The caapi extract is much more docile, benign than rue extract.
While caapi paces down events, make a clear framework etc, the rue extract gives an own whirl into the event. This makes caapi more safe for experimenting with dosages, more forgiving, can't actually go wrong. With rue there are limits to respect, one has to find ones own with it.

I must say the bodily come-down & afterglow that rue gives is unmatched and on caapi I sometimes miss that "volume". What a 2 wonderful guides with an own take-on. I must start combining them. Some say that is not a good idea, some say it's really wonderful. Must find out myself I guess.

In my defense, I still have a decent amount of changa and at least 100mg harmalas left. I really just meant not enough for my girlfriend and I to go pharma style. I wouldn't be silly and run myself completely out, now would I...?

And hey, I'm in no hurry! I've got 800g of Rue sitting around being a "pillow" and a whole lifetime to extract it!

Where is that "knee-slapping" smiley?

So I left my 70 sweet spot for a 90, and it was just splendid.
I think to have no sweet spot at all actually, loving it all from 25 to ?

A bit off topic, but...

Congratulations on your 1000th post-- it seems moving to 90mg was indeed significant.

A millennium party is called for

Well still no hyperspace immersion on 90 but footnotes, yes.
I've never searched for hyperspace on pharma as there was other work available.

Reviewing this:

The word "somewhere" is very open to interpretation and could mean many different things as there are different goals possible. I can see for reaching one particular goal the 150 - 200 is indeed required. But not everyone has that certain goal, or is perhaps not ready to work it up.

Well,

My first (100g) caapi extraction produced 780mg of fluffy nearly-white powder. Was hoping for a little more, but I'll let the vine have a hand in choosing my dosage-- I'll split it with my friend for this journey, adding 50mg of spice each.

Lovely day for it here. I will post results and link to a full report.

Stellar! Sending positive vibes your way, Nitegazer!

Hope it goes well!

It went very well, thank you.

That was a much stronger experience than I expected. I was able to have a near threshold experience and it was powerfully visual. Lovely to experience it in the outdoors in the fading light of the afternoon.

The one somewhat unpleasant surprise is that I had intermittent nausea and a strong purge. Not a bad thing, but on balance I'd prefer not to have that dimension to the trip.

I was also amazed at how stimulating and social the harmine was. I had expected to be very introspective and internal but the connections I formed with my company were one of the more powerful aspects of the experience. I definitely want to work with rue extracts to compare.

A thank you to Jees who encouraged me to go a bit higher in dosage than I otherwise would have. I think I had a great first experience with 370mg caapi extract and 55mg freebase dmt.

Here's the full trip report:
First Pharma - Caapi/DMT

And an excerpt from 'peak':
T=0:40 to T=1:40 Strong OEV, starting with incomprehensible written characters moving across the wood of the bench I found myself lying on. to an intricate fractilian quilt of grass and stems creating a sacred space before a wave of vines emerging from the edge of the forest. Able to walk for short periods but then needing to sit or lie down. First strong nausea, leading to a bit of dry heaving but no purge. CEV building to a near threshold experience. The forms very bright and vivid, but more rounded (organic?) and less angular than vaped experiences. I felt the presence of 'the goddess' (I think of her as Nut) explaining that before (when vaping) I was a guest, but now, in her domain, I was hers. Strong body high, bordering on orgasmic ripples through body. Voices of the other guests muffled, as if under water and difficult to make out.

Thanks everyone for your guidance and support! Thank you to the Nexus site for propagating the knowledge!

oh, Interesting to see this poll again as I forgot it existed.

Another thing I'll add, to my mind people in the west are taking pissweak DMT dosages in their ayahuasca brews. A LOT of people come to me and tell me they are getting not so much from their ayahuasca brews and needing 3-4 cups for anything to happen.

I guess that is because people are wanting to maintain the egoic state of consciousness.

For most people the real magic is not going to start until around 100mg or so, and this poll attests to that.

