Anything less than a ++++ (shulgin scale) would be unacceptable.

I agree with your analogies to a point...I also think that arrogant egos may need to be destroyed so that they can transform into a conscious and spiritually aware being, this may be traumatic, it may be unpleasant, but it also may be necessary.

My community is called "the church of Entheogenic gnosis", the basis if our spirituality is experiance, we experiance the non-physical first hand, we experiance the after-death first hand, we experiance the Divine first hand...all spirituality and religion is the exegesis of this experiance, so we removed the exegesis and all the nonsense that comes with it.

There is no "one proper way" to use DMT, I guess your intentions and goals determine a good deal.

If you want to be the most efficient you can vape 30mgs doses, efficiently using all your DMT, but this can be difficult for neophytes and non-enthusiasts, and the potential for a "failed brakethrough" is significant.

My methods "waste" DMT, but will consistently produce a peak experiance for ANY person who participates, I've never seen my method fail...Though I'm also very very very selective about who I initiate, I may just be picking people who are mentally susceptible to the peak DMT flash...

-eg

PLUS FOUR, (++++) A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a "peak experience," a "religious experience," "divine transformation," a "state of Samadhi" and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.

WOW what a substance this is. Its unbeleivable to me that this stuff even exists.

Ha, I never even considered this. It's a ceremonial pipe, so the blade is dull.

Plus a sober helper usually takes the pipe from the individual who smoked before they exhale.



-eg

It’s true that a high dose will eliminate the possibility of a failed breakthrough, but it will at the same time create the possibility of a horrific and psychologically damaging experience. (For example, this seems to happen regularly with users of Salvia.)

My most profound mystical experiences were not my highest doses. As dose size increases beyond a certain point, dose does not correlate well with the depth of the experience.

Also, it’s very unlikely that you and you fellow travellers are achieving ++++ experiences on the Shulgin Scale. By definition, a ++++ is rare and not necessarily repeatable:



I’m not trying to give you a hard time here – I just want to encourage safe and responsible use.

the first time I smoked DMT I consumed 200mgs, light-yellow translucent Dimethyltryptamine crystals on top of high-grade marijuana, I cleared the DMT as well as the marijuana in a single breath, and before I could exhale (or even count to 5) I was in an overwhelming state of intense psychedelia. Visually the world was not recognizable, time ceased to exist, I remember going into a panic, thinking "get this shit out of me!" And exhaling as rapidly as possible...but it was too late. I remember looking around, I was at the bottom of a foggy mountain with dirt roads, I was overcome with an intense feeling of panic and deja-vu, I felt like a lost child, everything I knew about who I was or my life or earth seemed like a distant dream, like I dissolved out of existence, I interpreted this as dying, I knew that I was dead, and I was emotionally overwhelmed while confronting the event of my death...at first you want to reach out for help, you think "call the fire department, or I need to call my family", but you quickly realize it's just you and death and you have to come to terms with it alone. I could not tell if I was breathing or not, I would take air in, but couldn't feel it, I then noticed a pain in my chest, a giant mantis like being had its claws in my chest, it proceeded to tear open my chest and stomach removing all my organs and insides, I was about to go into shock when I saw a bright green light flash over my shoulder, it nearly hit me, it then became a beautiful geometric object,a glowing stone or jewel, morphing and color changing. The mantis then put this object in my torn up corpse. The mantis then began to make billions of these objects, each one unique and radiating beautiful colored light, and my hollowed out corpse was filled with them, replacing all the organs that had been removed. Then I was sealed up in a burning flash of red light, and my newly rebuilt body was propelled into an orange light where I was resurrected...then I felt as if I was being pushed through a membrane, I was being born....then back to reality....those who were there said in reality I curled up into a ball and began to cry for 15 minutes, I was wondering why my face was wet, because it felt like I had actually just went through being born...any way the immense deep spiritual and psychological implications of this experience left me for ever transformed, reborn as a new person entirely, it was the single most meaningful thing that has ever happened to me.-EG

(with 15 mg, smoked) "At about 60 seconds after I smoked this free base, I beheld every thought that was going on everywhere in the universe and all possible realities while I was wracked out with this horrible ruthless love. It scared the hell out of me. When I could see again (15 minutes later) it was almost as if there was an echo of a thought in my head saying that I was given an extremely rare look at the true consciousness of it all. I've never been hit this hard since then. A definite ++++." -shulgin/TIHKAL

I dont understand why some people have to give EG a hard time...

