This is what I wanted to say.

I cant imagine a more hard core system of spirituality then believing that there are people out there whose spirits leave there bodies and turn into animals and manipulate the world. It seems like if this was the case there would be no stopping a shaman or maybe a cult of shamans from conquering the universe. It seems absurd that they would use this magic abality to attack each other. This belief system has the potential to be used as a way for an individual or group to gain power and use fear to control.

The same could be said for wetern civilization in general. I really dont think you are seeing this rationally..you seem to want to argue you're opinion as if I somehow believe or even think I myself could transform into some animal..well id rather just leave the whole thing be, because what someone else says.. someone from an entire diff worldview than I, I take with a grain of salt..not becasue I think they are liers trying to gain controll or power, but because I am not recieving it from the same cultural standpoint as them..so how could I really know for sure what they are refferrring to??

And did you even bother to read my post?? I put forth one perfectly good reason for these things, totems(with animal/human blending), stories of anthropomorphism and animistic worldviews..becasue it was crutial for survival. they told the stories of the land, the tribal history..taught about survial in the forest, desert, etc, how to hunt, what to avoid, etc etc..weather or not actual transformations happens isnt my point..my point is that these beliefs and practices DO have a purpose, survival.

Just remember, not everyone speaks you're language(even if they do), so dont expect that when something is said, it immediatly means to the speaker, what it means to you when you hear it.

Don't be confused...
Shape shifting, in my opinion, is not always about becoming something else.
It is the act of moving your awareness into the body of another creature.
There is loads of evidence of this in interviews with people who have gone to the amazon for ayahuasca healing. (Birds, especially)
I have personal experience with this. I think it's standard practice. ;]

I dont evenknow how all this science stuff really has anything on spiritual /theosophical thought anyway...its all about the DETAILS of the thing..so where the hell did the thing come from than anyway?

Yeah I agree with that. I have had similar experiences with entheogens, merging with other poeple, animals, plants, seeing through anothers eyes etc..not that far fetched.

Quantum mechanics shows that quantum events happen WITHOUT CAUSE.



Concerning all this astral darts and shapeshifting stuff. Its all happening in the mind. There is no evidence that a shaman can kill another shaman with these experiences. A shaman may think another shaman died becasue of these reasons but its probably more likely the shaman killed himself taking too many jungle drugs.

I already explained why this duality is a misnomer.



In the quantum world there is no cause. Things literally happen spontaneously. Like radioactive decay.

Anyway again your are misinterpreting the wavefunction. Its just a mathematical abstraction. The collapse is just a term for when we get the answer.

The fact that things are totally random in the quantum world is actually why the universe has come to exist the way it does now. This is very important for the evolution of the universe. Otherwise matter would have never clumped.

Also just because things at the quantum level are chaotic doesn't mean things at the macroscale are. For example when you spin a wheel all those quantum particles go with it.

Saying its all consciousness is really meaningless. There is no basis for these statements and that is the myth I am trying to dispel.



Anyway this is not an argument about language. I am trying to deconstruct the entire notion of spiritual. I want to see if there is anything remotely valid about the entire idea. I feel there is not. I am running on an entirely materialistic world view until that world view fails. So far it has NEVER failed. So far none of these arguments about shamans turning into birds mean anything. Sure anyone can trip out and think they turned into a bird or a tiger. Doesn't mean it happened. To be honest I don't believe the shamans when they say stuff like this. I do not believe they are seeing the dead. Why? Because I saw the dead too and I still think it was all in my head.

I want to add that I am very open to explanations about why people think spirit is real or justified. Half the reason I have these debates is because I want someone out there to convince me. No one has ever done that. I read all the same kinds of literature and did all kinds of drugs and at the end of the day for me personally science still prevails. I often hear two arguments from people these days (excluding religious zealots) 1- quantum mechanics 2- psychedelic or mystical experiences. I hope I have clarified why quantum mechanics cannot be used to justify such ideas. If I have not done a good enough job check out this new book by Victor Stenger called Quantum Gods.

Next I would like to discuss why the psychedelic or mystical experience may be explained in a purely materialistic sense. The same will go for consciousness after we deal with mystical experiences. I am busy for the next week or so but I will get back to ya'll.

For me, quantum mechanics isn't the be all end all of proof of something greater than ourselves. But it is a signpost along the path. It gives a possible scientific explanation to the nature of reality and how our consciousness constructs it. It may have nothing to do with consciousness, it may have everything to do with consciousness, there is evidence either way, but I tend to believe the latter.

My own spirituality comes from personal experience, and in the grand scheme of things I imagine it is the same for everyone. Science provides ways to explain the experiencies I've had, and combining Holographic/Quantum/Super-String/Fractal/Sacred Geometry disciplines into my cognitive world view shows me a path to the divine oneness of all creation. That is spirituality for me, we are all part of the same energy experiencing itself.

