We can use context clues here, because we aren't idiots. It's relevant because: Imagine a thread in another forum about people's opinions of the psychedelic experience, but nobody in the conversation has ever taken a psychedelic drug. As men who have never had to experience what it means to be a woman in this society, our "opinion" on the matter doesn't really count for much.


In North America, only about 5% of victims of sexual assault report to the police because survivors are (reasonably) afraid they will not be believed, or that their abuser will become more violent. Out of every 1,000 sexual assaults, about 30 are processed as a crime--and 3 result in conviction. 1 in 3 women will experience sexual assault in their lifetime, compared to 1 in 6 men. Over 80% of women with physical disabilities will experience sexual assault in their lifetime. In 99% of reported cases involving sexual assault, the perpetrator is male. In Canada, it costs the state $4.8 billion dollars annually dealing with instances of sexual assault, compared to $3.1 billion dollars dealing with gun violence.

You can fact-check me on all of this.

The problem is embedded into our culture. It's clearly an issue. "Not buying it" is part of this culture. We need to listen to the people who are telling us about their experiences, not disbelieving them or coming up with excuses to justify what happened.

Also, "Rape Culture" was coined in the 1970's--but nice try.


Feminism is all about the freedom to choose. I know plenty of feminist women who enjoy conventional gender roles for themselves. They are feminist because they acknowledge that simply because that's the default in our society, not every woman wants that.

Furthermore, in 2014 in the US women were collectively paid only 79% of what men were paid for doing the same work. The wage gap still exists. Then there's the issue of representation. Lots of people here listen to EDM and go to electronic music festivals, but how many artists or headliners can you name that are women? How many men can you name? Feminism exists because these problems haven't been solved, and many women are disillusioned and angry about that. They are sick of having to explain themselves over and over to men who "don't buy it" despite the overwhelming amount of evidence staring them in the face. People are allowed to be angry at injustice.

When it comes to rape culture, you know what i think? Maybe within some circles, love is actually a far greater taboo than sexuality.

Take the homophobia within islamic spheres. It's easy to fall for the 'sodomy-explanation', and believe that sex is actually what it's all about. But most of the homosexual man actually don't do anal sex at all, and for lesbians this is even more so. Furthermore, many straight muslim men, do very often have anal sex. And for many muslim women, the first time in their lives they'll have sex, it will be anal sex. This is because of the obsession many muslims have with female virginity. So sodomy cannot be the reason why many muslims tend to be so homophobic.

I think the big taboo is love, and not sex. The idea that you can love whoever you love. Freely, without coercion.

Looking at islamic culture, and looking at porn culture, i think many men within those scenes are treating women as objects because they either never had love, or because they're afraid of it.

Within islamic culture, arranged marriages are quite normal. And within the porn subculture, trying to detach sex and love as much as possible is also more or less the norm.

Maybe some people are not fully capable of love because it makes them feel insecure or weak.

Please speak for yourself



...and women do not know what problems men are suffering from. Since male and female problems are sometimes interrelated, it makes sense to promote mutual understanding.



Ok, but who is at fault here? If you want injustice to get noticed, you have to bring it to someones attention.



Then, it would be interesting to know what actually counts as sexual assault. Also, these kinds of actions are hard to prove and the results for men are extreme should they be persecuted for false reasons. So that isn't a sign of rape culture in my opinion, just of good reasoning and fairness.



Do you believe most men are willing to risk their maleness by reporting sexual crimes against themselves? They probably should if they care though....just another way to look at these statistics.



No, it is disagreement, which is the cornerstone of free speech and debate culture.



That is something i can agree with.



To my knowledge, the "gender pay gap" studies do NOT factor in different work choices, and work hours logged. I this regard, it makes sense to assume that women are paid less if they are taking up lower paid jobs or working less because of children for instance. Please provide a source for your claims. Correlation does not imply causation.



People aare allowed to do anything, they just have to live with the consequences. In this case, not being heard in this matter because anger does not further a good debate.

@dragonrider



This is a very bold claim. Pornography is designed to satisfy lust and in male pornography, the female is, of course sex object only...because she serves the purpose of pure sexual gratification. That doesn't make the man watching it incapable of loving a woman. IF it does, please explain why.

