I was trying to explain to a person about confronting evil and negativity with love, and this person said "why so you can make them feel bad?"...

At the time I rambled out some nonsense, trying to keep the conversation friendly and not offend ,

But thought "NO! It's because love and positivity are the true vehicles for conscious being!

Thewicked will test you any way they can, they will provoke you at every opportunity, and by relinquishing your commitments to love and positivity in an effort to "get even" or "seek revenge" or to "defend your ego" would be a rejection of the spiritual truths you know.

What is wrong with this person? Are people so disconnected that they can only think in terms of the negative...

I was trying to explain by example that when the hippies were putting flowers in the barrels of guns in the name of love the dominators were confounded, but when the hippies started bombing buildings and becoming a military type force the dominators understood this...because it was them, the hippies ceased to be those enacted with promoting peace and love at all costs, and became an enemy the dominators knew, an enemy that functions just like they do...

Now, I don't care about making the dominators "feel bad", I just want to promote peace and love at all costs...because I know in my heart that this is what's right, that the true treasures of life are not gained by the path of the negative...

Any way, regardless of of it makes the dominators feel, I'm praying for their happiness, if all beings were happy the negative wouldn't be able to deceive them, God wants all beings to be happy, and by promoting negativity even against those who want to be your enemy, and who will harass you, provoke you, slanderize you, you are leaving the true path of peace, love, happiness, and ultimately God.

Even Christ was not safe from the Romans...so they will come after you even if your a moral person who has done nothing wrong, it's how you handle it determines your spirituality and your commitment to all that is good.

-eg

i think being nice to people is important, but im not sure it can always be the way.

taking the idea to an extreme, we currently have a bunch of nutjobs running around burning people alive, stoning people to death, throwing folk off buildings for being gay, raping children and countless other horrific acts.

do you think we can counter a group like ISIS by putting flowers in their guns?

how do we counter a group like this with friendly means?

if we cant counteract this type of situation with kindness, which i dont think we can, then at what point do you think it becomes acceptable or necessary to use negative means to solve a problem?

The answer is yes!

We confront Isis with love and understanding!

Isis feels they have a moral high ground because they feel they have been victimized by the first world in some way...

Now when the first world starts dropping bombs, and banning Muslims, and waging wars, they are behaving just as Isis predicted, thus backing their perceived moral high ground, how long do you think they could murder those who have shown them nothing but compassion and empathy? Would the hardened extremists even be able to recruit if the United states was a benevolent brother? Their propaganda would be seen as the garbage it is...

This goes back to my hippie example....they were winning! They had exposed themselves as promoters of love in all cases, promoters of what's good and what's right, and the dominators as the promoters of war and let the people choose who was on the right side...now ,when the hippies started bombing buildings, as the militant SDS and weather underground did, they said "look they are just as corrupt as we are and they use our same tactic, thus furthering the support for the dominators who are on shakey moral standings to begin with...

If all beings were happy and acted purely out of love we would have no war, no Isis, no conflicts amongst our brother man...

If we were all brothers, and a war broke out, and you murdered your brother, and then had to find your mother (God) crying over his dead body, and then had to explain to your crying mother why you killed your brother....what would you say? Would the issues that lead to the war be relevant in that moment...

I'm not just spouting rhetoric, it hurts me to see my brother/sister humans treating each other this way, it hurts God...what ever your notion of god may be.

We are in the Kali yuga...We also exist in a union of opposites, to have positive you must have negative, but we are at a point where one is seeking to over-ride and destroy the other...positive on at a chaotic and fluxating roller-coaster, we must learn to limit the negative to its minimum and restore the balance between the two...

If we don't it will be our demise, materialism leads to resource depleation, greed leads to others being deprived, revenge only worsens the situation for you and your enemies...

This justification that we must become just as ugly and evil as Isis or who ever the spot-light enemy of the time is, is a path to becoming the evil we are claiming to fight ...

Only love will save us, all we need is love and compassion...humbleness and sacrifice for your brother rather than violence, hate, greed, materialism, selfishness, and an "every man for himself, dog eat dog" run existance is the way, it's that simple...

Wish for yourself to be happy, but truely happy, not derived from material objects or ego or attatchment, and wish for your brother Nan of all places races and culture to be happy, be humble, just and compassionate...

And DON'T EVER give way to justifications which reduce you to the evil you seek to destroy....you don't fight a fire by pouring fuel and mire fire on it, you fight it with water, with its opposite...you don't fight hate with hate, you confront evil, hate, and negativity with love.

All you need is love for yourself and your brother...

