Hello Folks,

I've been noticing the increased heat that m. hostilis has been getting. I am considering moving on to an annually renewable source: grasses!

Of course, I always stayed away from them because of the toxicity of gramine. However I am currently taking a toxicology course and was introduced to the term NOAEL - No Observable Adverse Effect Level.

While it hasnt been tested on humans, the NOEL appears to be quite high for Rats and Chickens.

Response of animals to dietary gramine.
The effects of feeding varied levels of low- and high-gramine yellow lupin seeds (LG and HG, respectively), and of synthetic gramine added to the diets in amounts ranging from 0.15 to 1.2 g per kg were investigated in one experiment on growing chicken and in two experiments on growing rats. The comparison of LG and HG lupin and the effect of 0.5 g gramine per kg of LG diet were determined in a growth-balance experiment with pigs. Organ weights and histology, blood parameters and activity of liver enzymes were determined. The response to HG lupin and gramine concentration varied among the species, the rats being more affected than chicken; no adverse effects of HG lupin or gramine were found in growing pigs. The common reaction of rats and chicken to the high levels of gramine (native or synthetic) was the decrease of feed intake and body gain. The increase of the relative weight of liver or kidney, changes in hematological parameters and liver enzymes were found only in rats. The estimated NOAEL (no-observed-adverse-effect level) of gramine was about 0.3 g/kg diet for rats, 0.65 g for chicken and at least 0.5 g for growing pigs.

I'm not sure whether they're saying that the NOEL's correspond to the synthetic gramine or the lupin seeds?

I would personally avoid gramine at the moment. There is speculation that it is not toxic but who knows..there is something in arundinacea that leaves a long lasting stimulant effect after the tryptamines wear off and then leaves me feeling burnt out with a headache. It does not feel healthy to me and while some people dont think it is toxic I dont think most of them have actaully bioassayed plant extracts containing gramine. This is just my feeling after bioassaying grass extracts. It might not be gramine but I am not willing to be a test subject over and over again until I know more or can isolate the other tryptamines and test them alone to compare. Be careful.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=41419

There is more about it in that thread. I suspect it is either the gramine or 6meo2meTHBC or related beta carbolines that cause this. Gramine is not thought to be soluble in room temperature naptha btw..

Well I would definitely value your firsthand experience with it over tests on rats, Jamie. Thanks for the input.

I assume this is via inhalation?

yes inhalation.

It is only my assumption that these effects may be from gramine..I cant be sure..could be the beta carbolines and gramine might just do nothing at all. I just am not willing to bet on it over and over.

Please forgive me for this tangent which I feel is relative to the topic.
Hordenine is known from P arundinacea, and from various mesembs too. The off feeling stimulant property of arundiancea is also present in my experience with extracts of Delosperma species, which are far less active in terms of tryptamine like activity.

Perhaps gramine is not the issue here?
Perhaps it is hordenine?
http://pubs.aic.ca/doi/pdf/10.4141/cjps77-112

"deja vu all over again"

I thought it was hordenine for a long time until I had one of my extracts analyzed by endless and no hordenine was present..which surprised me. Gramine was present though.

Was this feeling also present with digitaria? Do we know if digitaria contains hordenine?

I did not experience anything similar with digitaria, but only experimented with modest doses and never took a large one.

wasn't gramine already shown to be almost insoluble in some solvents, and only partially soluble in others?

or am i mistaken?

Thanks for the info guys. I was unaware of the hordenine issue.

Any links Parshvik?

..i'm not convinced by all this worry about Gramine..

see https://www.dmt-nexus.me...m=290385&#post290385

I would be willing to bet the main problematic alakloid with wild arundinacea(for me anyway) is hordenine. I am not concerned with hordenine toxicity..it is a stimulant though and its reported effects are in line with the effects that hit after the tryptamines for me. I dont think hordenine is toxic, but it is unpleasant for me..and I dislike stimulants anyway as they make me feel anxious and strung out.

I have a feeling cold np solvent pulls, maybe with a few recrystalizations even will leave behind most of the hordenine. I never tested anything but full spectrum extracts so far with the grass so..

Gramine should be left behind also so no worries. Im doing a fumarate tek on wild grass right now. Should be interesting.