I think that separating sex and love has become more or less a pavlovian type of behaviour for many people in the porn-biz. Maybe some people have become so obsessed with taboo's, or with breaking them, that they've become like slaves.

If you've Always been told that sex, lust or pleasure is very bad, and giving in to it is a'sin', maybe at some point, you become totally obsessed with 'sinning'.

To give you an example of what i mean: i don't find slapping women is very erotic. There is realy nothing about slapping women, that is intrinsically erotic. It rather is a form of humiliation, i would say. Yet porn actors often tend to slap women. They do it cassually. I don't think they'll even think about it anymore. It's like a reflex. When they're doing their thing, they will often slap the women they're fucking in the face, without thinking. As if slapping a person in the face is an innevitable part of the sexual experience.

I fear that many people will even disagree with me, and say that slapping IS intrinsically erotic, just because they've been programmed this way by watching too much porn.

The same about slapping can ofcourse be said about things like bondage, squeezing a womens' throat, or putting objects in a womans anus. There's nothing intrinsically (the word intrinsically is important) erotic about these things. Yet they all are, in some sense intrinsically humiliating.

Then it is interesting to note, that according to a study done by the university of montreal, 30-60% of female phantasies revolve around submission. http://onlinelibrary.wil....1111/jsm.12734/abstract

This could, of course be cultural, but evolutionary psychologists would probably refute that.
The idea that women like rough sex only because of porn is a bit bold. Or is your point that women dislike it but men do it anyways ("Rape culture" ?

If you take a look the picture that was uploaded previous to your above post, you see perfectly the kind of feminism that I'm referring too: this third wave. The person I had the original heated debate with was of this social media obsessed gender-studies type. She was perhaps the victim of some asshole man, and so now has an ax to grind against all men. And this seems to be today's feminist. Their goal seems to be the abolition of gender as a whole, seemingly because they're so unhappy being women, which to them de facto means victims. A lot of actual feminist are quite rightly disgusted by the whole thing, IMHO.

I agree that existance of a rape culture is doubtful...the main reasoning I hear is that woman are afraid to admit that rape has happened, and that conviction rates are extremely low for said crime...but these are very poor proofs of some kind of rape culture.

I think a lot of this third wave feminism is just woman that are angry about being woman. Not so much concerned with the existance of inequality, but more at the fact that yes, walking alone in dark alleys is a bad idea (though of course doing so could never be labelled as "asking for it" ), wearing a bra is a pain, feeling like you don't fit the idea of someone beautiful can hurt...but instead of realizing that this is just life, just how it is, it's more rewarding to label oneself a victim of the patriarchy.

Yes, i think it's a form of pavlovian conditioning. With or without porn. Maybe those women where physically or emotionally abused as a child, or they came from a family with a dominant father and a submissive mother and they've come to believe that this is simply the way it's supposed to be.

I mean, there has also been a research showing that the majority of women in england find men with bearbellies sexually atractive (i'm willing to bet that this is also income related btw).

If that would have been a biological thing, you would expect this to be universally so, and not just in england.

Basically, this patriarchal society has for a long time put women one a higher level than men, hoping that women be more polite, more clean, more kind and loving, more friendly and less aggressive, that they have better manners and swear less (the list goes on). We men open the door for the ladies, they go first. There's a certain sacredness attributed to woman, even if some men are jerks. Yet, instead of living up to that well deserved sacredness and encouraging men to do the same, many of the third wave types would rather be angry and do everything in their power to seperate themselves from sacredness, from the ideal "lady". In so doing they tend to adopt a certain amorality to them, act more like animals/objects, and this harms not only feminism but, as per my original thesis, probably encourages rape culture and objectification.

I don't think your analysis is entirely correct.
Biologically, and this is true for most mammals, men tend to Always want sex or at least to be a lot more needy in this sense than women. This simply puts women in a more powerfull position. In nature it works more or less the same way: the males have to prove to the females that they're 'worthy' so that the female is ensured of the best genetic material.
All that 'lady' and 'gentlemen' stuff, and putting women on a pedestal is just the human way of playing this very simple game. It's a way for men to show that they've got the right fitness, so the right kind of genes.