Ok, I'm losing the inspiration and emotion that induced this rant, so I'll cut it short, but the important was repeated several times.

-eg

Oh come on, dude...

Are you serious?

they are murdering and raping children, children, from there own part of the world who have never done anything to harm anyone. these children have done nothing and are being raped and abused by ISIS, so yes, i absolutey believe that they will happily murder, rape and pillage everyone and everything they can until they have achieved there goal.

ISIS are not just against their western oppressors, they are out for anyone who doesnt agree with their disturbing religeous leaning.

if we apply your non violence policy to an ideal world then yes im sure it is the correct way to go.
but we do not live i a perfect world and the attrocities commited by all sides wont be forgotten.

lets say we do apply non violence/ non negative tactics from today. All western miltary presence is removed and we leave them alone. Do you think that would stop them doing what they are doing? If there grievance was only with western oppression why would they be killing, raping and enslaving large numbers of there own countrymen and neighbours?

i dont think they would stop if we removed ourselves from their buisness and never returned, i think they would continue to indiscriminately commit genecide as they moved around the globe. when they come knocking on your door with a desire to remove your head from your body because you have the audacity to send your daughter to school or choose to follow your own idea of religeon/spirituality what then?

We in the west do have alot to answer for with regard to our actions but to blame ISIS solely on the west is insane and dangerous. some people are just horrible and broken and when these people follow dangerous ideologies then thats a recipe for disaster that i dont think can be addressed by being nice.


Im with ya, its aweful that people cant just get along, but they seemingly cant. you say it hurts god that this happens, well i have repeatedly seen the good folk of ISIS claim they are doing gods work. So whose god is right? yours who says their actions are bad or theirs who says crack on boys, your doing a good job. (for the record i think your god is much better)


i personally see quite a large difference between ISIS using muderous tactics to get what they want, which is to make sure everyone lives as they think they should, and us using murderous tactics to protect innocent people who wish to live in peace and freedom.

i have been in 1 fight in my life and that was when i was in school, 20 years later i have not been involved in any violent interactions. Lets say im in the pub, minding my own buisness, and i get attacked by some drunken idiot (which is a common accurance in many pubs in the UK), i dont see how me retaliating to protect myself, by using the only means necessary, violence, is equal to the action taken by my attacker. I dont see how the action of me protecting myself with violence is equal to my attacker using it against me.

i can guarantee you that no matter how many times i have to use violence to protect myself, i will never use violence against innocent people.


again i agree but when people live under ideologies that promote intolerance and abuse then this is just never going to happen, its a fantasy world.


does this not depend on this being returned by all our brothers, if your gay in syria you can be as nice and loving as is humnaly possible but your still getting thrown off a roof. We are not dealing with reasonable rational people we are dealing with savages following a disturbing version of religeous doctorine

I think entheogenic-gnosis makes one grave mistake in his/her thinking and therefore doesn't understand why there is war, conflict, lack of love etc. You see, you falsely assume that humans are good, loving, compassionate and divine beings. In reality, we are overindulgent, greedy, lustful, lazy, hateful, jealous and egoistic beings.

Simultaneously, we are very fond of ourselves and fail to see our own shortcomings, but readily see those in others - hence our angry thoughts "why do others act negatively, and can't be as positive as we are?". However, a honest introspection and self-awareness will readily reveal the darkness which is deeply settled at the core of your own soul.

Just look at the entire history of human civilization - it was, and still is, and will probably always be full of violence, dishonesty, unfairness and war. It's not because of some group of bad guys, but because the humanity is mentally sick in its entirety.

Isis says the same thing about Americans...


Do you see how hate and violence is not the solution here?

-eg

Do you think more hatred and violence will either?

-eg

And using military violence to get what we want is ok?

The situation is far more complicated than your making it out to be, it's not black and white, but trust me humanitarian works in the middle east, helping these people, showing compassion to the people of the middle east, is the solution, love is the solution.

This conflict is not purely humanitarian, it's political, the United states army has other agendas that go beyond helping people living in crisis...Somalia is run by war-lords and the people are living under terrible conditions, why are we not rushing to save these people?


If the United states (and all parties who are not Isis) dedicated their effort purely to humanitarian efforts and peace negotiations the problems would get solved...Isis and their sick corrupted philosophy would wither away under its own absurdity, people would not be willing to join them.

Isis exploits young Arab men who feel they have been victimized by the west in some way...now say an American doing humanitarian aide got to this young man first and did all they could to help him and his family, would he listen when Isis lies to him saying "Americans are evil, they hate you, they can't be reasoned with, the murder and rape children, and so on"?

