So when the seeds finally pop... does that mean the harmaline is gone?

That does actually appear to be the case, more or less. I'm fairly convinced that only a limited proportion of the seeds actually pops but the resultant brew has a cool blue glow without a trace of green nonetheless. Also, it's hard to know how much to heat the seeds so that they almost, but not quite, pop - so it could be the case that the harmaline dissipates at some point shortly beforehand. The degree of nerdiness required to test this hypothesis is (thankfully) outweighed by my laziness. I can think of a good few experiments though.

So. My tests with roasted rue seeds.

Yesterday I continued with the third tryout. My first one was with 4g of roasted seeds boiled and strained. The second 4g + 20mg extracted non roasted seeds sublingual. Those report are in this thread somewhere.

And this third one I wanted to see how the effects of the harmine dominant roasted rue brew could be changed to the more familiar harmine/harmaline mix that I'm used to.
So this time I brewed only 2g of the roasted seeds in 250ml water for 25 min, strained it and drunk it together with a shot of 100mg extracted harmine/harmaline mix (HCL). I thought that this would take me to a more familiar mind-space that the super sober/clear harmine that I've had so far with the roasted seeds. I normally take ~200mg orally of this extracted mix but didn't want to overdo it together with the seed tea.

After 2h I started feeling some of the 'body buzz' that I recognize from harmalas. I had fixed the space, dark, warm, music to travel with and sat down to meditate before the DMT. I had prepared 3 * 20 mg liquid pads for the glass vapor genie and soon took the first one in one inhale.

Well. It was still very much a harmine trip. Really clear headed but super trippy at the same time. I'll try to describe my experience and compare it to a extracted harmine/harmaline trip.

With a high harmine content my mind keeps it's normal self. I don't get 'out of my mind' even if the surroundings are completely changed. I respond and reason in a kind of normal way, my emotions are not very changed or effected. yes that it perhaps the most obvious difference. I don't become so immersed on many levels in the experience. But still I mean. I spent some time having a conversation with my lamp (a golden globe) and it's background (the room) flipped between channels/spaces. And for around 15-25 minutes (?) the air had this floating glass membranes all around. So pretty effected. But still clear. Strange indeed.

The second 20mg DMT (after about 45 min from the first) took me too feel some kind of birth and to experience this as 'someone else' (a close friend was giving birth one on this days).

The third (also around 45 min after the second) mostly made my body vibrate, charged with an amazing energy. Almost to much.

There was not so much of an afterglow, and I miss that. Usually this it when I feel that my mind is glowing and I' able to step out of my normal self and tracks of thoughts. Better connects with emotions and relations. I now think that this harmine heavy trips might be good for someone that are afraid to be lost in a the psychedelic space and wants to still have a clear head. .. but then again, DMT + harmalas might not be the easiest way to this anyhow.

After this time I feel refreshed and clear minded. Calm emotionally. Less effected that with harmine/harmaline mixed experiences.

Now I want to do the extraction of the roasted seeds. Thought about doing a crude extraction with boiling the whole seeds in acid and then NaOH + washing with water. No manske.

I also want to add something more about my harmine dominant DMT experiences.

Normally with harmine/harmaline mix and vaped DMT I get into something like a dream world. Visions, patterns, images in the minds eye. I can rarely have my eyes open. Or I just don't want to.

With more harmine I keep my eyes open and I don't get this dream feeling. I also get no images when I close my eyes. I somehow feel like this is more like a DMT only trip, but extended and slowed by the MAOI effects of harmine.

I have minimal experience with roasted rue, and the experiences I had felt like a diminished rue (similar to murklan's experience). I also share this quest to refine rue and I agree that too much harmaline is undesirable and higher thh is desirable. This year I experimented with very early season harvested rue (august) because harmaline is said to be very little to non existent at this time. Again, it felt like a feeble, diminished rue. I am starting to believe that harmaline is a crucial component of rue and is good and necessary in the right amount. There have to be other ways to refine or enhance, and my guess is that the equation does not consist of the alkaloids (beta carboline or quinazoline) and there are other components that might need clearing up in a certain way.

Thank you for sharing your investigations. I can't help but laugh when I read this description. I wonder what an average person would think about this kind of experience 😄 And still it sounds very plausible.

