That remark can works both ways and to be honest it sounds a a bit like prejudice.

Also with the same prejudice you can easily change it to:

"Until you have really been sick, to the point where you feel like it is ruining your life and see first hand how western medicine cured that illness"

Often I see people by default agitate towards anti-depressants without real merit (not you jamie). For example, I have two friends who are on anti-depressants and without them their life would be worse as it is now. It is not the perfect solution due to these medicine having unwanted side effects but it is better than using nothing.

One of these friends even tried several entheogens like micro dosing on mushroom and harmalas to mitigate the depression but unfortunately they did not work on him even after taking them for quite some time. Also several advised diet changes (both medical and 'alternative' did not work.


So I think that we should be careful with any prejudice towards both 'western' medicine and 'shamanic' healing (which btw is ambiguous since there is not 'one' shamanic healing).


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Not going to debate, but I'd just like to add my 2 cents on the subject of Castaneda...

I got a lot out of Castaneda's books and especially the book, The Teachings of Don Carlos: Practical Applications of the Works of Carlos Castaneda by Victor Sanchez, which cuts through the stories and condenses many of the teachings and techniques:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1879181231

The key is to not take the stories (or Carlos) too seriously, but to understand the system of knowledge as a whole. It took me a while but once I did, and started to actually practice the techniques, many connections were made and it resonated perfectly with my own knowledge and experiences, especially with lucid dreaming, bi-location/astral projection, and entheogens.

I could care less about the medium through which the knowledge is passed on, it works for me and has changed my life for the better.

If you've read all the books and your ego gets offended by Castaneda, you've missed the point completely.

To quote myself from another Castaneda thread:



That's all I'll say about that here, so to avoid derailing this thread much further, here's a few links to Castaneda threads if anyone wishes to revive them for discussion:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=40258

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=27669

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=33280

I too have suffered from the malpractice of western medicine myself extensively from my early teens to my 20th year, when I swore off their medications. They(Psychiatrists in agreement with my Mom) started drugging me for ADHD when I was 9 years old!
Having been consistently drugged for "ADHD" they have switched medications far too often far too quickly. This in combination with a stressfull home situation led me into a 1+ year Psychosis.

In that Psychosis I became so deranged & quite frankly dangerous to myself and to others that I was submitted in a Psych Ward, where Psychiatrists (who had a large hand in making me go apeshit in the first place) continued to try 1 drug after the other on me. And what horrible drugs they were. Various Benzos, Non-benzos, Ritalin, Xeroquel, Orap and many more.
I felt like a guinnypig. I suspect I WAS a guinnypig. Furthermore I was treated like a sub-human and it became increasingly clear that, appart from superficially applying Pavlovian conditioning mostly through punishing "bad" behaviour, they had no plan for healing me. They had no goal in mind for me. They didn't care either. In fact they actively tried to ruin my school carreer: The only thing I was still successfull in despite my Psychosis.

I actually developped quite some trust issues inside of that Psych Ward.


So I know quite well the depths of Western Psychology. This lead me to loathe it & seek alternatives. This is also why, for a while, I idealised and overromanticised Shamanism.
But in time I saw that this dark side of Western Psychology is not all & there are some very bright ideas & theories, like Jung's, to be found in Western thought. And that Shamanism is equally flawed as Western Psychology & Medicine.



But this leaves us to pick out the bad in all these ideologies & assemble a new ideology from only the best of all ideologies. This is where the various traditions of Shamanism & Western Psychology can merge into a new, richer & more diverse tradition of healing.

And that is up to us.

^

SKA, you put everything in the same pot, ending up overgeneralizing. "Western" medicine is not exclusively U.S. based medicine. If you want to bash the people who gave you ADHD medication, try to be more specific, and not draw conclusions about all types of "Western" psychology/psychiatry. In the UK, no one gives out stimulants for ADHD, they aggressively refuse to prescribe, due to the side effects you accurately described. Some cultures view medicine under a different light, as do practitioners within the same culture, all that within "Western" medicine.

How am I over generalising?

I clearly state in that post that despite having first hand
experiences of malpractice in western psychology & medicine,
I was advising people NOT to discredit western psychology & medicine
as, despite the obvious malpractices, I DO see alot of wisdom in it too.
Actually that was the whole point of that post.

So actually I was agreeing with you and yet you still jump at me.
This needlessly combative attitude makes forum discussions so silly & so pointless.

I've never visited a healer, so i cant really comment on that. I've used psychedelics/plants/diet to heal myself from various things, but have also been healed of other ailments with the help of 'western medicine'. Its too complex to generalize and say flat out one trumps the other IMO. They'd be more powerful when mixed.

And i'm sure both can often be a double edged sword in some ways...For example, my brother was born with a LOT of problems...and probably wouldn't have lived at all if it wasn't for western medicine. That being said, they also monumentally screwed up one of his many surgeries and left him with even more severe brain damage.. Now, in his twenties, he is even less cognitively aware than when he was an infant. Its unbearable to watch home videos of us as kids and to see him actually speak words.