The ayahuasca veteran would probably say one need only a pinch dmtee if the vine was really powerful. That is something this thread/poll doesn't cover as here it only refers to dmt content. This poll can as well indicate how much or less people emphasize on the vine or rue, unless it is an unspoken rule that only the minimum was used for maoi.

Please note that this poll is about pharmahuasca specifically.

If the cases reported to you are really about plain plant brews (as your wording seems to suggest) then the possibility should be considered that said brews were not prepared very efficiently. Pharmahuasca does not imply this uncertainty about dosage that plant brews do, especially if those ayahuascas were brewed by people without extensive experience doing so.

Even with pharmahuasca there is still a lot of room for pilot error. Ingesting too little harmala or waiting excessively long between harmala and dmt ingestion causes unnecessary breakdown of the dmt by digestive organs.

I noticed that the amount of freebase dmt that is advised for smoking has gone down over the years as smoking techniques improved. Nowadays, employing apparatuses such as the GVG, breakthroughs are reported on doses that were thought to be insufficient in the past.

What if I am used to smoking dmt in joints and I start suggesting that other people use piss weak hits because they put less than 100 mg in their GVG?


That is a rather big assumption to make.

Having read some posts on this forum I could guess that some people underdose on harmalas because they fear the gastrointestinal side effects of the harmalas. This may well be a major reason for some people to try pharmahuasca instead of a plant brew.

When the harmala dosing strategy is effective, oral dmt can be very efficient. I have had an intense experience on only 50 mg of Acacia confusa extract. While I did not make a formal analysis, I assume that a sizeable amount of that 50 mg amount was nmt, which is less active than dmt. The friend who joined me in that session and took the exact same amount was equally surprised as I was.


It might as well attest that many people use too little harmalas or use them ineffectively.

It should also be considered that some people do need to employ larger doses than others for reasons of personal biochemistry.

I agree with Jees that the aspect of harmala effectiveness needs more attention. Taking 75 mg dmt together with 100, 200 or 300 mg harmalas makes a big difference. This poll does not account for such factors.

Beautiful experience report there Nitegazer, enjoyed reading, sounds like one of the classic type reports you might read in "Antipodes of the Mind" by Benny Shanon or something like that, you have a great way with words, excellent report.

The strong female presence you describe, vines growing, designs & character writing on the wood in the beginning, bliss you mentioned, very interesting report.

More on this female presence in Caapi:

http://www.ayahuasca.com...are-ayahuasca-analogues/


As far as the nausea, it's possible the higher level of admixture at 55mg was a bit
much, as most of the entries for admixture amounts from this Study by Callaway below
(see chart on page 2) range in the average of 25 to 40mg, with 30mg being typical.

As far as the caapi side of things, on page 2, the average brew amount was 100ml in the study, so just multiply the 1.83 and 1.72 harmaloid alkaloid levels in column 1 by 100 to get 183mg + 9mg + 172mg = 364mg for example.

http://www.vetmed.helsin.../Callaway-decoctions.pdf

That study by Callaway should win a Nobel peace prize or something, very remarkable study with over 28 seperate entries with full analysis. Dr. Callaway & Dennis Mckenna should be commended for their groundbreaking studies over the decades & the interview of Dennis Mckenna at the Nexian magazine was very good as well.

Again, great writing, found the open eye & closed eye & emotional report fascinating.

Once I had 100mg when I took some ayahuasca vine root bark. The vine was so heavy, I couldn't even lift my hand. It was the strongest MAO I've ever experienced, but the experience was still 100mg DMT strong.

But yes, different people's mileage do vary of course.

So the amount of DMT that the UDV and Santo Daime and these other churches AND traditional ayahuasca brews are not particulary visionary drinks. Which is fine, if you don't want to have visions, or just be slightly altered by an amazonian herbal tea.

What I'm talking about, is actually going into some deeply transformative spaces, that TAKE YOU, you can't even move, let alone sing and dance like you are in church!

