I notice a lot of extraction teks or tea recipes call for filtering out (or decanting out) the sediment, because of ..nausea? or actual poison?

If it's just that the sediment/fiber of the seed causes more nausea, I would leave it in. Isn't the nausea part of the physical cleansing process it induces? If you filter out all of that stuff, or eliminate all nausea-causing agents from the Syrian Rue, aren't you depriving yourself of the full purgatory power of the plant?

Or are there actual toxins to be avoided in the material? If so, what are they, and why are they toxic?

Thanks,
RS

Hi there!

Afaik, no toxins within harmalas. The purgatory effects are certainly part and parcel of the entheogenic experience, or sometimes not. If harmalas were toxic to any degree, I would think necessary protocols would take place here on the Nexus. I know of no reports of utilizing harmalas to their full extent without actually harming the individual taking them.. many plants are toxic and will cause purging, while others have very high LD50's and also cause purging. So in way, it is the material being taken to which the indivivdual's sensitivity ascends..

Always great to start low and work way up. Dropping right into harmalas could cause negative effects.

I've heard rue seeds have vasicine & vasicinone which may be responsible for some of the harsher effects of rue compared to caapi.
This is not to say it's harmful in any way, just a bit more unplesant physically due to the prescense of other alkaloids than caapi.

Seems like those compounds are medicinal, though. Vasicine is a quinazoline, which "Medicinally it has been used in various areas especially as an anti-malarial agent and in cancer treatment. One example of a compound containing the quinazoline structure is doxazosin mesylate."
...according to wikipedia.

@ Thread ...... This is my opinion based on my research ...... DO NOT DO THESE THINGS . You can not be sure that you are safe untill some REAL scientific experements and studys are done ---- >

RhythmSpring ...... when you talk about purging are you saying you puke or that you have read / been told that people puke ?

P.Harmala has been used from moroco to the indian borders as a home medicine that is given to people with stomach upsets and other ailments for thousands of years acording to google and the books i have read . From the research i did the dose is about 6 gramms . That info came from google a few years ago . Since then google has gone so down hill with placed adverts that its hard to find any real information about P.Harmala use as a medicine .

The biggest amount that i found was that an iranian mother had given her opiate adict son 125 grams of it to help him with his withdrawls . He was delivered to hospital where doctors confirmed the dose . There was no mention of any ill effects or harm to him .

J.Ott did some experiments with it wich he wrote about in one of his books ....... i think in the 10 to 20 gramm range and said that it isnt hallucinogenic and didnt report any ill effects .

Based on that i tried amounts up to 20 gamms with no hallucinations and no ill effects other than a little aprehension .

The storys about MAOIs being dangerous needs clarifying . The original unformation came fom speculation . Speculation because there have never been any tests on the use / posible dangers of P.Harmala as far as i have read ? The unformation comes from tests done with pharmasutical MAOIs = The ones that are used to make pharmahuasca . ( Yes i understand that some people have now taken that word and seem to be trying to change the original definition ...... but ...... i stay with the original ) .


@ Purging on ayahuasca and co .

This is an urban legend . People look for information and read what others have said ....... based on things that they have been told and have read . Each one can add somethings and changes something untill storys of unavoidable purging go round the net ........ = people learn to and are trained to puke !!!!!

If there is a purging its not like real pukeing = like When one is drunk or seasick . The most that happens is that one gets wet burps and a little slime comes out . IF a person pukes food up he didnt take care of set and setting . Other people purge out of fear and because they are uptight .

I can believe that Syrian Rue is not dangerous, and that rumors of its danger came from studies on synthetic MAOIs.

But I don't buy that purging is an urban legend, or that it happens because everyone else is doing it, or that it's based in fear. I believe it is in essence a beautiful thing.