I've heard all the criticisms regarding this technique and have taken them into account, and I'm NOT saying "the higher the dose the better", I'm saying at 150-200mgs dose I've been able to successfully and consistantly induce transformative experiance in several close friends and family members. I'm an organic chemist, and we have medical doctors and nurses in our community we are also working with a south American shaman, so I feel as far as being educated, informed, and prepared, we are on track. Our shaman says in his community there were similar initiation practices, only using Virola theiodora snuff (epena) at high dose.

I'm an advocate for safety, responsibility, and respect for these compounds, more so than most as I generally do not approve of recreational use, I see these compounds as sacred tools, not toys, and I do all that I can to these things are used safely and with responsibility and respect .

I can understand your criticisms, but can not argue with results, I've also said in previous posts in this thread, "we do not recommend that others attempt these techniques" I'm nit advocating for use in this manner, simply describing how my community has been using this tool.

-eg

I dont understand why some people have to give EG a hard time, he has a way of smoking and it works for him and gives him lifechanging experiences with DMT. It doesnt matter if some gets wasted, I am sure he is doing self extractions its probably not a huge deal for him as much as it is for getting him where he is looking to go, which are the bardo dimensions. I respect what he is doing fully.

...If someone loaded up a GVG with 200mg of DMT and by dumb luck managed to efficiently vaporize and inhale it all, they’d be in for quite a surprise...

Of course some of us are able to achieve transformative experiences as described on as little as 25mg. Maybe it’s a function of differing neurochemistry?

I use a couple of analogies to express my views regarding dose size:

1. A low dose of DMT is like being brought to a door but no further – you know something lies beyond, but you’re not permitted entry. A higher dose is like being brought to a door with a window in it – you can see what’s on the other side, but you cannot participate. A sufficient dose of DMT is like opening a door, entering, and fully participating in the eternal mystery.

If the door is opened sufficiently to allow passage and full participation, is there anything gained by opening it wider?

2. A dose of DMT is like listening to music: At a very low dose, one has to strain to hear the music. Much of what is present in the music is too quiet to sense. At a sufficient dose, the music is loud and clear – every note and every nuance can be heard and appreciated. Turn the music up to 140 dB and the beauty and nuance are lost. What was beautiful is now painful and extremely unpleasant. Beyond a certain point, what is the point?

[offtopic]

entheogenic-gnosis wrote:

I also think that arrogant egos may need to be destroyed so that they can transform into a conscious and spiritually aware being, this may be traumatic, it may be unpleasant, but it also may be necessary.

entheogenic-gnosis wrote:

...all spirituality and religion is the exegesis of this experiance, so we removed the exegesis and all the nonsense that comes with it.

This sounds all too paradox to me.

Btw, in my opinion, one who experienced ego-death can realize, that there is no ego at all, nor has ever been. It is a concept, an idea, a believe of what, who and how one is. A almost static, self knitted paradigm. And one oberves, that almost everyone is playing the game of identification, so one starts behaving like being emotionally attached to ones own creation (the play) and moreover starts taking it f***** seriously.
Funnily, egos also desire egolessness. In my experience, one simply can not "destroy" an idea. Have you ever tried? I tried it many many many many times and my "ego" is always coming "back", and will, as long as I remain in this life. Thus, instead of focusing ones attention on the process of fighting and destroying ("I have to destroy", one can focus on the process of creation ("I can create" by taking responsibility for oneself.

What remains is freedom, which originates from unconditional love. Nothing has to be done at all.

To me, the extend of uncondional love is just unimaginable, without any fuss or quibble. Can you feel me? NOW, and till the end of (my) time, WE are (I) connected in every moment, regardless...

If one is eager to achieve or bring spiritual enlightment, the battle is already lost and more confusion is brought up.

Thus, when the peak experience is already a (the) state of being, life becomes a big recreational process. A pure pleasure and amusement of life itself.

In my opinion, no dose is high enough, if one insists in living ONLY a seperated-self paradigm of life.
[/offtopic]

ontopic:


Holy moly, I am feeling you!

tseuq

I'm having trouble understanding what you were trying to say.

Removal of textu-eg

Nevermind, it does not contribute relevant information on the topic of the thread.

Save and happy travels, namaste, tseuq

I've never liked the idea of psychedelic "gate keepers". Sort of along the lines of the grateful dead LSD family. It is up to the individual to decide if they are ready for DMT. Absolutely no one else. Sorry this just grinds my gears. Elitism, especially in the psychedelic community, seems directly adverse to the lessons that they teach

shamanic abilities are generally brought on by a personal crisis, such as illness or sudden shock. where this is not naturally forthcoming, initiation designed to produce the effects of such a state are used to bring about rebirth as a shaman -J. Mathews ; the shamanism bible