The personal experiences that have led me down this path? Twofold.

First are the experiences I've had on dmt and ayahuasca, which have opened up a world of mystery that I could never have imagined in my wildest dreams. Those experiences sent me searching for answers, and I found them after much study and intent. It is my own personal connection to All That Is. No two person's experiences will be exactly the same, but they all lead back to the same place. I can now feel the connection, and see the patterns of manifestatiion without the use of drugs of any kind. The veil has been lifted to a certain degree, and much of life has become obvious in its intent.

The second experience which has contributed significantly to my awakening and understanding is the rememberance of a past life. I can remember certain details about my last incarnation, how it ended, and the lessons I was meant to learn in this incarnation. Once this realization came all the trials and tribulations, successes and failures, joys and temptations of this life came into perfect claity. This was accomplished with a combination of meditation and past life regression techniques employed by a liscened hypnotherapist. Obviously they could be wrong, but the memories are there and quite clear. If I can remember a past life, then it follows that we all experience multiple incarnations on various dimensional levels, all for the purpose of experiencing the creation and learning.

We each have our own path to tread. Everyone will have their own particular paradigms for what they experience in their lifetimes. Do I expect anyone to conform to or believe that which I have experienced? No, not at all. But it is my expression of experience as manifested in this reality. I think therefore I am, and my experience is unique just as everyone else's is as well. Beleif in more than oneself is irrelevant, we all came from and are all going back to the same place. We will all arrive there eventually. But at this time the veil is thinning, and some of us are more sensitive to it than others. It all depends on what you came here to do.

My biggest frustration is when people talk about reality as being purely subjective. In some instantes the human senses can be decieved but reality is not subjective. My reasoning for this is the existance of language. Language shows that we a common reference point by which we form our notion of reality. It shows that my reality is the same as your reality and everybody else's reality, as long as they have a properly functioning brain. Is there was not a common reality, there would be no basis for the development of language.

Well, language IS subjective...unless you are talking about telepathy??..It DOES NOT(spoken language anyway) show evidence of my reality being the same as anyone elses..I constantly get into quite polarized discussions about the nature of reality, with others who speak english as well..plus, language changes.. and words are only aproximations anyway, that we use when and how we personally see fit.

If what you are sayign was true, than we would all be on the same page, seeing the apparent "objectiveness" of reality simply becasue we have language??

I dont think we could even take this discussion any farther than it has gone without at least honoring the notion of non-duality. i cant deny subject over object,real vs non-real, or vice versa, both are there, playing respective roles within the whole..whatever that may be..all this talk of "objectiveness" and " common reality" just seems well, rather late to the party...

This whole notion of "common reality" seems so far fetched..the fact that discussions like this are taking place proves it..unless you are willing to admit that the only universally "common" thing about "reality" is that noone can really come to any agreement as to what its all about anyway. A teacher once stated, "I can live with the fact that some people will always think of authors as experts, as long as it is duly noted that the universal characteristic of experts is that they normally disagree with one another"..

For me, spiritualism is not about some worldview based on details(science) and abstractions...If I found out tommorow with 100% assurity that there was no such thing as "life after death", I would still live the rest of my life with a spiritual mindset because no matter what science says, it cannot take away the completely amazing, awe-inspiring, incomprehensible and beautiful fact that I AM HERE TODAY.I can love and that love has the ability to lift, to transform, that is magic.. That is beautiful, that is inspiring, that is why I am spiritual..science has nothing on that.

BTW..I am not at odds with science, I just think it's only half of the picture. I recognise its importance, but also feel that it has it's boundries(well not really becasue it is a constantly growing field, but some dont seem to really see that)

^^Yes!! I dig that, Fractal Enchantment!

Great post man!

This was posted by Jumiem in another thread..
1: Everything that exists is language.
2: Everything that happens is communication.
3: Everything else is nothing at all.


This statement here would at first seem to be at odds with what I said above, in response to visual distortions post..I said that language(spoken) was SUBJECTIVE..However..I dont really have much of a problem with the way that jumiem chose to put it..I am fine with the idea that there is some sort of "universal language" that dictates everything that goes on..but that sort of thing is on another level in my opinion, far beyond the capacity of spoken word. We as humans, as people, as citizens of a culture, live subjective lives, we are seperate(yet I still believe in a grande connection at another level)..not sure if this is what you meant viual distortion?? This is just another example of why I really like the whole non duality thing.

