After watching the fantasic "The revelation of the pyramids", it has become easy to understand that man today is certainly lacking in the skills that certain ancient civilizations once had. It was interesting to note that towards the end of the programme that they have even concluded that this must have perhaps been the action of an advanced race. What could possibly be the reason as to why they were then advanced, compared to today??

--Surely years of "thinking" must make us more intelligent than them??...umm, i dunno!!

-:idea: -I've come to a personal conclusion that as humans we have a brain that has a purpose to recieve information and store it, and a body to manifest that information into reality. I also believe most of our knowledge comes from our connection with the universal consciousness, and that psychoactive plants have a role to play in our ability to recieve this HIGHER knowledge.

--In these ancient civilizations i am certain that psychoactive plants would have been consumed . Especially by people in power. Perhaps by everyone. And that these people would have recieved visions and vivid dreamstates, which would inspire them to physically recreate them. I believe that they simply followed these hyperspace realms and recreated them on earth. And because they could "see them", they could also believe in them. They didn't "think" about them, they just did them. They didn't have to doubt the universal conscoiusness because they didn't have a catholic priest breathing down their neck saying that it was wrong. In these times the people operated on information direct from THE SOURCE of knowledge.

--These days we don't consume psychoactive plants, and like to "think for ourselves instead", as if we don't need them!...Could this explain why we can't do what they did. Why do we have to "think" about what we do..( are we worried about what the priest would say?)..Is this us, making prisoners of our own minds???-should we have faith in connecting with the universal consciousness and surrender to it's message, or trust the limited knowledge from religion and school which limits our imagination and keeps us small. And why on earth do we limit ourself, when the world is limitless???

--Should we shun modern day man's so called superior vitamins in a bottle and just eat plants again, and should we eat some of those "funny ones too" . Or should we just say NO, eat your burgers, and watch reality tv---After all, we know what's good for us, right??...Isn't it time that we realised that we don't have enough mind skills to do it all alone, and that perhaps we can become the greatest civilization ever, if we resume consuming psychoactive plants, and act on those visions, without judgement-like we used to, untill religions put a stop to it????



---Why is CHINA trying to hide their pyramids from us..What do they know ????

--What are your thoughts....??


----BUMP!!

IMO most people are modern day fools...

I gotta agree, Tele.

- I believe that psychoactive plants not only inspire the right kind of vision and action for the current time and place, but also that "seeing is believing" meant that no one feels forced into doing something that they don't believe in. I also believe that psychoactive plants allow for creative inspired solutions to problems that one may encounter along the way, that mans regular thinking could never achieve.

-I believe that these people consumed psychoactive plants, and operated directly from THE SOURCE of knowledge, or the universal consciousness, and not through the system of "thinking".

-So by eliminating entheogens from his diet, modernday man chose "thinking", rather than "knowing" and has not only become less intelligent, but has also "lost his way" ?.

I agree, I have just started watching these videos called Magical Egypt. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/magical-egypt/
and in episode 3 i believe it mentions something along the lines of your post.

Many enthobotanist have proposed that very statement before. On top of barely using them many people don't know how to use them right and they all to often end up being taken at parties and shows (which is okay, but many only know how to use them this way) which aren't good environments for deep searching.
Also, our diets could be having a LARGE influence on our evolution as proposed by Tony Wright.

Thanks Bill, i'm loving it, keep it coming.. .....BUMP!!

when we consider psychoactive plants and ancient culture and the concept of enlightenment... perhaps we should note that none of these cultures endured, conquered war and violence, eliminated STDs etc
mankind is at best foolish, perhaps
we want to find a way to avoid this, drugs, religion etc, but really we had best accept it and work with it
we are never going to become something else, something other than a mammal
insights do not equate with right mind, right action etc
we want a final cause, a purpose, a justification, to redeem ourselves individually and collectively
is that anything other than our vanity?

the fool on the hill...
that is me and you

Great points mentioned, Albert.

-But i really do think that almost all of todays problems like wars, violence, std's , etc..are simply because we at some point, for whatever reason-event, stopped using psychoactive plants to connect us with "the universal consciousness", and instead used our own "thinking" to do what we thought was right, unaided.

-Today i had an insight. That in a pure sense we would recieve information from "the universal consciousness", and that consuming psychoactive plants would enable the most stubborn and "malprogrammed" of minds to be able to do so. I also thought that it was simply our duty to ACT on that wisdom. When we stopped consuming such plants we tore away from their help, and thought we could do it better "in our own heads", by simply obsessing/"thinking" on the same information in trying to see if it would trip/develop, rather than keep flowing with the movement of the non stop ever changing wisdom of "the universal consciousness", which Knows what is right for us at the right times.

-We stopped knowing and acting, and started "thinking" instead. We tried to be our own gods. We basically ditched our best friend, and made a friendship with the enemy instead!