I too get the impression that Harmaline content is an important part of what Rue does, however i also feel like the dark roast, while much cleaner in effect, is no doubt good stuff too. The Harmaline does seem to have some medicinal properties that i don't get without it, but i just like that we can degrade Harmaline content, and have only Harmine in the dark roast, while using raw seed or lightly roasted seed for Harmaline content.

I don't feel like removing the Harmaline diminishes the Rue, it does seem to make it less potent though, obviously, since Harmaline is a very strong compound and Harmine is cleaner, gentler and less potent. I feel like you can better tell/notice the Harmine content with Harmaline gone, so normally 3 to 4 grams of Rue is used, because Harmaline is pretty strong and potent in the seed, but without the Harmaline, the dosage can go up to 5 to 7 to 10 grams or even more, depending on how much Harmine content you want. Idk if it's because Harmine is generally weaker in effect/potency than Harmaline, or if it's because there isn't as much Harmine as Harmaline, but i can definitely tell the dosage of dark roast is good at 5 to 7.5 to 10 grams.

With all that said, i do like the dark roast for what it is, i do like Harmine for what it is, but at the same time, i do miss some of the actions of Harmaline, but none the less it's a good thing imo to be able to have different kinds of Rue depending on what you're going for, or can even mix the raw and dark roast to one's liking. Dark roast Rue is definitely different than raw Rue, but i think it's good for what it is.

I've been working on getting to know rue in every way possible. I've tried the seeds in different seasons. I've tried the root. I've tried different preparation methods... I've tried different strains. After 12 years and thousands of rue + admixture experiences (and the discovery process is not finished yet), it seems to me that rue can be harsh, rue can be weak, rue can be just right depending on the strain, the season of harvest, and the preparation method. The 'just right' rue is not like caapi and trying to make it similar to caapi seems like a futile effort. The harmaline power and visionariness is central to rue (it's not called harmal-ine for nothing). If your focus is not the rue spirit and you approach it as a tool, then tweaking with it as in destroying the harmaline content can prove fruitful, no doubt. Too much harmaline is not nice for sure, and as a solution to that, I harvest in a specific seasonal period. All that said, I have not explored roasting extensively and I am curious Shamenstamen, are you able to get a similar visionariness and talking spirit with 7-10g roasted rue to one gets with raw rue?

Yeah for me, so far, the Rue spirit seems to still be there without the Harmaline. The dark roast still feels natural, i think the only real difference between raw and dark roast is that the Harmaline content is gone in the dark roast, the Harmine and background compounds still seem to be there. But at this point i'm still unsure if extensive roasting affects potency (Harmaline-aside) or not, like idk if extensive roasting will also break down Harmine or the background compounds, but when done right, you definitely notice the Harmine and background compounds and it still feels like Rue, just minus the Harmaline.

Rue's never really been visual for me aside from tracers, i may get closed eyed mental imagery rarely, but i've always felt like with Rue, there's a certain dosage that for me is visual, but if i go beyond that dosage, which i usually do, then things become a lot more physical than visual. Whereas with dark roast, i still don't get much in the way of visuals, but based upon prior experimentation with pure Harmine, with Caapi, and this dark roast, i feel like Harmine is more visual for me, than Harmaline, while Harmaline is more physical.

I will say though, like you, i think Harmaline is rather central to the Rue experience, however, one main thing i've learned from Rue is that it's really variable and can be flavored in a variety of ways, whether by roasting or by the addition of admixture plants or supplements. So while Harmaline does seem to be a big part of Rue's overall effects, i don't particularly think it's necessary, it's just different without the Harmaline. I feel like a little bit of Harmaline is good, but i so far definitely seem to prefer more of a Harmine-dominant Rue, but do like a little bit of Harmaline in the mix. I've mainly worked with Rue in raw, full spectrum form, so this dark roast thing, or roasting in general, is pretty new to me, as is a Harmine-dominant Rue.

So overall, i guess it just depends on what you're going for. Dark roast Rue is definitely not the same thing as even lightly roasted Rue, you can certainly tell the difference between Harmine and Harmaline, there's still no doubt similarities though, i mean it's still Rue none the less, just absent Harmaline, so you definitely still get familiar Rue territory, it just feels much cleaner and gentler than raw Rue.

