We make things up to fill in the gaps we don't understand. It's why "god" is/was used to explain the creation of the universe. Now, as science evolves through time we are coming closer and closer to understanding how the universe was created and works. Just because it's made up, that doesn't prove it's false. It just means we have another gap that needs explaining.

I guess this topics heading is a bit questionable. There is something called "respect to the plant" and another thing which is "repect to the spirit of the plant" which one is Cheeto talking about i am wondering??
is the plant going to give you a good or bad trip? or the spirit of the plant gonna give you a good or bad trip? I mean its also a little bit about your understanding. Are you sure these someones said they respect the spirit of the plant ? or you exaggerated that SPIRIT part a little?

Do you believe you have a soul?(I do)
Do you believe all living things have a soul?(I do)

Are molecules alive? (I believe they are, they aren't flat and 2-d like chemistry diagrams they are of the same dimensions we are and are CONSTANTLY in motion.)

When you ingest a living thing, what do you think happens to the soul or essence of it? I believe it is channeled through you. You channel the "soul" of the life-source. In my opinion, if you do not respect that which you channel you give it free-range to treat you however it wants to.

Plant spirits can be kind and understanding. I find they let a few people get off fairly easy their first few times with or without respect. Though some people have train-wrecks 'randomly' and generally it comes from disrespect of a substance.

The reason why I believe it is because I have learned it the hard-way.

This is pretty much what I was coming here to post.

The only thing that remotely points to any sort of spirit of a plant effecting you is simply explained by you believing or hearing of the theorized spirit before consuming a strong hallucinogen, why take such a leap on such an expected outcome that would be so easily explained?

I could understand if this spirit could gave you some kind of confirmanation, some way to point out its existence in reality. I wish people would think about things a little more, i believe its this exact type of things which makes many paranormal things believable to many people even when they have been pretty much proved false. Its really sad, sure i'm not saying theres not truth to any of it(Ghosts are still interesting to me), but it makes it harder to go on someones word when there are so many examples of how very illogical people can think. I believe some even have the balls to make up what they believe based off of nothing but possibilities of an uneducated mind. I don't have the best education myself, i imagine worse than anyone on this site, but my interest in these things fueled me to learn more about physics to see if they could be real, the more i learn the more it seems most people who say they know its real are just full of shit and explaining what they think, but say it as if they know it. I'm starting to see why paranormal isn't stuidied much, its because of the so many bullshit claims people seem to just make up in there heads, or overlook certain factors.

I'm pretty much narrowed down to ghosts, they seem to be the only thing thats not basesd souly off of word of mouth, they atleast get evidence and data.




O yea.... Of course i know to respect it as a drug, as in no abuse as well as respecting ones self, others and the world around me, even space if i ever make it that far, i was speaking directly to the way people speak as the plant is connected to a spirit/god that grants them good trips, or harms you if you extract its chemicals rather than eating a pile of nasty shit, or drinking nasty tea.

Because it doesn't actually explain it. For example, I have been a hardline skeptic my entire life, and yet in my first and most significant trip I was absolutely sure that I was engaged in a conversation or exchange or communication with something that was in my mind but wasn't me. Now I have heard of "plant spirits" and "entities" before this, but my attitude to all this was that it was a bunch of superstitious crap. So I certainly did not believe in any plant spirits, did not expect any to show up, and sure as hell didn't want them to. But they did.

Now does that mean that there are actually some kind of immaterial plant souls that are channeled through tryptamine molecules? No. But the experience of communicating with an Other during a psychedelic trip is not a matter of suggestion but a matter of primary experience. If you do a lot of shrooms, you will discover that the "source" of the shroom trip has a certain quite distinct personality that gives a special flavor to the shroom trip. If you do salvia, or aya, or smoke DMT, you will find that each of these things is colored in a certain unique way. And the Other, or Others who are encountered on these substances are not the same, but somehow different.

Anyway, I do not think that the idea of "plant spirits" is offered up as some kind of pseudo-scientific theory that is meant to explain this experience. I think it is only meant to describe it, or to label it. But the idea that the "plant spirits" were suggested to you does not explain anything, either. I think any reasonable explanation would have to come from psychology and cognitive science.

