Fasting definitely brings tranquility and clarity to the mind.

I remember reading an article about scientists putting people who were on LSD into an FMRI. One of the scientists said the closest analog was a baby brain. I can't find the article I read, but they mentioned the openness, awe and wonder, but also said something about how opening all of the filters seemed to quiet the brain in unexpected ways.

Also: Although I find the after effects to be too unpleasant to work with salvia daily, I have had the same experience of quiet mind using low doses of plain leaf, after developing a bit of reverse tolerance. I wish salvia didn't make me feel like I was semi wired and on the verge of a headache for the rest of the day. I've never used it at night. Does your low dose work interfere with sleep?

No, it doesn't. I use a local salvinorin a containing sage species together with rue and other plants in a ceremonial context. I don't use it by itself or for daily meditation purposes. It gives a very strong and distinct silencing of the mind aspect to the rue + DMT experience, and the afterglow is distinctly grounded and clear headed (and connected and with higher well being). But in the past I had come across some literature of using divinorum purely as a meditation aid. I don't know if I can find it now.

I find low dose 5-MeO-DMT to be the most beneficial in aiding meditation. More than salvia.

How low are we talking? I'm still too chicken to try mine

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Agreed. The transformative practice is learning to silence the mind while sober and living our daily lives. Psychedelics can provide a glimpse into what it feels like to have a quiet mind, but ultimately they're a crutch.

I also don't formally meditate anymore. Preferring instead to notice whenever the self-talk cranks up and taking a deep conscious breath to stop the chatter and refocus on the present moment. I end up taking many deep breaths throughout the day.

It was through smoking weed 10+ years ago that I first experienced what it felt like to be present. The aha moment of noticing the voices were finally silent and only the present moment existed. Of course weed has the opposite effect too, and unfortunately the chattering mind is usually the dominant condition.

For my own clarification in exploring my own situation and practice, I'd like to pose a couple questions.

Given the wide array of methods and goals and intents for mediation, isn't this sort of subjective? Some of my meditations are purposefully contemplative.

I also meditate sober, or with a range of different substances from hape to harmalas, to cannabis, to a mix of them. For me, they're more supplements than crutches. An analogy I'd like to give is with regard to weight lifting. Using gear (belt, knee wraps, etc) can be helpful in helping one get used to moving certain weights, but when used all the time becomes a crutch. I lift raw always. However, I do use and cycle supplements, such as pre-workout, creatine, etc. I see that as supplementation towards a goal and not at all a crutch. So could it be said that using substances to understand certain meditative states and spaces is a crutch if it feels necessary to use each and every time, and a supplement if used on occassion?

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For me there are different types of meditation. One type being to make silence and maintain it and another being contemplation while articulating my intentions to myself. The silent kind is important because I want control over whether or not my mind will think or ramble. If I were to like take ativan or xanax and then claim I've achieved silent meditation that would totally be a crutch and a lie. But when I meditate on mushrooms or ayahuasca I don't see it as a crutch because I gain momentum that carries on into the days to follow and gets incorporated into my life. I learn from it and carry on with what's learned, accumulating skills I need. Never would I gain a skill because a benzodiazepine helped me hush my mind. But choosing more or less thought while on psychedelics requires my effort.

This probably is true, yet the 'shooting down thoughts' happened actually by automation during a trip, as if I was detecting that I simply could not hold on for a thought for few secs and it fleeted away, thinking 'damn I was just thinking of something and now I suddenly lost it, like sand trough fingers'. I wasn't searching for it, there was no intention in that direction initially.

Next thought arises... damn this is going also, I lost track of my thoughts, like extreme short memory fails. Then realizing that these thoughts were actually disturbances and it was a bliss to get rid of them after all by automation. This then ended in no thoughts coming up as they seem to fail anyway. They presto, I come in a sphere of no thoughts, hmmm, this is interesting, lets do this sh*t (sorry, an artistic fart expression)
So that zen was just happening and it led to the discovery of it.

This led to the discovering of the "ability to not-cling-onto-thoughts" , a potential I later could induce on purpose, in trip. Like, hey lets shoot down the thoughts again... yep it works, great.

Only later to bring some of that ability into the daily life, bringing it back when you're back. Harvesting stuff in trip, the difference between me-being and me participating in thought practices. This distinction.

Extra advantage in trip: detecting that my fear needs a conceptual structure to exist, it needs a frame (of thoughts) to make sense. To take out thoughts is take away the hummus of fear, of identity, of heaviness, ....
This also bring some of that into daily life.

