Whether you drink alone, in a group, in ceremony, or not... they are all just experiences. Each kind is valuable in its own way. It's been said a few times, "it's not the same!" That's true. It doesn't mean one way is inherently better or worse though - that's a personal judgement.

Silly(c)one- i know. Obviously i didn't mean to imply that the only way to drink with others is in peru.. (theres always brazil!...jk jk)

I just wanted to point out that i never said either solo or in groups was better. They're different things and its a subjective opinion

..the topic is 'value of shaman guide with aya..'

the value of a Curandero is to heal you mentally/physically when you can't do it on your own, and friends can't help you..to help you when you are sick..when you don't know why you are sick..

their work is not about setting up a nice tripping space..that's not that difficult..
.

Second that. To set up the space, a master of ceremony is enough, anyone can be his own MC.
Where the shaman shines, is to guide you while on the other side... And that needs practice.
I believe that in order to guide others, you first have to be guided yourself.

That's what shamanic tradition is for IMHO.
Thousands of years of experience can't be learned on one's own, just like you can't learn maths without a teacher (a book is ok, but shamanism can't be expressed by words, only felt through experience.

The value of the shamen is quite high. Evidence of this is displayed by the sales of the single, 'ebeneezer good'!

Interesting. Do you mean the shaman guides you inside the trip or more about offering comfort/babysitting to you from the outside -- ie "you are ok... let go... you are safe" etc?

I know very little of amazon or other aya/oral ceremonies, beyond a couple youtube videos and misc forum posts -- Which is really why I created the thread. I am especially curious about first hand reports from those who have participated in ceremonies. Questions like:

- What country
- Retreat name if willing to give a direct reference
- Shaman type (maybe specific tribe/tradition they folow?)
- # people in the ceremony
- Roles of non tripping people (some seem to have shaman and other 'healers' or caretakers)
- Specific things shaman or others did to help you with the experience
- Any person healing stories (ie goal of participation in the ceremony and result)
- was music used? If so what kind (ie drums, singing, etc.

Yes, the shaman guides you inside the trip.
He connects with you through the Source, plays drums to ground you, uses the chacapa (shakers work too) to elevate you and then sings or play the flute to make you go where he wants you to go based on your intentions (stated before drinking the sacrament, being mushrooms, ayahuasca or cactus).
That's why I believe it's easier if you can find a real shaman who speaks your native language and knows your culture.
In my country (Belgium), there are no week retreats, but it's more and more common to find groups who drink Ayahuasca on week-ends... But it's harder to find a real shaman in those groups...

They're just 2 different animals IMO. One neither better or worse just very different. I feel drinking solo takes a lot of courage and maybe experience and comfort with highly altered states.

I've wrote a lot about working with healers in traditional setting as well as working at home. They both have benefits. Its just what a person prefers or feels comfortable with. I like both for different reasons.

I know only one thing about ayahuasca, I wouldn't judge anyone either way for how they choose to use this medicine/substance.

Thanks for the input. I have had 5 solo aya (mimosa/rue tea) trips and while none have been very gentle, all have been of great value to me. That said, I do still feel a bit out of my depth to push further -- hence the curiosity of what shamans in general and even specific tribes/types have to offer.

If I do end up going to a retreat, I'll be sure to post back here my 2 cents to their specific ceremonies and what I get out of it.

You seem to the one getting defensive becasue I asked you a question based on you claim about driking without a currandero sucking. You do this alot..you get seem to project in threads, then get defensive when people question you and then you respond to people like a jerk with strange remarks that dont even make sense half the time.

What the hell does it matter whether or not I have drunk ayahuasca is peru? I never claimed anything about drinking in peru sucking, because I would have no real world experience to back up any such claims. You made a claim about something you never experienced, and I asked you a question..thats all..then you responded like an idiot.

Instead of even really adressing any real questions you just resort to fallacious attacks avoiding any real dialoge. Good luck with that. I am basically finished reading your posts in this forum at this point.