Well you must not believe in God/Tao.

I do. Everything has a purpose. Especially entheogenic plants!

Because you are hallucinating its pretty explainable.

You related to this information while hallucinating, weather you originally believed it or not, thats the source. If you had never heard any of it, you could still see other beings, because you are hallucinating.

I was only reffering to people viewing as an actual spirit, not the flavor of the trip, I have seen people talking in that sense. I know different combos of chemicals causes different effects, as well as different chemicals alone. I can't bring any to mind, mostly people reffering to salvia, but i've read others saying the same for cacti as well, and how the spirit wouldn't like you and give you a bad trip because you chose to extract the mescaline rather than eat the cactus. I don't anyone here to debate that issue, so i guess maybe it was another site i read this kind of stuff on??

actually "just hallucinating" really doesnt say much...noone has shown either way that these "hallucinations" origionate from within the mind or are origionating from sensory imput from events outside of the brain..

I have yet to see conclusive evidence proving either of these theories..so I guess you could say that the idea that it is all just hallucination is speculation at best..until someone can prove it one way or another.. it's all up in the air.

So I dunno what the point of being angry at eachother about all this is?..who the hell is anyone else to act like the authority on something noone can prove either way? It's just a bit arrogant.

The problem with that answer is there is no way to prove it either way, but its known that hallucinations are just that, hallucinations. No hallucination has ever been proved to be reality, unless this spirit has given you information that you can use to confirm its real, then you are just haveing faith that while you where hallucinating you saw a real spirit. I'm sure you could flip it and say i'm having faith its a hallucination, but gennearaly when your hallucinating, your hallucinating. And hallucinations have been proved to be false compaired to reality.

yes certain non ordinary perceptual experiences people may have been proven to be origionating from within..and certain phenomenon that come up on psychedelics such as geometry crawling on the walls seems to stem from internal neurological activity that is percieved extrenally..there is more evidence supporting that. But when we are talking about the high dose visions one experiences on certain tryptamines I dont think anyone really knows yet..

We dont even know that everything we see normally isnt an internally gernerated hallucination..

It is better to be open minded anyway abotu things we dont know yet..what is the point in believing in/not believing in something you dont have proof of either way?

Another thing I dont think many people take into account when discussing these things is culture. How do we know a "spirit" in the way we concieve of it, directly translates to how some person who has lived their whole life in the amazon outside of western culture concieves it..this is the problem with language and how people in the west think they can superimpose western values and worldviews overtop of indigenous cultures..simply by translating a word!..it's simply rediculous..

Do you know that some cultures concider blue and green to be the same color? Others dont have a word for that matches our concept of a "hallucination"..

In many ways I think that what indigenous peoples call spirits do exist..but it's nothing like what the word invokes in the western mind.

Western people for the most part dont get that. They dont underdtand that language and technology IS NOT the main barrier between cultures..world view is. Wrold views that basically uphold the very people who hold them and have kept them going for thousands of years. It has to do with the way a culture relates to what is around them..you cannot understand that from the outside..science has nothign here..NOTHING..unless you want to get into social sciences.

It's the same thing with the way we view religion and spirituality..we act like its something that can be transported from region to region! ALso rediculous...orgional tribal spirituality had to do with the land people are from..the plants the animals, the mountians, plain whatever..you cant transport that to another region..it would be silly and out of place.

This is what western culture tries to do though..they try to interprete everything indigenous peoples say from a western perspective..taking it out of context because western people think they are better and more intelligent, more sophisticated and have it all figured out..But they are not! in many ways we are far stupider!

When some indigenous man talks about respecting the spirit of this animal or that plant, western people laugh and act all better than the unintelligent native..yet it seems to be those same native peoples who actaully realize just what those plants and animals are giving to them..and what will happen when they cut down all those trees..harvest too many f thos emedicinal plants or kill all the animals off that feed them and keep them alive..you see these people are not stupid..they are very smart and just so happen to give a shit about life and can open they're eyes enough to realize that these things are why they are here and thriving..these "spirits" are what give them life..give them spirit..