We are increasing bombing, increasing military action, we have people calling for bans on all Muslims, we are reacting with brutal force and have been since 2001...and yet these groups are only growing...terror attacks are more common than ever.

Hate and violence do not bring peace.

Love is the answer.

-eg

The middle east is an extremely complicated situation.

I never said they were justified in any way, I said "they feel they have been victimized", just listen to their propaganda, they are preying on young Arab men who feel victimized by some aspect of the war in the middle east (and no parties in the conflict are completely free from wrong doing to the other parties, not even the United states), they take these people's legitimate grievances and corrupt it into extremism through lies and propaganda.

And reducing ourselves to being just as violent as the enemy is not a solution. You don't fight a fire by throwing more fire on it, you can't fight hate with more hate, you only deepen and exacerbate the situation.



What if we beat Isis by making it impossible for them to recruit by showing love to the people of the middle east and the Muslim people?

more violence will only bring more violence and it won't ever bring a solution.

-eg

I respectfully disagree, I feel it is you who has made the error in thinking, we are not as you put it but rather a union of opposites, we have the potential to be loving, compassionate, caring, peaceful, positive and happy, or we have the potential to be

And every human must make a personal choice.




There's no darkness in my soul, I'm a peaceful, happy, compassionate person and I always have been, I find humbleness and acting free from ego, attachment, and desire has served me well in my life, for even when negative influences build against you, and they will, even Christ was not safe from the Romans, you must never let them cause you to stumble, you must always stay committed to peace and love.

---

even if people tell and spread overt lies about you, or try to provoke you, or act violently towards you, you must never reduce yourself to becoming as hateful and negative as they are. I pray for their happiness, I pray they too can know happiness, love, and compassion. God knows the truth and the truth will come out, and it will expose the wrongdoing and who the real wrongdoers really are, and when they realize their wrong doing they will still be forgiven.

---

There is war conflict and negativity because nothing exists with out its opposite, you can't have positive without negative...

---

In times of war
Give rise in yourself to the mind of compassion,
Helping living beings
Abandon the will to fight.
-buddha

---

A Vietnam veteran was overheard rebuking the Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, about his unswerving dedication to non-violence.
"You're a fool," said the veteran - "what if someone had wiped out all the Buddhists in the world and you were the last one left. Would you not try to kill the person who was trying to kill you, and in doing so save Buddhism?!"
Thich Nhat Hanh answered patiently "It would be better to let him kill me. If there is any truth to Buddhism and the Dharma it will not disappear from the face of the earth, but will reappear when seekers of truth are ready to rediscover it.
"In killing I would be betraying and abandoning the very teachings I would be seeking to preserve. So it would be better to let him kill me and remain true to the spirit of the Dharma."

-quoted from BBC religion page

---

-eg

hello, entheogenic-gnosis

i do think that sometimes violence is necessary, yes, and i do think you can sometimes put out fire with fire, and sometimes its the only way, like burning down the surrounding area of a bush fire to contain it.
Europe would be a far worse place if the allies had not gone to war against the Nazis, this is one case where fire put out fire, even though it was at a high cost, sometimes i think that there are no other options.

i think the main reason that ISIS are attacking and recruiting is due to there specific branch of islam and not to do with our foreign policy, our actions dont help but they are not primary. it doesnt require anything other than their religeous belief to recruit and carry out the attrocities they current are.

if you were a Yazidi man in your home with your family, and the door was kicked in by ISIS who proceeded to take your wife and young daughter to become sex slaves, would simply try to reason with them and never resort to violence?
i think in this situation it would be horrific to not try everything in your power to save your wife and child from enslavement, torture and rape and this would mean resorting to violence as a last resort.

Do you think ISIS and the west are equally evil?

EG, i can see where you are coming from but some people cannot be saved & refuse to think rationally. Take terror cells for example, these are people who are so full of hate, anger, & hostility they refuse to let go of it & accept love into their hearts. They will go to the grave holding onto these negative feelings. These types of people would rather lash out & destroy than heal & make the world a Better place. They cannot be saved.

While I do not agree with war & the heinous acts that come with it, i don`t think we can realisticly just show these groups love & fix them.

IMHO, the best route we could go as a country would be to fight fire with fire. Not in the sense you may think though.
I believe the thing that may very well save our collective arses here, would be screening Muslims.
I do not mean in the typical way.
What I mean here is we need to let Muslims know they are welcome here & we do not hate all Muslims or want to ban their religion, we need to screen & allow Muslims who can prove no affiliation with terror cells to be part of our society. There may always be some rogue faction, but when we show love & allow the good Islamic people to practice freely & know that they are accepted here, we very well may eliminate a large portion of Muslims who are of the false belief Americans hate them & want nothing but war.