These doses, 30-60mg should only be considered at the lower end of the spectrum. I'm honestly surprised people are getting something from 50mg at all. The only people I know who that would do anything to are little asian chicks.

I know people who take 250mg and do not blink an eye lid, whereas these days I find 150mg to be quite strong.

Even when people take strong harmalas, most will still need strong DMT doses to get visionary effects. Also, you don't need strong harmalas, especially with those from Syrian Rue, as nausea just becomes an issue and the heaviness you get! There is no reason to go with strong harmalas.

http://www.lavondyss.com.../guide/water-spirit.html

"Before ingesting the DMT I take four grams of Syrian Rue and wait until MAO inhibition is in effect. I've had good results using about 160 to 200 mg. of DMT. This is far more than is required for smoking, but it produces a three to four hour experience. I've found it best to consume the DMT over half an hour to allow for a more gradual inebriation. With smoked DMT the " flash" is part of its legendary effects. But a more gradual ascent allows the experience to unfold in a more natural manner, as occurs with LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, or the Ayahuasca beverage."

4 gram of syrian rue is about as much harmalas as anyone would want to take! That's about 200mg of harmine. (depending on the strength of the rue seeds)

5 grams for most people is just too much.

For me, true pharma is taking pharmaceutical MAO inhibitors, say 300mg of Moclobemide! I've done that dozens of times, and yeah, 100-200mg is the sweet spot, like I keep saying, for most people, not just myself.

Well the poll speaks for itself. Most people who voted need 100mg or less. Maybe it's accurate, maybe it's not, but like I said I think it's not very useful unless we're giving harmala dosages as well. It's a bit odd to chalk that up to people here just wanting to maintain "egoic states" because it doesn't align with your opinions on the dosages you think people should be taking.

We'll have to agree to disagree that the harmala dosage doesn't really matter much, and that "there is no reason to go strong with harmalas"...That notion is ridiculous. You seem to be just projecting your opinion too far. People have different preferences.

I think the point is that for many people (perhaps not most, perhaps not everyone, whatever) dosages less than 100mg with sufficient amounts of harmalas can still be a very strong dose and people should carefully learn what amounts they need since there is such variation

Apart from the amounts of dmt and harmalas, there is a third relevant factor. Ingesting the two components separately, especially with a long delay can also negatively affect intensity of the experience for some people. The method of dosing is a more complex type of variable and unlike dmt and harmala amounts not linear, but it can definitely alter results.

And a fourth: same person, same dose, different occasions, can lead to extreme different experiences.
And a fifth, .... sixth...

In the latest experience there was this non-typical event of a very shortly breaking through on "only" 75 mg light. It was not expect to happen at all, it was a surprise. Had not eaten for a long time and was tired and bio rhythm was seriously skewed at that time, those factors must have led to a very sensible special situation. This very non standard condition proved some point concerning "how much is needed".

The poll became imho a bit like the question:"How do you displace yourself?"
- crawling
- by feet
- by bicycle
- car
- train
- plane
- rocket

IMO it's a statistical curiosity only, a very "nice to have".
But the possible conclusion "This is how much the average nexian takes on pharma." looses all sense very quickly once seen the many variables and most important: the noses are not in the same direction concerning WHY the pharma was visited, this really nukes the poll's practical avail. The demeanor's value becomes compromised.

People doing cars start to ask what's the use of going by feet, and people on bicycles look eyebrowed to people that need a rocket to feel happy. That's my problem with this poll, I cant choose

I like so much the nature of debate here

I'm not saying anyone should be doing any sort of dosing.

I've just noticed a global trend in people wanting to keep their ego, and have fear about going into a framework of dosage in which their ego is no longer in control.

Some people here report "museum" pharma doses, when they are walking around. And that is fine, I'm not saying that people should not start small.

I have noticed, also, that in taking for me what are somewhat lighter doses, say 60-80mg it CAN become quite visionary for a time (normally only 20-30 minutes), depending on what I am needing at that point. But MOST will need 100mg for the experience to really TAKE, when you are in a trance state and flying with it.