Jamie,

You've got one hell of an argumentative attitude it seems. You seem to take every word of mine far too seriously, and pick at what i say as if you're looking for the opportunity for an argument. I have noticed this on almost all the posts you have responded to of mine, on this forum, and the other one where you use your old name.

If anyones 'wierd', its not me.

Best think i can say, is please do not respond anymore to my posts, cos all you do is argue. I really have no more wish to communicate with you whatsoever.

Nobody's judging anyone, just expressing their opinions based on forum questions. It's a well known fact that when you take the medicine the only person judging you is yourself. To say it's others, would be a gross way of avoiding personal responsability. However you choose to use the medicine rests in your own hands, it's your life, your path, your responsability, and you alone as a mature adult must hold yourself responsible for your actions, not he said- she said, or 'x' substance.

Let's not forget that this is nothing more than an internet rescource, take from it what you wish, but it's just the views of many a people, nothing more. It's ultimately YOUR responsability to make your own decisions.

should i add anything or just laught it up

anyways i'll get to the point of this thread rather than adding more to the goodness that is going on these days , thank you people

now coming back to the point of this post , well from personal experience not really with a shaman yet tripping many a times with people and alone , i can say tripping alone is a big step and not really for everyone

its dangerous , because you're alone and nobody is there to take care of you if something goes wrong , however if you find that the friends you have are adding to your woes and making you miserable than decide whats best for you

i don't like tripping with people anymore , i've tripped much with company , maybe sometime i will , however if i can give you some advice on tripping with people

never trip with just one person thats the worst , tripping with two other persons is better , however i recommend atleast 3 other people except yourself always , even better is tripping with hundreds of people in parties if you're comfortable with psychadelics , i am talking about Ayahuasca , LSD , Mushrooms here

for deeper work trip alone

when smoking DMT , i've found being alone to be awesome and the only thing possible for me as i feel very strongly about being alone when i experience DMT

tripping alone has a deeper psychological aspect to it , i will not go into details of that here now , i'll say its about having greater responsibility to yourself , your mind and body as opposed to sharing that responsibility with a group of peers or maybe an elder like a Shaman

its good if you're an Artist or musican or someone who has to work alone on their paths , otherwise i really see no point in tripping alone and thinking your brains out , for training in Artwork and music under these states is a brilliant , same goes for Scientists ,Shamans and all the other fields of work with require much solitude

Hi Jin. Thanks for the input. I agree having a sitter does add to the safety -- if even only in one's ability to relax more knowing someone is monitoring you. I have had trips w/ and w/o a sitter, but only ever with a single sitter and no one tripping with me. My sitter knows less about dmt/aya than I do so they are a far cry from a 'shaman'.

My hope in creating the thread was to get personal experiences and opinions about shamans leading an experience vs leading yourself with oral dmt/aya. Per the early discussion in this thread, I understand how wide the definitions are for 'shaman' here. For the sake of the discussion let's allow a wide definition to be anyone who leads another's use of oral dmt/aya from a place of experience with the substance. Some have mentioned drumming, chanting, guiding within the trip itself, healing, etc as added skills for a shaman.

Has anyone here started with dmt and/or aya alone (w or without sitter) and then joined a shaman lead ceremony with an aya variant? Or the other way around -- joined aya ceremonies then continued use of aya alone? I would be curious to hear from those that have explored aya from both angles to compare and contrast what they gained from each.

As olympus mon wrote, I also believe aya "wouldn't judge anyone either way for how they choose to use this medicine/substance". I am curious though from those who have experienced both -- did either way help them more effectively achieve their goals with the medicine (be it personal growth/healing/or just a fun trip)?

To try and respond directly to some of your questions - I started out doing my own brewing (fairly extensive), and have one experience in a fairly traditional Ayahuasca session, facilitated by a traveling maestro.