The last few days i've been consuming another batch of tea (made from 25 grams of dark roast Rue, which each dose being 5 grams), and overall it's been pretty nice.

There's not really much of a bodyload at all, although some of that may be because i've been consuming it regularly/daily, as i often do with Rue/Harmalas, but also definitely because Harmine is cleaner feeling and more clearheaded than Harmaline.

It's also pretty relaxing, especially with CB1 agonists involved lol.

Also there's been no nausea or vomiting at all since i've started with the dark roast, even taking a 10 gram dose there's been no nausea or vomiting, try that with 10 grams of raw and you'll be regretting that decision, ime lol.

And i can tell Harmine is definitely active because of it's CYP1A2 inhibition which potentiates my sleep medicine (Tizanidine) which pure Harmine and Rue usually do. I also consumed a bit of champagne (for the first time, might i add, lol, good stuff) while on a dose of the dark roast (and some HexaHydroCannabinol - HHC), and the combination was actually pretty good.

Also definitely notice a different timeframe of Harmala effects, with raw Rue/Harmaline i feel like it's fully kicked in by 2 full hours, whereas with Harmine minus the Harmaline, i feel like around hour 3 or 4 is when i feel like the Harmine is fully kicked in, same thing happens when i take pure Harmine as well.

I'm really pleased with how you've run this this one - and I just thought it was an innocent observation! Let that be a reminder in general to both follow our inquisitiveness and to report even seemingly trivial observations.

It seems that the subjective experiences are confirming the resolution of the rue alkaloids downn to harmine only through the dark roasting process. And thanks for that CYP1A2 tidbit, ShamensStamen - that one had escaped me. By "champagne", I presume you mean the fizzy wine rather than the form of MDMA which carries that nickname.

Tangential thought from that - would MDMA be "safer" combined with harmine than with harmaline as the CYP2D6 inhibition with the latter presents some danger?


[Speaking of combinations, how might harmine affect the mescaline experience?]

Can I just confirm whaether the weight of rue that you've used for your brew is measured before or after roasting? I've always found it convenient to measure the weight before roasting (actually I use a 5 mL scoop which contains exactly 3.5 g of seeds).

I am going to roast some rue, then base and manske the harmine, for pharma and psilohuasca. Thanks for this. I've had little success with separating harmine from rue brew with the standard sodium bicarbonate method.

Indeed, when i first read about the roasting method and started doing that, i was doing the light roasts in the oven, i could tell that it seemed cleaner feeling than the raw seed, and i had my suspicions that at least some of it had to do with reduction of Harmaline content, but i never thought to check the fluorescence nor did i try dark roasting them because i was afraid i'd burn the seeds or something. Once you mentioned the fluorescence difference and how it seemed that Harmaline had degraded, i gave the roasting process another try and indeed, it does seem to work pretty well.

I will say though, i think it's worth experimenting to see what differences may occur when roasting, and how different temps and timeframes may change the chemical composition. Harmaline seems to be the least stable during roasting, while Harmine and background compounds remain, however i have noticed some slight variance from batch to batch depending on temp and how long i roast them, but overall it seems be fairly consistent, ime.

And yes, i meant champagne as in the fizzy wine, first time i ever had champagne, it was actually pretty good lol. I still would avoid MDMA with Harmalas though since it's primarily the MAO-A inhibition that's a concern with the reuptake and release of monoamines from MDMA. Also iirc Harmine also has 2D6 inhibition as well as metabolization, so i'm thinking it's the Harmine that's the CYP inhibitor, although Harmaline could do the same thing, idk. I've never worked with pure Harmaline so i'm not sure of it's potential for CYP inhibition, but for the time being i'll just assume they're both capable of it.

As for weighing, i weighed the Rue before and after dark roasting the first few handful of times, and each time the roasting process caused it to lose about 1 to 1.3? grams or so, at least a grams worth of weight reduction.

As for the Mescaline, i'm not sure, i haven't yet tried Mescaline, will one day hopefully though. But i'd definitely try combining Harmalas with Mescaline to see how that goes, i love my Harmalas lol.