I see it all as the great integration. It's what things do..they exist-and then they extend. Existance on one level(lower) is subjectiveness, individuality..we communally live seperate lives, seperate existances..yet we extend..in so many direction, co-creating new levels of organization and cooperation, of unity..of objective realities(as opposed to one reality). I think the thing is never ending, infinite..non dualistic.

Burnt..I would be interested on hearing you're opinion of this..when it comes down to the untimate nature of whatever it all is, do you see it as finate, or infinite, or varrying degres of both?

this in no way possible ends spiritualism... yet lends to further questions of the nature of the perceived phenomena my friend...

I agree..no matter how well science can explain away the nature of reality, there will alwasy be someone on the sidelines thinking bigger..wondering whats outside that perfect little box..and where that box came from in the first place..you see, it's not that science is wrong, or useless..it's that, ultimatily, science is secondary..to what you say?? well that is the point..

“The answer is never the answer. What's really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you'll always be seeking. I've never seen anybody really find the answer -- they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.”

-Ken Kesey

Before moving on I will respond to comments directed at my previous statements.



You are talking about science as if it operates in a close minded box. That is not true at all. Some of the best science is accomplished by thinking outside the box.

I don't get your point about science is secondary. Its a way to answer questions about the world and it works better then any other method out there.

My point is that spiritualism has NO evidence. The materialistic reality out there has TONS of evidence. So why is the burden of proof always put on the scientists? Why is it never put on the spiritualists or religious? We can do what we do without religion or spirituality and get much further and answer real questions and solve real problems.



How do you know how complicated the universe is without science? Religion and spirituality attempted to simplify the world with nonsense explanations about how it got there in the first place. Of course some spiritual beliefs say the universe is so complicated that we can never understand it which might be true but if we had that attitude we wouldn't be sitting here on computers talking about it.

I have explained something. I said that quantum mechanics does not explain spiritual phenomenon. As far as I know and most quantum physicists know what I said in my original post is correct.

For example some people make the claim that quantum mechanics provides an explanation for psychic phenomenon. I am saying it does not for reasons I already stated. I also gave reference for further information. Nothing about psychic phenomenon has ever been proven to be correct in any experiment. The only correct thing about it is that some people think they experience it. I will get back to personal experience later.

Just because Ken Kesey made a comment about how when you get an answer you get more questions doesn't mean the more we know = the less we know. The more we know = the more we know and thus are able to ask questions we were previously not able to do without knowing. You see?



It does give an explanation about the nature of reality at the subatomic level but it does NOT say that consciousness constructs objective reality. If it does start trying to prove it instead of making claims that it does. Most people make these claims but never bother even attempting to prove them and when they do you don't hear about it because they are usually wrong.



Whats so far fetched about common reality? Who is arguing about what reality is?

Reality is the matter and energy that make it up. Is there matter we don't understand? Sure dark matter and dark energy. Is there things we don't get about reality like why do particles have mass? Sure but we are looking for those answers. Only science will answer these questions. Sure experts will disagree. But when one is proven correct over the other science moves on. Religion and spiritualism do not do this. They don't prove anything.



I can't answer that. I don't know. I'd say that our visible universe is finite on both large and small scales. But I wouldn't be surprised if there were potentially infinite universes or a bigger universe beyond what we can see out there. But this isn't something I can speculate about with any kind of certainty until more evidence comes to the table which may not happen any time while I am alive.

Alright moving on...

I tried to point out that quantum mechanics is not some kind of magical explanation for spiritual phenomenon like psychic stuff, ghosts whatever anything supernatural. Those things are still supernatural despite all the quantum weirdness out there.

Some people still don't believe me and that's fine. I recommend those who don't agree with me to figure it out for themselves like I did. Many of you will probably won't or will stop when you read a book or article that confirms your beliefs and that is your choice. I won't force my opinion down your throat. But my opinion is not my opinion really at all its based on the data. So far all the data out there confirms what I have said.

I am not a quantum physicist so I can't mathematically explain everything but there are people out there who can. Talk to them and learn from them. Stop believing pseudoscience and those who spread it (often for their own personal monetary gain).

Lets drop discussions about the subjectivity of language or overly philosophical arguments about reality and focus on the topic. If anyone has any objections to what I said about quantum mechanics and spiritualism state them but if you are to make a claim I am going to have to at this point ask that you back it up. I can't just keep refuting every claim that isn't backed up by anything its too time consuming and it gets off topic.


So where I want to go next is personal experience. I want to try and explain how personal experience does not provide evidence that spiritual phenomenon are real.

But first I want to ask you all how has personal experience in your mind confirmed or expanded your spiritual beliefs? Saidin already said something about his/her story so if anyone else has any similar brief stories to add please do. I can even add some of my own (although now I see it much differently).

Then I want to smash all those hopes and beliefs in a nice way.