Also, to clarify, when I use the word "purgative," I mean that it purges the system through either end. It feels like Syrian rue dredges up stuff in the system. Whether it exits through the mouth or the anus is another story. Although a few Ayahuasca shamans I have spoken to agree that it is better to vomit than to resist vomiting. It's a matter of the toxic stuff/bile/dead parasites or whatever exiting rapidly, or very slowly over the course of a few days. I also have my own theory that when we vomit, the psychological content of what we are purging becomes fully available to us, and so we learn from the experience. When we resist and it goes out the other end, it is still excreted, but via subconscious (automatic, digestive) means, so we don't actually learn. We are cleansed, but the false belief systems that allowed the toxic material/parasites to take root in the first place remain, and one is therefore susceptible to toxic buildup in the future.

But, from my experience of purging, which is small but existent, it is not a fear response, it is like an internal message that says, "I am *so* better than this, I don't need to hold onto this crap any longer." It's more of a reflex borne of a dramatically increasing self-esteem.

PS- Those doses you mention are outrageous, but demonstrative of the safety of Syrian Rue. I can't see myself going anywhere above 6g, ever. 2.0g was a lot for me, and reminded me of Iboga.

I am not saying that its harmless i am saying that it needs scientificly testing .

The doses i talked about can be checked . IF anyone can show that they are wrong i will be very pleased to learn .

The doses that J.Ott took can be checked in his books .

I dont dispute that the highest dose that i found could be harmfull but ...... where is the evidence ? Or is it just widespread speculation ? So ....... on what is the rediculesness of those doses based on please ?


Question ........ how can anyone puke that hasnt eaten for at least 4 hours before takeing the dose ?

It's not widespread speculation--I've experienced it and witnessed it firsthand: people vomiting on Ayahuasca after more than 4 hours of fasting.

I also vomited on Iboga after at least 24 hours of fasting.

Don't forget, it's not just food that's in our system. It's CRAP (using the term loosely). We have a lot of stuff going on in there that we're unaware of...

Bile, too. Mucus. Living things.

OK ....... I dont dispute your experience ........ but it is subjective .

@ The pukeing bit . Yes . First comes food . Then slime . Then green bile and then turds . I have never seen or heard of anyone ever pukeing . The most was a mouthfull of slime and that was me on my first ceremony ....... i was aprehensive . The only other person that i saw do that was another guy at his fist ceremony and he was VERY fightened .

Another thing that we as a group need to do is to try to pin down placebo and sugestion . About how much it can and does influence us ....... because that effect can be big .

Here is an example ---- >

I was told that extacy produced one peak after another each of different hights . Then when X came back onto the streets in the early 80s i took the normal dose for that time and had exactly the experience that i had been told i would have . Now when i speak to experts about that they laugh because extacy doesnt do that .

Well, in any argument about the existence of something, the argument that says, "It does exist because I experienced it" trumps the argument that says, "It does not exist because I have not experienced it." You see?

But I would like to steer the conversation back to the original question: Which was about the effects/status of toxicity of sediment/fiber of the Syrian rue seed.

Which reminds me... in those outrageous doses you mentioned, was the whole seed ingested? Or just a tea? That is important in this discussion.

" in those outrageous doses you mentioned, was the whole seed ingested? Or just a tea? That is important in this discussion. "

Can we please get away from the word rediculous or explain why it may be rediculous ? I dont think that J.Ott could be called or acused of being rediculous .

I cant remember what he took . I took the whole seeds .

At ceremonys that i have been to people mostly have three doses a night wich is " normal " = each person consumes about 9 gramms of unfiltered P.Harmala = 3 X 3 Gramms in a night .

An indirect indication ---- >

IF P.Harmala was consideed dangerous would it be sold in grocery shops for 10 $ a kilo even to kids with no warning ?

OR

IF its seriously dangerous where are the casualtys in the part of the world that uses it ?

After thousands of years and thousands of people useing it people would have noticed if it was dangerously dangerous ?

Gracie and zarkow said that the bottom dose of P.Hamala was 5 G . The dose they used was 7 G and their highest dose was 10 G per dose of DMT .