Rapists generally tend to be losers who don't posses the right kind of genes. They become rapists because 1-they can't get sex the natural way, because they're losers, and 2-because of this they've become sexually frustrated individuals with a resentment against women in general.

And these third wavers you mention...i don't think they're actually very relevant. That probably explains their whole ideological position: If as a woman you're not sexually atractive, that would mean in this darwinian logic, that your place in the social hierarchy tends to be even below that of unfit men. That must be frustrating, so to ideologically reject the whole social hierarchy is actually a pretty rational response.

This entire response is brilliant, and I agree with it point by point, except for the third wavers being irrelevant. They should be irrelevant, but more and more, I see feminism as whole being tainted by them, and women in general being tainted by their attitudes.

I think it's very interesting that you point out that nature puts women in the postion of power. Though society is patriarchal, at the fundamental level of individual's interactions, women hold the power by genetic default.

We all emerge into this world through a vagina.

And i'm sure a good many of us wanna cum back to where we once belonged...

Ok. I am a woman I swear. And for all intents and purposes I guess you could describe me as a "feminist". I believe in equality for everyone. I believe that everyone should have the equal right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as they see put, as long as their behavior doesn't harm their fellow man/woman either physically or mentally. I believe everyone has a right to not be seen as a sexual object. People aren't "objects." when you start out in life you are full of so much potential and personality and dreams and wants and desires. You may lose sight of that as you grow older but they are still there within you. This fact makes it impossible for me to see anyone as merely a sexual object. It is why i look beyond appearance into The soul of other people. Those that want to be treated as sexual objects are a byproduct of a sick society, that values only looks; think about it, for ages The rich and wealthy have set The standard for what is attractive and trendy and us plebians eat it up trying to emulate it. The media tells us women have to be stick thin supermodels because thats The epitome of beauty and showy peacocking men are what women actually desire. Its shoved down our from a young age and so we are brought up believing it to be true. Its programmed into us to be obsessed with our appearances and those of others and so; there we get The sexual objectification. The rape culture. The desire to want others to desire you. The degradation of The "sacredness" and value of sex. Its a very damaging way of thinking and I can personally attest to that As Ive suffered from a pretty severe eating disorder, BDD and pathetically low self esteem since I was <13 years old; simply because i feel As though in not up to snuff with what women are "supposed" to look like. As Terrance McKenna said; culture is a mass programed hallucination. He is right.


The notion that "no one is equal" is a myth perpetuated by an elitist upper class, those of the same ilk that promote these unhealthy attitudes towards other humans and our lack of values regarding sex. Its a dangerous and unproductive way of thinking imo.I dont believe it has anything to do with relinquishing Judeo Christian morals at all. Dehumanizing us is the easiest way to keep us distracted from the mass injustices of the world. For instance i despise Christianity. I reject almost all parts of the religion, however, i believe in fidelity in a relationship. Polygamy just isn't for me. Thats not to say i'm against it. If it works for you And your partner is ok with it and you are RESPONSIBLE about it, then thats on you.

If your obsessing over spray tans and the latest brand of designer jeans and which celebrity just got a boob job, will you be concerned with which of your rights just got signed away with this next Bill?( and yes Im limiting my experience to American terms. I'm American and this society is all I really know. sorry if its different in your neck of the woods). NO. not even a little.

I personally hate Third wave Feminism and the masculist movement that arose in response to it. I find those that think they are superior than everyone else solely on the basis of their genetics are disgusting and presumptuous. Ive met a lot of feminists like that. Ive also met a lot of feminists that freak out over the dumbest shit, like a man holding a door open for a woman.

