But we're not talking about magic, or anything arbitrary...who is it that recognizes that thought process as "I am thinking"?

Man, did anyone take the time to watch that link I posted above?
I'm not trying to say the things discussed in it are 100% he truth, but it will at least open your mind to the difference between the layers of thoughts & consciousness.
And what gibran2 & I are trying to get at.


WS

I'm watching it right now

What I was trying to say that I don't believe that our consciousness can exist without the body. It may be able to project itself outside the body, but this simply an illusion, a simulation created by the mind.

I thought the video was quite good. Like you said, it is not 100% truth, but many good thoughts are discussed.

The laughing and clapping was a bit much at times though....what an obnoxious audience.

The paradigm favoring the primacy of consciousness is not “arbitrary magic”. One might even say that there is more evidence for the primacy of consciousness than there is for the primacy of matter – the existence of your consciousness is self-evident, whereas the existence of matter is not.

You posit the existence of an eternal spirit, and when unable to imagine what an eternal spirit is like, what it does, and why it does it, you conclude that such a construct is not possible, or at least extremely unlikely.

Keep in mind the consequence of accepting the primacy of matter: Matter creates consciousness. As I’ve pointed out before, if this is the case, then we must accept that any sort of matter when properly configured will either possess consciousness or “simulate” consciousness.

I venture to say it's quite the other way around!

WS

I kinda liked that a room full of scientists & physicists were getting a bit excited about a new perspective.

I think the stuff on the properties of light & looking at space-time from it's singular moment point of view was quiet interesting & plausible!


WS

Well, I include equally unplausable with unknowlable. Especially after having dmt experiences and experiencing both.

To answer the question "which seems more plausible: Consciousness creating the illusion of a material world, or objects in a material world – a properly configured collection of copper pipes, pumps, and various valves – producing consciousness?"

It seems like the same thing. The material world is an illusion of personal consciousness. There is no material world to perceive without personal consciousness. And without a material world, there would be nothing for personal consciousness to look at. It's all one phenomenon.

Did a couple of my posts just disappear? That’s strange. Hmm…

With all this talk about reality, how can I be sure I ever posted them in the first place?


Edit: Never mind – found them on the previous page. Doh!

I believe that consciousness exists independently of the ego, whose limits are very much described by the mind and the body.
Think of it as colored glass surrounding a mysterious light source, your 'I', you couldn't perceive the actual nature of the light unless you removed the glass you were looking through :0
And even then, there seem to be more and more layers of this glass no matter how many you peeled away
In fact, you seem to recall that the glass itself is made of light...

edit: lol i just started watching that documentary, i feel so used

@WSaged
The existence of an underlying consciousness (in the sense of light that Russel proposes) is something I don't have anything against. Its more the idea of our own personal identities (minds) being separate from our physical bodies that I tend disagree with. Like michaell said in his original post, so many physical factors can change who we are, I don't how that can be separate from our bodies.

But when it comes to an underlying and unifying consciousness that simply acts as the projector of our minds, without itself possessing a particular kind of mind, I have no argument against it.

My argument is with the belief that our personal minds are separate from our bodies. I just think this is another attempt by humans to circumvent their fear of death.

The argument that people “invent” ideas supporting the primacy of consciousness to assuage their fear of death has no basis.

It’s no stronger an argument than to say that those who don’t believe in the primacy of consciousness are disbelieving in an attempt to circumvent their fear of ghosts. (or spirits, or immaterial beings, or existence without end, etc.)

You fail to recognize that believing in the primacy of matter is just that – a belief. There is no proof or evidence that the primacy of matter is the “correct” paradigm.

Consciousness and self-identity/ego are not the same thing. Your self-identity, ego, memories, etc. seem to be products of the brain/body. This doesn’t rule out the possibility that the “underlying and unifying consciousness” doesn’t have “awareness” of the bodily-based self.

(It will be interesting to see if your views change post-DMT breakthrough. )

This is what I was trying to say: I don't see anything wrong with the idea of the underlying consciousness (though I haven't been convinced of it), but with the idea of the "self-identity, ego, memories, etc." surviving without the body. I base my reasoning on the implied motivations behind each idea: the people who believe that their self-identity will exist forever seem to me to be just afraid of death and loss of their own identity, while the idea that we are all part of an universal consciousness doesn't seem to imply this selfish fear, instead it promotes harmony and a feeling of unity with the rest of the universe.



Indeed it will be

I think this just semantics, your seem to be explaining the same thing as we are...just with more words...
I don't think anyone said anything about this singular identity going past physical death, just the one experiencing it at the core.


Underlying consciousness without restraints of physical body = Universal Consciousness!


WS

I can't help but jump in and agree with gibran. I think of consciousness as my awareness at a cross-section of time (what I can see, smell, hear, feel, and taste at time t), but my identity is more abstract. The best way for me to express it is by saying consciousness is a thalamus thing and identity is a parietal lobe thing. Your parietal lobe connects many ideas and neurons together and helps you piece together your idea of who or what you are. This part of your brain can be temporarily disrupted while your thalamus keeps right on streaming data from your sensory organs to your cortices. Suddenly you aren't searching for the same patterns that you have been classically conditioned to detect and are free to... do... well... I haven't had a massive breakthrough yet so I don't know exactly what you are free to do when that happens.

WS, love the meat car!!

We are all just receivers, doing our best to tune into the same great thing... the same thing, experiencing itself through a zillion perspectives endlessly...

IMHO, the brain is your tool for tuning in to this one great force. Nourish and respect your brain (exercise, neuroprotective diet, and, yes, feed it lots of spirit molecules )... and you might be utterly shocked by how much clearer the signal can become.

Thanks!!

Just polished it up with a fresh coat of bacon grease!!!




WS