So I've been using Q21Q21's vinegar & lime tek for a while now, and been experiencing fairly high yields, but I was reading through The DMT Handbook by Viracocha, where the author states,

"Many acids will work, however it is strongly recommended that Phosphoric, Hydrochloric, or
Sulphuric acid be used. Previously, Vinegar (Acetic acid) was used, but the yields were sub-
standard compared to those achieved with Phosphoric acid. This may be due to the Acetic
acid forming a weak bond with the DMT which may easily be broken down during some steps
of this process." (P.5)

Anyone have any verification that vinegar does or does not affect the yields? If so, where the hell can I find phosphoric, sulphuric, or hudrochloric acid?!?

sounds reasonable -some ppl have got freebase by heating acetates - so perhaps in heated solutions of acetates some of the spice is freebased and released because of the heat.
just a shot in the dark - no proof of anything.

Do a side-by-side test with two extractions, vinegar on one side, and another acid on another, maintain all the rest exactly the same, see the final yield and come back to tell us. The community would be very thankful

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me this would only apply to traditional AB teks in which the bark has been removed prior to addition of the NPS.
Other teks utilizing vinegar for a pre-basification step (eg mentioned Q21Q21, BLAB) would experience no adverse effects even if the acetic bond was broken.

The purpose of the acid soak in these teks is simply a breakdown of source material.
The basifying step should destroy all bonds to form freebase which is then soluble in the NPS.
A strong bond is not necessarily desired...a strong bond would preserve the acetate which is insoluble in NPS.

Simply a discussion of the exact utilization of vinegar...more precise than stating vinegar in general will decrease yield.

Ahh thank you for clearing this up! I add the NPS straight into the bark mixture after basification, so I think I'm fine. Just to make sure though, the lime is strong enough to destroy the bonds correct?

Vinegar is great and never given SWIM a problem. He would much rather use that than sulfuric acid based on the fact it's food grade and has relatively no danger as compared to sulfuric acid.

Also, lime is definitely strong enough to break the bond. That's about the best food grade (if using food grade lime) base you can get. Sodium carbonate and bicarbonate don't have the same power.

Food grade phosphoric acid is also available.

There’s citric acid as another option to use too, very easy to find as well.

That being said I have yet to find any adverse difference in yield with vinegar (I use something fairly similar to Marsofold for A/B though). In fact I have found much better yields with vinegar, but this may have something to do with the fact that my first couple of A/B extractions (performed with citric) were at a time when I was inexperienced with A/B and hadn’t got my technique down.

Citric acid is definitely dependable and I believe is in even more pure form than vinegar is.




Where might one find food grade phosphoric acid? Has SWIY used it before, and to what effects?

morebeer.com is a good source of phosphoric acid, but it can also be found at lots of other homebrewing/winemaking supply shops.

It's been used for some time over at the Ayahuasca forums with cold water extractions and seems to do a great job, based on reports found there. I have not heard of any friends who have used it in an A/B, but I don't see why it wouldn't work just as well as HCl or sulfuric as long as you achieve the proper pH.

-JM

Great, thanks Jmaxton!

Phosphoric will perform AT LEAST as well as vinegar while also not stinking up the place or boiling out of solution.

I was worried about the vinegar smell when I first did A/B so initially I was working with citric acid, however (at least using 1tbsp 5% vinegar/1L water to make it about pH 3 or 4) I have found no difference in stinkiness. I came to the conclusion the bark actually has a far stronger smell and I couldn't smell the vinegar very much at all.

I thought that the volatility of acetic acid might actually be beneficial as there would be a fairly stable pH, rather than it going down as the solution is reduced.

A 10 volume reduction (for instance from 10000 to 1000 or 2000 to 200,...) of a phosporic-acidified solution should change a yield by 0.5 pH so I wouldn't worry about that. Same goes fo' acetic.