Yeah this is one of the main thoughts i've had, because i too in the past have done the Manske extraction on raw Rue to get the Harmine/Harmaline HCL extract, and tried separating the Harmine from the Harmaline using baking soda because i wasn't successful. From my understanding, ammonia is what we need to separate Harmine from Harmaline, and a pH meter would be helpful. However, with this dark roasting method, i think it would work just fine to break down Harmaline content and then we can preform the extractions and end up with pure Harmine, i see no reason as to why that wouldn't work. Although, depending on roasting efficiency, it's possible one may end up with some slight traces of Harmaline possibly, however if the roasting is done properly, there shouldn't be any noticeable Harmaline content, at least from what i can feel with the dark roast Rue. So this should definitely work, and i'm excited to hear your results, i'll get around to making my own extract in a few weeks, just been a bit busy lately.

You guys think I could roast a half pound of seeds in the oven on a cookie sheet? Think this would be appropriate for getting it dark enough, or do I need to do smaller amounts on the stove top?

Well when i first started out roasting the seeds, i started out in the oven, on a cookie sheet lined with aluminium foil, i think at 350 to 375 degrees f for about i think 20 minutes iirc, however while it worked, i think the seeds were more of a light roast, still reduced Harmaline content but i think there was still some in there, and when i checked the fluorescence of the brewed up lightly roasted in the oven Rue seed powder it still had a pretty green glow, although you could tell it had a little blue in there, so it wasn't as green as the raw seed brew would be. So i imagine you probably might be able to, but would probably need to let em' roast a little longer than i did so that they're more of a dark roast than a light roast.

The only concern i'd have with roasting them in the oven is that you'd wanna make sure they're all spread out and not stacked up on each other so they all get roasted equally, also if the seeds end up popping they may pop out of the pan, so something with raised edges may be useful. Still probably might wanna stir them around while roasting so that helps with equal heat distribution.

Personally, even though it's a bit more of a hassle, i'd probably recommend just doing them on the stove, so far i've roasted up to 40 grams of Rue seed at a time, although i'd probably recommend 25 grams at a time, but no more than 50 grams at a time, just in case. Roasting them on the stove doesn't really take long at all though, so to go through a few batches isn't too much of a hassle, but roasting a half pound of seed at a time even in the oven may not roast as well as doing smaller batches.

Wow wow wow!! I just finished decanting a medium roast Rue brew this morning and had a taste - the taste is SO MUCH BETTER it's ridiculous. Almost no bitterness. Super smooth. I was honestly skeptical that roasting would make such a difference.

When I roasted my seeds, I preheated the pan at 5 on my stove. Was worried this might be too hot, wasn't sure. I added 50g of seeds and they poppped instantly. I stirred them while they popped, and after a few minutes, some of the seeds started to turn a dark brown color, popping all the while. Once about half of them had turned a dark color, I put the seeds into a pan for a water boil.

I did 3x 30 minute boils with acidified water (which also normally adds a nasty taste), finished reducing this morning, and just had a cup.

I'll update tonight and see how it feels. I have been using 1g doses of unroasted Rue to both abort headaches and prevent them, it has essentially been my rescue med. I have to take something before working an 8 hour shift, and I have a long day today, so we'll see if this gets me through.

I did feel a shift in headspace, but without the fuzzy/dreamy/sleepy bodyload.

There are a lot of diferent shades of blue...

Is the blue color you see after dark roasting similar to a ...pale blue...or a trequois or a greenish blue?

is the color you see after roasting similar to the colors below??/


I heated mine a different way and got this color after mixing a little alcohol in it...


the blue glow in glass is from the black light...the alcohol apears pale blue or a blue green/?

Yeah i've noticed that the roasted seed brews can fluoresce blue or turquoise, the lighter the roast, the more of a greenish glow it'll have, the darker the roast the more of a blue glow it'll have. I have noticed that if they're roasted too much the blue glow will be dimmer, whether that indicates reduced potency or not idk, but so far i have had some batches that have roasted too hot or too long and they did seem weaker, i think, but if you roast em' just right the potency is retained (Harmaline aside) and it has a pretty bright blue glow.


Here's a few pics from the first dark roast i did

Front view of dark roast

Front view comparison of dark roast (on the left) and light roast (on the right)

Top view comparison of dark roast (on the left) and light roast (on the right)

I do think the roasting process is pretty easy, but it can take a little experimentation to get things down right. Overall the dark roast is very promising so far and it works like a charm, you can definitely notice the difference due to the lack of Harmaline.