This is just a personal record, each has it's own ways, inevitably.

Yes, I agree it is 100% subjective. Everyone finds their own way, their own practices that work for them. And we're all at different places on our journeys. For example, smoking weed helped me to know what presence felt like, but now it holds me back. I needed the weed, until I didn't. I quit cold-turkey 6+ years ago (along with porn), and that's worked out for me.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm sharing what is currently working for me after 20+ years of spiritual practice, meditation, psychedelics, etc. And I'm sure my path isn't right for everyone.


I don't mean to say meditation is not useful, or to say that some assistance is not useful. Again, it depends on where we are on our journeys. I debated whether to add that caveat in my prior post, thinking perhaps I should clarify. I have done a lot of meditation, sober and with mushrooms. I find my mind is more quiet if I make it quiet, in the moment, whenever I notice it's noisy. That was my primary purpose for meditation, and I found a practice that appears to work better for me. In the context of this thread, DMT silences the mind. However, I believe the implication is a desire for enduring silence, and in that case we eventually want to learn how to silence the mind without DMT.

I like your example with lifting weights. I used to lift with assistance and supplements. Now I lift raw - no straps, wraps, belt, etc. Until 8 months ago I used about 15 different supplements. After a transformative experience in the mountains, I dropped all the supplements and I think I'm fine. Perhaps stronger? I want to deadlift without shoes but I suffered from plantar fasciitis years ago, so I'm taking it slow. The shoes provide temporary support. Eventually I won't need them. Perhaps it's the same with my occasional use of psychedelics - they are/were temporary until I don't need them anymore.

The main itch that I get from using external substances is that you are depending on someting, well, external.
Not saying there is anything wrong with that, psychedelics introduced me to myself.

Would I have found myself anyways? Sure.
Was it the most imporant experience of my life and made the process that much quicker? That too.

For all I know this is a very necessary part of everyones journey, using external tools that its, and probably just a choice like any other, whatever serves at each moment.
What doesnt serve anymore falls away like leaves in autumn, if there is someting present in our lifes, it has some purpose.

Personally, I am just at a point were I feel like if I need to be happy, silent, or whatever, might as well try to find that within, because I know it to be possible, even if its harder.
This is just a personal thing, I just dont find psychedelics that useful anymore.
We also depend on others for survival, growth, even joy, and thats okay.

Im pretty sure this will depend on where you are in your journey, if you feel like it serves you, Id trust that.

Could you guys smell the blood in the water, and by blood I mean my slight self-flagellation?

Thank you both. Ss, we've spoken in length about a lot of things, and shroombee I happen to like the way you think and enjoy picking your brain when you're around.

Now, for me to go back to work

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You mean how your mind was ready to beat itself up for not being good enough, not spiritual enough, and that you should be able to deal with things on your own?

Thats kinda what I smelled, but its hard to tell.
Either way, whatever kind of self-flagellation is going on, its good that you are starting to notice it.

Hahaha a little something like that. Felt like I cut it short pretty quick and pretty well though.

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I'm always around, checking the Nexus daily since 2020 and reading all the posts. I like my silence though.

And I didn't see any self-flagellation. More of a healthy curiosity and providing a balance of perspectives. A reminder for me there are no absolutes that work for everyone.

That's good for me to know. Thank you

And thank you very much. I tend to wonder if I get be a bit too detail oriented or incisive, and if it's a bit much for others.

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This is a very interesting thread, thanks to everyone contributing.
I tend to think about this very topic pretty frequently, and feel very identified with some of what Voidmatrix said.

When I do psychedelics and meditate, I feel like I can go further than what I can do on a sober mind. However, I tend to self-flagelate too by wondering if I'm using them as a supplement or crutch.

When on the psychedelic state, I am SURE that it's helping me quiet my mind, and often promise to myself to do it more often, I feel like I'm giving myself a treat. However, as soon as this state goes away, maybe in the next couple of days, I start to wonder If I should do it again, and then punish myself for even thinking about it, something along the lines of "You don't need more drugs, you fucking yunkie".

I would like to not feel guilty about using them. I believe the guilt I'm feeling is more of a social construct than my own awareness telling myself to be safe and responsible. I do believe I'm acting in a safe way, I trust myself. But somehow there's always this constant guilt about blasting off consensual reality: "Am I doing it for fun? / Am I being responsible? / What if this goes wrong? / What if I end up needing it? / Am I trying to fool myself?"

I liked the example abecedarian used in post #28 . "Gaining momentum" is a nice way to think about it.

Try 1-2mg vaporised

I don't even think my scale will register that low

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