spring(constantly) that is unlanguagable, but we try.

During ordinary SOC, we often barely "appreciate" our continuous "coming forth" out of, It. However when we tickle our processor(brain/mind + entheogens), this "creative matrix", that is sustaining our very essence, MOMENT TO MOMENT, seems laughably obvious.

For me, at least, they(entheogens) are sacred gifts!

Peace