My point is that neither is perfect and both has its ups and downs...That is just one rather extreme example in the case of western medicine. I'm sure there is equally extreme examples from peoples experiences with shamanic healing.

Making this discussion into a Western Medicine VS Shamanic Medicine thread just seems ridiculous to me. I see people who naively idealize shamans, just as i see people who naively idealize doctors, and everything in between...We have to adapt and learn as much as we can about as many routes to healing as possible in my opinion. Instead of fighting over which is better, its more interesting to ask how we can improve and integrate the two.

But as far as which misconception (in regards to people thinking doctors/shamans knowing everything) seems more prevalent in the world, and which has a larger overall negative impact? Personally it seems blatantly obvious when zooming out and looking at the larger situation in the world that the idealization of doctors as some sort of all knowing arbiter of health knowledge seems FAR more prevalent and FAR more damaging overall than the this much less frequently seen idea that a shaman is able to cure/know everything. I'm not aiming this at anyone... but if you really think that has done more damage than this widespread idealization of doctors, then you are just kidding yourself and need to open up your eyes and take a good hard look around.

This.

I agree UC. I think that if people put down their swords and read each other's comments without overlaying any aggressive tone or intent... I think it is clear that the vast majority of the posts here are speaking towards a broad openness to the best of both modalities. Some leaning more towards modern western medicine and some more towards natural and indigenous techniques, but I haven't seen any of the stalwarts or idealizers spoken of on this thread... here on this thread as it were.

Surely they exist, but as you suggest (and I mentioned before as well) the prevalence of people who trust and idealize their doctors, the often terrible pills they hand out like Pez dispensers, and the clinical trials that spawn them is far higher in our society. Orders of magnitude so. In the US, the number of people who even realize shamanism is still a thing and wasn't wiped out during the Indian Wars of the 19th century are actually statistically slim.

Medicine may be better in places like the UK and other progressive European nations, but Big Pharma is the same worldwide. The companies are not restricted to the US, but are often based in Europe in Pharma towns like Basel. These companies have shown little or no respect for human life, and instead of doing what is best to treat and cure diseases, have been proven time and time again to place profit over doing the right thing. They haven't really cured anything in decades. The new model is to treat symptoms (often poorly) and get people hooked on expensive drugs that they wind up taking indefinitely... only switching to another such drug when the old one becomes incredibly toxic, goes out of patent, or is taken off the market.

If you don't believe me, even a cursory amount of research will show you what I mean. One example is Phen-Fen. They knew full well that people would start dying when they prescribed that stuff to everyone who wanted it... and some who didn't. Sadly, the common image of the altruistic physician trying to hold up the Hippocratic oath is not mirrored in the coldly profit-driven businessmen who actually control our medicine. Furthermore, they are not even subject to malpractice suits and nearly never suffer any repercussions when they cause widespread death and suffering.

It was suggested that shaman get away with more than western medical practitioners... In my experience, people tend to run bad shaman out of town far more often than you see people who admit to fudging clinical trial results even receive a fine... let alone go to jail.

And as I said earlier, these two modalities are not the only (or even best) games in town. I find that eliminating stress, a skilled acupuncturist, a regimine of detoxing, lengthy massage sessions, and some good old wellness spa days are far more effective for me than either.

Each system has its flukes, but also merits.

I'm all very much in for nature wise, but my renal colic pain attack was only addressable with modern western approach at that particular time. I had to embrace and thank big pharma and the whole pending Porsche driving price over rating medical cult who live in big houses, but they simply fixed it pharma/hardware wise very effectively.

I understand a better nature life pattern might have prevented the renal colic to form in the first place, but it was too late.
If you break a leg, who are you going to choose? Rattle or knife specialist?
For many things I choose the trusted shaman for sure, or in conjunction with other approaches, I see it all very complimentary, not so much this or that.

"So I know quite well the depths of Western Psychology. This lead me to loathe it & seek alternatives."

Sorry, I still keep seeing this in the present tense, despite what you wrote next. No combative attitude at all from my part, no reason to take a response as "combative", or "jumping at you". No such intention there.

EDIT: SKA, Nathanial made the point that I wanted to in response to your post, much more elegantly. Apologies if mine was not clear.

The problem here is that most of the anti-Western medicine camp appears to be confusing 'Western' with 'American.'

This is a fallacy.

The American medical establishment is incredibly flawed because it is run as a for-profit institution where the primary goal is to make as much money as possible instead of trying to help people. I believe very strongly that the horror stories people are relating here are the result of the get-money-from-as-many-patients-as-possible-with-the-lowest-possible-overhead mentality.
And of course, the longer someone is taking an anti-psychotic, and SSRI, a benzo, or even an antibiotic, the more money the pharmaceutical companies make.

This is a problem with America, not the medicine or the scientific establishment itself. This community, or all communities, should understand the inherent difference between an inanimate object or process and the intent with which those objects and processes are put to use.