No christian, this is wrong! Cultures that frequently ingest psychoactive plants wage wars, they use violence, they have irrational beliefs, dogmatic beliefs, dangerous beliefs, human and animal sacrifice among many other things that are not good in any way. I am really provoked and horrified by your consistent and very limited perspective that psychedelics is the end all answer to all of our problems.

Thanks for you viewpoint, Citta.

-But i think that maybe those cultures were perhaps working through their "ego" verses their "true connection", and would have found sense to stop such acts sooner or later. Spanish conquistadors or not, etc. I have fundamental beliefs that all humans want what they think is best, and don't do things simply for fun. There always is a purpose/reason behind mans actions. And when he learns that they don't work, he tries something different, ad-infinitam.

--Let us not forget that although the Spanish stopped these acts, that they also killed the majority of indigenous people also. So they were even worse..

Pretty loose speculation there, and not much of an argument. There is plenty of examples that we have grown without psychedelics too. The development of human rights, democracy, secularization among many other things. No psychedelics were needed for this.

Yes, when we learn that things don't work we often try something different. This is very true, but it does not require us to trip balls. Often it is actually best not to just trip balls!

UMMM.. But i think that in the past mankind used psychadelics in rituals and usually took low doses to provide just enough insight, rather than full on "trippin balls", as you say. Even if they were "trippin balls", they were trying to communicate with their gods rather than simply be off their faces, because natural psychadelics have an unmistakeable "teacher and knowledge" aspect, unlike some artificial drugs that "modernday man" consumes??--so i don't think they would have gottn away lightly from "trippin balls"..

--Just my 1 pence!

it would please me very much if psychedelics offered insights that allowed humans to eradicate those activities we perceive as detrimental to ourselves and our environment

but are we anything more than ants in how we act?
in how we compete and utilize resources?

I have seen so many people use DMT, psychedelic cactus, etc, and not one of them is without the monster than resides inside all of us, not one of them is enlightened and those that thought they were often were the biggest monsters of all, because they thought that they were past having to control the monster inside them

back when LSD was new people said the same things, that it was going to allow evolution and bring us to a new age, most of those people who said that are dead now, they tended to be self absorbed egotistical hedonists as well, by choice though...

it is dangerous thinking to believe that anything can change humanity in a collective way
or to think that individuals will ever be incapable of being tempted to harm others out of self interest

our nature is that of any mammal, be cautious of those who appeal to our vanity by saying that we can transform into something that isn't capable of greed and anger. in the right context every aspect of being that we view as negative is actually positive

those who were likely enlightened stressed the need to be vigilant and act in the right, to prevent temptation and to know that suffering is inevitable, they never taught that they or others could transform into beings incapable of suffering, they only taught to limit action so as to prevent unnecessary suffering

so, where are the enlightened ones who have been transformed by DMT or mescaline or anything?
I would gladly accept them as a teacher, bring them before me and i will bow to them.

I think many people have been enlightened of themselves and the universe thanks to psychadelic use. And naturally because they have learnt a personal truth, they don't tend to go bragging about it, because enlightened people don't tend to feel the need/desire to do so.

--The fact is that Psychoactive plants have been used for millenia for mostly positive purposes. And it it is well understood that psychadelics have the potential to change the human race on all levels if they all participate. Mostly positive i may add. Certainly it would seem strange for a psychoactive imbibing society to kill just for fun, i would imagine...?

And yet, there were the Nahua...

People are capable of primitive complexity and complex primitiveness. Life sure is strange stuff.

i'd like to point out that the US government itself gave LSD to counter culture revolutionaries through the CIA, because it was shown in numerous studies to undermine the ability for political action, people high on it are less likely to change the world or even be effective in any way, this is why it was looked at for use in war, because a population high on psychedelics is largely incapable of effective organization and resistance.

The high dose trials of DMT by Rick Strassman resulted in no enlightenment, just terror. He ended the trials out of compassion because he did not like traumatizing people.

Many psychedelic using cultures performed human sacrifice and engaged in recreational torture and murder. i am a huge fan of Andean cultures for example, they used many psychedelics but never arrived at a state without violence or even state sanctioned killing

remember that in shamanic use ayahuasca was employed in attacking people with sorcery techniques, it was not just for healing but was deliberately used to help harm others, shamans were people you could hire to harm others using sorcery

I don't see psychedelics as good or bad, to me they are like an axe, a tool that is used in many ways, for war and for peace, to harm and to help. I fail to see how anyone could be enlightened from their use, i would love to meet someone who has enlightened themselves through the use of psychedelics, but all of the people i know who use them, and i know a lot, are still typical human beings.