Western culture is so bent of only seeing through this rediculous materialstic lense, thinking that everything everywhere should be defined they way they choose..destroying all diversity and any culture of worldview that is not it's own. It has no ties to the land or the things that really keep it going, and in return it seems to be in decline..falling apart at the seams.. How smart is that?

You think some man in the amazon who hunts everyday for his food and collects plants to heal and stay alive is goin to give a shit about how you go and tell him that that "spirit" he says is in that plant is really not a spirit and instead a chemical? What the hell is the difference? what damn difference is it going to make to him? None..not one bit of dman difference..in fact he might be better off withhis definition becasue maybe it comes from a worldview that holds things that give us life as a bit more sacred..one that shows a bit more respect..

Language reflects the culture that births it..of course a culture that holds things to be more sacred and has the brains to see how special everything here is is going to see things a little bit differently than we do..and that is going to seem odd to us..but in no way does that make them wrong, us better or more sophisticated..or mean that we can easily translate correctly how they actaully see the world..or what they mean they say what we translate as "spirit".

There is a huge difference between chemicals and spirits. Chemicals have specific properties. They are made of matter. Spirit is whatever people want it to be. Its a man made construct. It has no meaning except what culture gives it. Matter and energy has properties that exist outside of our cultural context even though we have a language of science and math to understand it.


Those who claim that there is no difference between hallucinations and normal waking reality have never looked at the evidence so don't say "i haven't seen any evidence" there is plenty of evidence. I posted some excellent studies in the OBE thread that clearly show OBE's are hallucinations happening in the mind.

I need some time to go through this thread to address specific points brought up. Then I can bring up more specifics.

Who is getting angry?? I thought we where just discussing.

I'm not trying to anger anyone, i'm saying from a logical sense its very ilogical to assume something you see out of the ordinary while, not just hallucinating, but hallucinating to an extreme, could be considered real when there is nothing that would insist it is real other than it feeling real, which is a known effect hallucinations can have. As burnt said, the OBE studies.

How did it jump to indigenous people? The people i was seeing saying these things where speaking english, which is my language, so it was pretty clear what they where saying.


Do we really need to break down and study every hallucination, maybe this one person is different and hallucinating some kind of reality? The problem is there is nothing to suggest its anything other than a hallucination, feeling real dosen't count, it falls in with hallucination.

I wouldn't see how we are hallucinating reality, hallucinating worlds can change from person to person, along with the spirits people see in them, but this reality is always the same, anyone can come after another to confirm it still is.

When I was out in Ecuador drinking aya with a shaman, we had a couple of evaluation sessions afterwards.
In a few cases, the shaman was able to see what an individual was seeing. He would begin by saying what he had seen in a person, then they would speak about their experience (we all wrote down our experiences beforehand). Also, he did not know any english, so there was another guy translating for us.
I was quite astounded, on the occasions when he could see what another was seeing. Most of the time, he was having visions related to the person but it was not the same as what they had seen on their journey.

After our first or second ceremony with him, he told that I had been visited by one of his ally spirits from a sacred lagoon, which came in the form of a fog. He told us the story of how he acquired this particular ally. The next ceremony, or the one after I cant remember, I had many visions of a fog - clear flashes of a fog, like it was backlit by a purple light.... it was only later that I made the connection.
The skeptics will say that I only saw the fog because of what he had said previously... but I can assure you, it felt very real.

After spending some time out there, talking with local people, it becomes apparent that the spirits of the plants and the forest are part of the fabric of their reality. After a while, one begins to accept this world-view, and the notion of 'spirits' becomes something more normal, especially when one has had direct experience.

I am not saying one should blindly believe in these things. Direct experience will show you, and you should make up your own mind. But also be careful not to blindly disbelieve... stay open to the fact that there are many possibilities.

a funny thing i've seen on the history channel is how some priests are saying that the visions that people speak of in the bibble are thought to come from ceremonies where they drink this sacred tea which gives them visions of god. That sounds very familiar, where they drinking DMT Tea and writing down what they saw while triping? Are all religions based on hallucinations?