IME this whole anti-muslim hysteria in america is EXACTLY what terror groups want. It pushes otherwise normal & good people into being recruited by a horrible rouge faction of Islam because they believe that all Americans are evil & hate them. All due to political dickheads attempting to put blanket statements on a large group of people & inflaming a situation that promotes racism.

The war on terror may not end that way, but at the very least we could begin to reduce the number of Muslims recruited into terror & essentially recruit them to the idea that America is not a horrible, evil, sinful land.
Stopping the recruiting process in its tracks & shrinking the numbers of groups like this may very well make them easier to keep under control.

I think that we are inherently selfish but, speaking personally, i do not believe that there is a darkness deeply settled at my core.

As we have travelled down this particular path of gognitive development greed, lust, sloth, love, hate, beauty, negativity and positivity are among the cards that we have been dealt in which to deal with our surroundings.

The thing about violence is that in many cases morality is used to justify it, whether it be a jihadist strapping a bomb to themselves, the bombing of hiroshima/nagasaki or someone at a bar giving another a slap because "they were asking for it". Perhaps violence is used to relate socially to our peers and our Gods and to maintain a moral order and, due to the diversity of cultures and subsets of societies, we develop varying themes of morality. Morality also becomes flexible in the face of various situations and the extremity thereof.

In the case of ISIS they are more than likely made up of psychologically healthy individuals, their violence is not spur of the moment, it is carefully orchestrated and from a rational point of view you would think that bombing the living shit out of them would deter their actions but the subjective concept of morality changes the goalposts for this kind of solution and therefore probably makes things worse.

I am not sure whether love is the answer to confronting percieved evil/violence. A little critical thought in relation to ourselves and others and a soupcon of diplomacy for finding mutually advantageous outcomes would be a good starting point. And if that doesnt work crush all opposition with an iron fist.

Donald trump has been making this "we must fight fire with fire" argument recently

http://www.google.com/ur...fuayKLp-IpB8OlyAVy7M0zVw

https://m.youtube.com/wa...cmVsYXRlZEiDwaTCo6yOyqIB

He is calling for us to be as immoral, depraved and violent as our enemies.

You are with trump on this issue, yes?

I think it's now more important than ever that plea for peace amidst this chaos, we must not allow ourselves to react emotionally or out of anger, it's now more than ever that the voices of peace must be the loudest...




I could not disagree more.

It is more than just foreign policy, resource theft, and war atrocities perpetrated by the west, but that is the core of it, and that has created the situations which jihadist terrorism arose out of...



Regardless of what created the situation, how we are going to handle it is the more important issue.



I fully believe in self-defense in a situation like this, but it doesn't apply to world politics and conflict. This applies to the individual in that situation who was forced to defend themselves and their family, and the reasoning behind such actions in such situations does not apply to global conflict and warfare, and should not be incorporated into conversation regarding regarding how to handle modern terrorism.

I still confront negativity and violence with peace and love in all situations, and even in the rare and extreme situations where I may have to brake my commitment to peace, I still never feel it was fully acceptable even though it was "justified".

Now more than ever we must speak up for peace.

-eg

Its a good way to be.

I feel two ways to engage in violence, firstly comes from anger - it is a primal wrath that we all have. Right now when I think of it I can evoke it, I feel the wrath rising and its desire to destroy all in its path. The wrath cares not if it is justified revenge or just to be. It burns like a fire and sets that same fire on all in its path - but it reduces all to ashes.

The anger promises so much, it will make you feel powerful - its just a force of nature, It can destroy that which you do not want. You can let go into it just as you would with love. Damn, I feel like I'm channelling it right now and its asking me to ride with it just because it IS and it is part of nature.

Wrath needs no intellect or reasoning to act, but if wrath wields intellect then far more damage can be done.

You can wield love without intellect, and you will be stomped upon by the first wrathful attack, and without any help from others you will not be able to assert yourself into the world.

You can wield love with intellect, for example preventing someone or some people from hurting other people, by whatever method - which may include a reluctant use of violence. Or even to kill in order to eat.

All forms of violence will hurt you, because the others are you.

But if a hundred people tried to hurt me, I would happily do whatever violence was required to prevent them. Seeing them as "other me" I would expect no less, I would understand though that there would not be pleasure in any hurting of them - however, If I took down 100 people I would probably feel great pride in my martial skills - which could easily be misunderstood as a pride in the violence.