One of my favorite stories about a stupid feminist; a friend had brought this girl over ( I guess they were dating) to another friends house and we were staying there for the weekend. He had brought a case of beers as well as a six pack and after we finished the six pack he let everyone have on beer from the case. He had to go to work soon and he said he Would be back later and then we could have more but he didn't want everyone drinking up his beer while he was gone (understandable). So this girl basically says "ill suck yout d*** for another beer." to which my friend replies; "now you're the only one NOT getting a beer." (he's a good dude)

She completely flips out and they go down stairs to argue and then we hear the sounds of fists meeting flesh. We go downstairs and she is wailing on him while he's standing in the corner with his arms up trying to defend himself. He finally lets one looses and catches the side of her face and she stops throwing blows and starts crying and screaming "how could you hit a girl??!" mind you his face is covered in bruises and she barely even has a mark. And my friends all symathize with her and make him leave. I left with him I was so disgusted. Im sorry guys, but no matter how much weaker you think we are than you, if a woman is attacking you, you have every right to defend yourself. She got what she deserved. and thats the kind of feminism I hate.

So yeah, thats why I hesitate to call myself a feminist. I'm not he women do no wrong and should be empowered through perpetual victimhood type feminist. I guess in just the I deserve to be able to go jogging with out being hit on and then called a bitch after I dont respond type feminist. ( it happens more than youd think). Sorry about the lengthy response. I 52nd to get rather verbose in these matters which is why I usually choose to say nothingwhen they are brought up.

Are you insinuating that all third wave feminists are physically unattractive?? What a narrowmineed point of view. I know plenty of "third wavers" that would fit(im assuming just like you) your standards of beauty; big breasts flat bellies round butts and heaps of makeup right? Yeah. No. Maybe we are just tired of this obsession over our appearance being the status quo. Maybe we dont want to have to be perfectly polite and shave all out hair off and not belch in public. Maybe we want to act and look like normal human beings too without being judged. Sorry if thats offensive to you .
Man the shit women used to put themselves through just to be attractive to men? Corsetts so tight you might pass out from lack of air? Belladonna drops to keep your pupils dilated so that you could look "seductive" but make you go blind? I dont care If humans have been doing this for years and years. Humans have done lots of things in the past that were morally reprehensible and those behaviors have slowly changed. This is another one of those things that has to change. We aren't "mere animals" and all the time I hear people talking about how much more evolved they are and apparently Its totally cool to go against ones "biology" if you feel like you might be born the wrong gender, but bring up issues like this and all you get is men saying "but its in our nature!!" to protect the bad habits they dont want to break. I dont agree with a lot of the aspects of this rape culture theory but I do think there certainly is still a dangerous disadvantage to being a woman in this society. Man I really thought the people on this site were a little more "enlightened" but I guess i was wrong. This is why I dont like to have these sorts of conversations with men. They cant see two inches past their noses in these matters. Whatever im out.

I think you may be misinterpreting the gist of what he was saying. It's not that the third wave feminist are unattractive, it's that that they don't feel as accepted (for whatever reason), and so that's why they reject the whole social hierarchy, gender etc.

You do realize you're talking about having having sex with your mother? Just a tab disturbed by that.

Is there something wrong with that?
Or maybe its because the social hierarchy is stupid and needs to change?? And there Just arent a practical place for gender roles in our society anymore? Yes, everyone has the right to choose which role they want to fulfill but now it should be voluntary as opposed to something ingrained in society. I like to make parallels to the civil rights movement and the systematic mistreatment of people of color by whites when people bring up hierarchy, simply because the notion that whites are superior and the notion that men are superior are both long standing practices and ones based out of fear and ignorance and prejudice.
Its the same thing. Black people dont want to be stereotyped and treated as though they all act a certain way. The same goes for women. No one wants to be put on a pedastal (i guess i shouldn't say no one in sure some people relish it). Its more like being put under a magnifying glass. For real.
Especially since all these prejudices and social injustice are put in place simply to keep us divided so we dont unite against our common enemy (but thats a story for another time).

*sigh*

Before this ad-hominem shitstorm gets any funnier/stupider, i'd highly suggest that all interested parties read Freud's Interpretation of Dreams and society and its discontents; those masterpieces could shine hella light on this circle-jerkingly age-old conversation to nowhere.

Please though, everyone, PLEASE read up on some Freud before you mistakenly stumble on down into the bulk of his life's work.

Lizz pretty much nipped the nuts off this circle-jerking thread. Thank you for getting things straightened out and put back into their proper cages. I'm just gon' follow suit, leave this thread in the dust to die and get back to the things in life which actually matter (Freud, drugs, orgo, & all that jazz).

Selah.