Canada

The Maestro was of Mestizo heritage, and had worked extensively with Peruvian Ayahuasca traditions from Mestizo, Quechua and Shipibo lineages.

There were about 15 people in the ceremony. One western lady was acting as his assistant. Everyone ingested the brew. The Maestro requested the participants to not talk, or touch each other.

The ceremony was held as night fell, in a round yurt in a rural area, under conditions of darkness. As the brew took effect, the Maestro used a drum, one of those shaker things, and sang Icaros. Some participants he called up, either to give them more Ayahuasca, perform some kind of extra healing/song on them, or just to check in about how their journey was going. Before the ceremony started, everyone was asked to state their name and their reason for coming (or if there was some special healing they hoped for, they could ask for it at that time). He also smoked Mapacho tobacco during the ceremony, and used the smoke to smudge both the brew and participants before they drank.

I was mostly going into the ceremony just to experience the difference between a home brew taken alone, and a more traditional session with a shaman/curandero/maestro, plus to reaquaint myself with DMT in a gentler plant-based brew, after a rough trip from smoking DMT a couple years before that had left me fairly traumatized.

I enjoyed hearing the Icaros during the ceremony, and to have a first-hand understanding of a facilitated session, since many people say it's the "real deal" and that drinking/brewing on your own just isn't the same, or that they would never consider taking Ayahuasca without a shaman. Although, I bet drinking the brew in the jungle is something else again!

For me personally, after the session I decided that I feel more comfortable doing the brewing and preparation myself. I enjoyed the cultural aspect of drinking with a Maestro, but I found the presence of other people distracted me from fully engaging with the brew. I also found the brew we drank to be very heavy on the caapi, and light on chacruna. I had harmala intoxication so bad that even hours after drinking, when other people were going to sleep and the Maestro had stopped singing, I could barely stumble my way to the door to go visit the outhouse. I would have been happy to do the brewing myself, because then I could choose exactly which plants and the ratios in which to combine them.

Exactly the sort of input I am looking for, Thanks. There seems to be a wide range of potency / mixture between different trip reports from those who take part in ceremonies. The dose must have been pretty low to be able to call people up to check on them or give them more. Several of my mimosa/rue teas, reality fully vanished. I wouldn't be able to tell if someone talked to me much less respond -- I've lost the concept of I and 100% of open eye reality.

Anyone else have solo exploration vs shaman lead ceremony they can share?

"I had harmala intoxication so bad that even hours after drinking, when other people were going to sleep and the Maestro had stopped singing, I could barely stumble my way to the door to go visit the outhouse."

I also dislike that feeling..I have had very vine heavy brews that went upwards of 12 hours a few times..you can get into some incredible visionary states but for me I am so sick that I cant pay attention to or enjoy any of it..I end up feeling like I was poisoned and feel really worn out the next day.

I worked with DMT and ayahausca alone for many years before I went to Peru the first time. These were life changing and forming years.

However for me, working with the healers in Peru for close to 3 months was vastly the most healing I have ever received or achieved.

I think this is for 2 reasons, 1 the healers icaro's and 2 I felt very safe and would drink large amounts allowing me to go further than ever before. So like I said its all about the medicine rather than tradition vs. non IMO.

Christian- So you know that comment wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. It was a general statement.

In my case, my one and only time doing ayahuasca with a shaman and 40 other people, I am understanding that the music they play with the drums and harmonics just won't let you concentrate or go deeper In the hyperspace. The sing and play for lets say 15 minutes or so and then theres a 1 minute silence! And it is in this 1minute silence where you go deeper...
I have been trying to understand this, because I just planted my first psycotria viridis and planning some extractions in the future.

High nen888!

I totally agree with your post.



Yes, the main difference being that the shaman has learned to control / react / demand respectfully the entities being met in the spirit realm while the schizophrenic becomes controlled / reacted / demanded by the entities instead.
Also a shaman developed methods to verify the data received from the spirit realm while the schizo just does by choice.