Thats on page 66 of " Ayahuasca analogs " By J. Ott .

On page 70 he talks about his experiments with P.Harmala and says the first try was with 15 G . He did several expeiments with it that he describes there on the following pages .

He said that the effects were psychoactive / sedative . Psychoactive just means that he felt effects it doesnt mean hallucinogenic .

Now, now, now...those are some very absolute claims and assumptions to be made about other people and their experiences from your computer.

I've read of people purging great amounts after having done serious fasting.

I've heard of people purging things that do not resemble any food whatsoever - and afterward feeling vastly better than before.

Wet burps and a little slime lol what a statement! As if you know that this is the norm for all people using these things, and if anything beyond that happens then something is out of line.



You know what you've seen and experienced. Sharing your thoughts, assumptions and speculations regarding those experiences is one thing. Making absolute statements about other people and their experiences is another.

RhythmSpring I'm no expert but from what I've read in the past, my understanding is that the seeds themselves result in additional digestive complications (beyond what may be normal for some people) just because they are difficult to digest.

There are many threads and pages on the net about this very topic - the possibility of Syrian Rue being toxic. Have you googled extensively? Not saying you'll reach an absolute conclusion on the matter, but it helped me gain a better view of the subject in the past.

Consuming whole seeds is not a good method to determine toxicity. Whole seeds do not break down entirely in the gut. Most will pass right through to the toilet. The best thing to do is either grind the seeds into a fine powder or, even better, extract the alkaloids. There are teks for this in the wiki.

From personal experience consuming ground up seeds is not ideal -- esp in high quantities. They will cause stomach problems and/or nausea. Some of my worst trips have been with crushed seeds because the experiences accompanied extreme nausea. This problem goes away when the alkaloids are extracted and encapsulated.

Some people seem to be in a pissing match over large doses. This is unnecessary with MAOIs. All you are trying to do is inhibit the breakdown of DMT in the gut and a moderate dose is fine to accomplish this. For me this is around 100mg of pure alkaloids.

" Wet burps and a little slime lol what a statement! As if you know that this is the norm for all people using these things, and if anything beyond that happens then something is out of line."

I didnt say that its the norm for most people . I gave my subjective expeience and talked about what i have heard from other experienced users . I am sixty and have friends from about 18 to over 70 that use ayahuasca mixtures regularly for years . They never talked about sickness .


" Making absolute statements about other people and their experiences is another. "

Where did i do that ?

My opinion from another direction ---- >

1 - Is the general public imune to emetics ? = NO .

IF P.Harmala , B.Caapi , Harmala alkaloids and / or Ayahuasca are emetics why doesnt everyone or at least the vast majority of users purge and / or soil themselves ?


2 - Think about the expressions " To shit out " and " To shit ones pants " .

The first means death . That when people die many shit themselves . They are frightened and they loose the control of their muscles and it happens .

The second is pure fear . When a person is very fightened it can and does often happen .

People tend to think that the little man in the boat that is rideing on our subconscious that we call consciousness is the boss . Not true . Hes a passenger . The subconscious is ( generaly ) the boss . The subconscious can detect signals like fear and the muscle contractions and blood vessle contractions that it can cause and that can lead to a panic spiral and then an overload ........ like learys ego death bad trip thing ........ and the body takes over and starts an emergency program = SURVIVAL mode . Then it ejects possible dangers through both ends to try to deal with and get rid of a possible poisoning / threat to the organism .

It doesnt matter if the man in the boat knows that or not . His body acts without asking him .

That fear doesnt have to be conscious fear . It doesnt mean anything negative that i had to spit that mouthfull up and out . It was because i was afraid . Fear is a part of my survival system ... it is my friend not my enemy . I did feel good afterwards .


Does that make sense ?

Let's keep the thread on topic, please. Feel free to start a new one to discuss the purge.

Thank you.