I don't try to act as everything mystical is false, i'm known to be very interested in these things. But like i said before, the more i learn about reality and science, the more things i cross off my list of possibilities. I still think there may be some sort of connection people have through conscience, world or perhaps universal conscience. I still think theres something with Ghosts, weather there spirits or just some kind of energy left behind from horrible events. But both of those things actually have some sort of scientific recognition. There not proved but thought to be a possibility, but ghosts have been proved to be an occurence, weather there spirits or something else. They seem to only be present in high electromagnetic feilds.

"Hallucination", like "plant spirit", is not an explanation but a label. Both refer to an experience which is a real experience. The questions are: what is the nature of this experience? Why is this experience the way it is, and not some other way? Why does the brain consistently hallucinate an Other and communicate with it? Why is the communication meaningful and why does it impart useful information and insight? What, actually, is this Other? Why do different drugs produce different, characteristic expressions of the Other?

"How did it jump to indigenous people? The people i was seeing saying these things where speaking english, which is my language, so it was pretty clear what they where saying."

I brought it up because thats where these things come from..these plants and the traditional uses carry over into our culture..along with the concept of the plants..and everything having "spirit"...

I look at these things as plant spirits..I also look at them as molecules..

You know hoffman isolated psilocybin and brought it to Maria sabina..she took it and told them there was no spirit in it..they had no isoloated the mushroom spirit..he told her to wait 10 minutes..becasue of the time difference due to swallowing a purified alkaloid compared to chewing the mushroms in the mouth, whcih helps psilocybin absorb sublingually..

10 munites later she informed that yes..they had successfully siolated the mushroom spirit..I remember christian ratsch speaking about this..and talking about how this was spirt and matter comming together as one..how they were the same thing..again, this is NOT about science..it's about the way different people relate to what is around them.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than saying that a molecule has no spirit, or that a spirit is not a molecule..it's about how you view things..can you explain the universe and creation?,,from teh begining? why anything exists? Just because someone uses the term spirit in english also doesnt mean you suddenly understand what they are refereing to, or the context they are reffering to it in.

Depends on what "spirit" is to you..if yousee spirit infused throughout everything..and dont get the term "life" or whatever confused with spirit..than yes..everything has spirit to give..everythng comes from spirit. it wouldnt be here otherwise.

I understand what the science people are sayign here..and you have a valid point..but you have to understand..what i am talking about it sort of all science aside..I am talking about how language is used by different people according to how they see the world and relate what is around them to themslelves..really science gives us NO answer whatsoever at all reguarding why we are REALLY here..I think anyone who says it does is lying..

Science can tell us important and useful things..and I like science..I wanted to be a marine biologist for many mnay years..science can tell us the HOW..but not the why..it doesnt give us answeres to those real deep philiophical questons..and that is why we have philosophy..

Scince can tell us alot about the structure of things..but it doesnt seem to be able to tell us why that first structure ever existed in the first place..why things exist at all.

WHen someone tells me that everything is sacred and has spirit..it doesnt mean to me that they dont understand science..thats arrogant. What it means to me is that they just have a certain way of relating to things..on a philisophical level..you cannot expect someone else to use your terminology all the time..it might not suit them or the way they choose to look at things.

Why do humans tend to think we are here for any kind of reason?? Why would there have to be a reason? It seems that we are a product of the chemistry, life has been created in the lab ya know, would it have a purpose for exsiting also?


Yes, i can see that you're not reffering to spirit as what most people would, as in an the spirit of a human, in your deffinition a human would have millions of spirits being we are made of millions of molecules, are you reffering to spirit as matter?

But i don't see how i'm not understanding what there saying, god i wish someone could come in here to explain how they mean the spirit in salvia can feel disrespected and choose to not let you trip, that would grealty help me point out what i'm talking about. I wasn't speaking of how many deffinitions could be given to spirit, the poeple i'm talking about where reffering directly to salvia having a spirit, like a person not in this world, able to communicate with you, you could not say there speaking of molecules.

I know, i'll try to find some sources to give you examples, shouldn't be to hard to find, these people are all over the web.