I'm saying, there is an upper limit here, when I was in the amazon some years ago, I figured the doses they are giving the tourists is around 150mg of DMT. Some of the ayhuasca I had there barely had any vine in them at all, just giving the MAO effect. Other ayahuasca I drank there was very heavy and left you all wobbly and barely able to walk it was so vine heavy.

It would be an interesting venture to test these different cups, that are given to people in this day and age. As I believe this data of ayahuasca tested from the churches and indigeous people is only relevent as these are not visionary doses, but lighter experiences.

It is also quite common for people given ayahuasca by indigenous people to not experience much, many people I know who have drunk in the amazon complain of never really getting visions. (and in the west) I call it the epidemic of piss weak ayahusca. I think a lot of it is that people don't understand that many people (not all) need much higher doses.

My basic point, the standard truly VISIONARY dose is around 150-200mg. And some people prefer 250-300mg.

In terms of pharma, its usefulness for me was learning about exactly what DMT doses people respond to.

Like I keep saying, you cannot expect to take 50mg as a first timer and expect to feel that much, no matter how high your harmala dose is.

The only time I can see the benefit of taking high harmalas is when they come from ayahausca vine, as harmalas from rue can cause too much discomfort when you take too high a dose of them, whereas, the vine harmalas will tend to be more beneficial when the dose is increased. Even then, there is a point I think when too much, is too much and there are unpleasant side effects which come to the fore.

As I understand it, indigenous people consider adding a lot of dmt something only for beginners, like trainer wheels on a kid's bike. For them, the visions come from the vine. What you call "piss weak ayahuasca" is to them a brew for seasoned medicine men.

By that I don't want to say that you are a beginner, but that you probably have an entirely different aim and expectation than the amazon people. You are not interested in "traditional ayahuasca" but in "oral dmt".


IMHO this is highly irresponsible advice to give to newcomers. Even if this is perhaps not your intent, inexperienced people may take your words as a guideline. Ayahuasca attracts people who have no previous experience with psychedelic substances. To many of them it has an aura of "medicine" around it rather than "drugs". They have no experience with or knowledge of safety in set and setting. Will you take care of all the traumatized people? Will you take responsibility for the media feeding frenzy and the harsh legal backlash?

Earlier in this thread (post 21 through 32) my girlfriend and I embarked on our first pharma style journey with only 40mg of DMT and 200mg harmalas. While the trip was definitely light, it was a good place to start, for us anyway.

I've/we've smoked DMT many times and know how insane those journeys can be. If you have never tried pharma before, IMHO, right around 50mg would be a great place to start.

On a different day, I tried Jees' pre-dosing method and ended up taking 325mg harmalas total with 85mg DMT and had a wonderful trip.

I think it is more about laying the groundwork first. No need to jump off a cliff and be stuck inside something more than you bargained for, for several hours. I'd rather jump off smaller cliffs until I get the hang of it, and then I'll climb Everest and jump, so to speak...

But as we all know, everyone is different. I think next time, I/we will go with anywhere form 85-100mg of DMT and see how high that cliff is...

My point is beginners often need a strong DMT brew! Pretty simple point.

To me, the visions can come from the vine or the admixture plants. It really just depends.

I know a woman who only needs a sip to have a very strong experience. Myself, I need less and less. But beginners often need a lot to crack through their shell.



Maybe that statement would have been relevant to me 14 years ago, but not now. I am now not interested in oral DMT or "traditional ayahuasca". I am interested in DMT containing plants and Ayahuasca!




14 years ago I told a guy that dosing at 300mg was the way to go.
Him and 15 of his friends went out in nature and all did that dose orally and had an awesome time.

No, it is not irresponsible. That is the visionary dose. It is simple as that. I am no more or less irresponsible than DM Turner.

For that dose, you should have a sitter, you should lie down, and stay lied down.