Blessings
~ND

(Full disclosure: I am, in most respects and free-market-loving libertarian and an advocate for personal responsibility and individual liberty. The medical industry, the financial sector, and the environment are the three places that I stray from that)

The difference is, that there is a hegemony of biomedical practice and most people EXPECT western style medicine to work. It's scientific, right? No, it is not. Western medical practice is Science BASED. And while it does work in some instances, it has shortcomings most people do not expect. Most common folks would not be surprised to be cured by M.Ds, at least not in our cultures.

Exactly like I said: You didn't read any more than just that and rip it out of context.

I said I once came to loathe Western Science, but have SINCE recovered from this
biass and was actually warning other people, with this very biass, to recover from it too.


I'm going to retreat from the Nexus for a while. All these rebels without a cause tire me.

^ In my last response, there is "sorry", "apologies", and "no such intentions". We all make mistakes. Judging from your attitude, a break may indeed be worthwhile.

I also think that "You're throwing everything in the same pot" hardly constitutes a "rebellious" behaviour, just a flawed observation on my part.

Good luck.

a real one would recognize it humbly...

Totally agree. I am starting to realise that it is not that shamans claim to know everything. As always, in all aspects of social life, urban or rural, it is the middle-men/media that cultivate beliefs that one approach over another possesses more valuable "expertise" on a given subject; and as critical thinking is slowly degrading we tend to base our knowledge on such sources, and not the origin itself.

I recently spent some time in india where i visited various ayurvedic clinics, both for issues like stomach problems and general sickness but also for a long term back issue i have.


The responses i got was very mixed, but most of these "doctors" just wanted to sell me expensive rejuvination packages and alot of crap i didnt ask for.

I can guess that ayahuasca tourism has become something similar in south america where a fine tradition has been ruined by greed.



Anyway i did find a few doctors that were very honest and treated me with respect instead of a walking wallet, they also treated my problems with good herbal medicines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmxL8VYy0M

not sure if relevant...

i sit on the fence with this one, seeing & feeling value from both forms of healing.

it also, i think, largely depends on the personal intention of the person who is healing/perscribing in any way at all..

He who thinks he has to choose between two opposites is missing the third option (the one who unites the opposites).

I'll take the best of both worlds.

""it also, i think, largely depends on the personal intention of the person who is healing/perscribing in any way at all.."" -

I agree with this.. What a good thread. Many valid points..
I have no experience with a shaman, and in my younger days, was definitely one of those who romanticized the idea of one. Now a days, I feel like Shamans have done great wonders in advancing our understanding of herbal medicines, but our modern science can take it even further! -
I was discussing this very thing with friends the other day.. A combination of both sects of knowledge would be the most beneficial healing practice.
I have heard much about shamans turning people away, sending them to western practitioners when their sickness is not within the expertise of the shaman. Never have I heard of a doctor prescribing a shamanic retreat!! haha.. Actually I did hear of this happening in Vancouver's east side, but the doctorvin charge of organizing the retreats was threatened and told he'd lose his licence if he continued.

I think a good shaman will be the first to admit that they can not heal everything, and do not know everything.
Many doctors I have met and had experience with are not so modest. - Just an observation.

I read yesterday that death rates for overdose on prescription drugs (in the US, last year) surpassed car fatalities for the first time.. It's getting very out of control. It does seem to me like there is an issue with the "healers" intentions.
On the flip side, I've heard of crock Aya ceremonies, where people come out of the experience more messed up and traumatized than before!!

I saw a doctor out here in Canada, for chronic back pain and I wasn't even done telling him my symptoms before he was writing me prescriptions for opiate based pain killers.. Dangerous stuff!! I've been working with some herbs, incense and smoking mixtures, to much success. I have my bad days, but am very happy to not be an addict/ slave to pills. I think some critical thinking is necessary when dealing with western medicines. Do some research before you try anything. The same as you would with etheogenic experimentation.

My sister deals with anxiety. She gets bad panic attacks. They put her on some form of sertraline, and now she's very shell like. Not as lively and emotionless at times. Also, she's been warned that if one stops taking it, the withdrawals can be compared with that of heroin. Of course they told her that after having her on it for a while.. This is a terrible practice in my opinion. And something that forces dependancy is not healing you at all..
( I do agree with the Traveler here, that in some cases a dependancy would be better than nothing. However, not until other possibilities have at least been explored)
That being said, I've known of many success stories with western medicines, and every person's case is different. But like stated above, it really comes down to the intention of the practitioner.

Man, that one pisses me off when I see it. My daughter has a gluten intolerance. It isn't a philosophical choice, it's more like headache, projectile vomiting, major stomach issues, etc etc when wheat products are consumed.
For a long time this was alright because "gluten free" was a REALLY serious thing when we explained it, while getting food. Sadly now that it is a "fad" for many, we get a lot of stuff that people are like "oh yeah, sure it is gluten free, whatever"

Otherwise regarding this whole thread...
Ryusaki nailed it.
If you are choosing one thing blindly over another, you are missing out. Like anything in life, educate yourself to every possibility and make the most informed decision for yourself.