It should be noted that with ayahuasca and peyote it has been shown that their users in a ritualized religious context report being happier and healthier, but then they use christian ethics and values in these religious uses, so it is not surprising. you will find that satanic cults like the psychedelics too, but they aren't nice people like some NAC and UDV people.

i think there is an unrealistic and dangerous emphasis in the psychedelic community that focuses upon psychedelics being positive, but it is not historically accurate to say that psychedelic use has been predominantly positive or negative in any culture

a lot of people want to justify their own use by thinking that it benefits them and is incapable of harming them, while there is something to be said about positive thinking being positive, it is dangerous to ignore that people are people and that does not change when they are high on psychedelics.

I have taken so many psychedelics over the years... but honestly it has not made me a better person, or a worse person. it has made me paranoid and delusional at times though, has it benefited me? i fail to see how. Have i had any profound insights from their use? not whatsoever. I can say i understand myself more, but that includes in terms of knowing just how dangerous an animal i am, i see myself more clearly and in doing so know that i am an angel and a devil at the same time, clearly knowing my limits and faults cannot equate to my overcoming them, and i am the most unenlightened fool you will ever read

That was a good post, AltberKLoyd.

Christian, I hope you can try to take in some of the argumentation you meet here, and start widening your perspective a little bit past the "psychedelics will save us!" mentality. It's gullible.

Hummmm....I dunno!

-Of course Psychadelics can be misused. Trouble is the reason why some people aren't enlightened from them is for various reasons. It could be their intentions, or they took too high a dose and had a negative experience, or didn't allow enough integration time before the next blast off. Could be because they opted for the quick dmt trip rather than the more teaching long and tough Ayahuasca, Mescaline, etc trips. Hey it could even be because they simply didn't KNOW how to use these tools for such purposes.

--Enlightenment isn't about being a all smiling person who wears orange robes either. It's about having seen your essence, the connection you have with the universal consciousness, and your place in the world. Psilocybin is currently being tested and ill people found that it gave them a profound religious experience, and put a smile on their face, and allowed them to think in a more positive, fearfree, and loving way. It's funny how these people never mentioned how a religion did this for them.

--I believe that we have choices to make in life, because in the end it's our life, and we need to flower and realise our true potential. I really do think that a flowing life where man stops overthinking and starts having faith, without the crutches of religion and overanalysis is the way to go. This i believe is why Psychoactive plants can from time to time help reset us on the right path. I don't agree that religion can do so, because man learns best from direct felt experience rather than questionable religious dogma,etc.

--Albert and Citta, you may not see things like i do. But i think it's a well known fact that Psychadelics if used appropiately can allow people some deep insights, and these insights can teach them things that if they would pay attention to, may learn a thing or two. Perhaps something more directly and personally useful than any religion or best friend could ever say. Because people and religion are not perfect and prone to jealousy, guilt, and other negative emotions. The psychadelic experience is pure because it's only agenda is you vs the great "out there". So there's no confusing blarb thrown in the mix.

Enlightenment isn't about being a all smiling person who wears orange robes either. It's about having seen your essence, the connection you have with the universal consciousness, and your place in the world. Psilocybin is currently being tested and ill people found that it gave them a profound religious experience, and put a smile on their face, and allowed them to think in a more positive, fearfree, and loving way. It's funny how these people never mentioned how a religion did this for them.


I've always wanted someone to define this term enlightenment, I see a lot of people who claim this but seem anything but, are you enlightened Christian? Not saying you seem anything but, I dont know just I really like what Enoon said, someone has it as their sig something like people who claim it are not even close, or along those lines. I've been taking psychedelics regularly for 15 years they haven't made me enlightened, but then I don't even know what that means, is it attainable? I think different people have different ideas as to what it is, I still don't know what it's supposed to be? Living like a monk? Not getting angry or irritable? I eat the right food which I put down to psychedelic use and am really healthy compared to what I used to be but I still get angry can be selfish at times, though on the whole I'm generally a great guy maybe psychedelics helped with this greatness but then Ive always used them, sure pride doesn't equate to enlightenment lol

I agree psychedelics are great tools that can be used for good but also think albertkloyd summed it up with his great posts, I just can't see how you can give someone a load of mushrooms and Dmt and say here go get yourself some enlightenment, if that was the case most here would be, but then you rarely get people claiming such things here but elswhere a lot of egotistical people on crazy diets that say meditation is the path claim enlightenment, but as I said they seem anything but!

Hi Infinate 1, thanks for your points.

-I also agree that you can't giver somebody a bunch of shrooms and make them enlightened. Of course not. People that want to feel or become enlightened must realise that it is not necessarily an easy path to take, or one to quickly realise. I would like to think that i have had some enlightened thoughts in my life, but because i'm currently not living my dream i wouldn't say i'm truly enlightened. This can be said for most of us perhaps. But i'm not complaining, or even trying to say i'm enlightened, nor do i care about such "status".

-Like i said, i think Psychadelics have thir mind unlocking uses, but unless we make lifestyle changes in accordance , then it's not living right, but simply "tripping". Sure they are not the whole picture, nothing is. We have to act on those special insights or they are wasted,etc. No more stating the obvious from me.