In fact, if I stood no chance against them it offers an interesting dilemma - should I just give up, as hurting some of them would not change the outcome? OR, by hurting some of them would I deter similar action against others? or by a passive response would I break their anger, or enlighten them to the futility of their actions?

All I guess would depend on why 100 people were trying to kill me. I think if I had no idea why I was being attacked, I would fight - because giving up is not in my nature.

Now take a war, the general is making this moral choices - you have to hope they are moral if you are a soldier, but either way you have chosen to give up your individuality and moral judgement to a leader who will make those choices for you. The actions then you must perform as a soldier can seem immoral when taken in isolation, but could on the larger scale be as a fist striking a face, the face may not be the problem, and the fist may not understand the relation of the face to the problem but each plays their part just as soldiers in war.

War therefore is just a larger scale of the same issue, and to wage war one must hold back the wrath and anger and act intellectually and with love, choosing to do what must be done for the greater good (whatever that is?).

Too many are easily driven by wrath, and this drives politics and war. This is the problem, not the acts themselves.

Life is indeed complex and the only mistake we can make is ignorance of our actions, which I am sure is rife for all of us.

As a follow up question, I'm feeling some form of relation between Wrath/Love and Action/Inaction there are definitely parallels and I am wondering if on some level they are the same thing. Perhaps all action is wielding wrath as a tool, as we use fire to achieve our aims - so with any aim it is possible to let the fire get out of control.

I hope you don't mind me switching gears and taking this from the outer world to the inner world, but what about loving the negativity within your own self? Because I was just thinking that one can come to a point in their awakening where ego becomes some kind of detached entity, and it my case it becomes very hard to love that part of myself. Is it even possible to love such an ego which fears for its very existence and lashes out with crazy thoughts?

I apologize for neglecting this thread.

In relation to the talk about the middle east, I finally transcribed the terence mckenna lecture which offers insight into the situation there, keep in mind mckenna died in 2000.



-eg

Here are my beliefs/observations :

Human beings are extremely complex creatures with many many sides.
We are neither purely evil nor purely good. Look at the Yin/Yang symbol.
There is never a full separation of either energies.
You may say "you" are filled with love and no evil, but what are you anyways?
Are you just a single organism or do you identify yourself with the infinite ocean of consciousness?
If the latter then you are not pure love.

I agree that it is almost always best to confront negative situations/entities with positivity and love possible.
However, we have animal instincts that override love for a reason.
Look at it like this :
We had to go through ALOT of dark places to get to where we are right now.
We built up from the ground. Think of the chakras...
We must first secure our basic necessities to live here.
Then we can build upon that.
First gather resources through any means necessary.
Secure a shelter/habitat.
Basic survival needs must be met through any means necessary.
We will try crossing any line when in extreme desperate conditions, and rightfully so.
Only then can we focus on loving ourselves, then a small circle, then expand it.

I am speaking personally when I say the following :
If I were in a situation in which a violent stranger were threatening me or my family, I would see if I could handle it diplomatically. If I find no peaceful solution to the situation in which myself and my family remain unharmed ; You can be damn certain I will do whatever necessary to preserve myself and my family.
Now you can view that as an act of love for myself and my family!
I could even argue that by allowing yourself to die at the hands of a violent stranger you are actually not acting out of self-love and if you can't love yourself then what can you love?
That comes down to simple basic instinct for self-preservation and survival.
Without that we would not be here.

So, yes universal love is absolutely wonderful but sometimes we must do very ugly things in life.
It is a part of nature and by denying it you are simply closing yourself off from very integral parts of this existence.
I am not saying live by evil, I try to do the opposite.
I am saying that you must recognize that there are LOTS of good and evil EVERYWHERE including in yourself if you look hard enough. We are all human beings. We are imperfect by nature.
You may feel pure and loving alot but do not be deceived, you do have inseparable evil and violence in your nature.
However, you can choose to sublimate it and act primarily out of love.

The situation in the middle-east is very complicated. It's a quagmire that we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place. I'm not going to pretend I know the solution. I'm not sure if there is one. That place has been a warground for ages... We just helped create a power-vacuum.
My problem is with the lies and corruption and abuse of power that governments have...
Violence is the primal ancient way of resolving conflicts...
We must ascend and use higher states of awareness to solve things...
But if need be we mustn't abandon instincts that have gotten us this far.
I guess I would advocate for humanitarian efforts and just spreading as much unbiased truth as possible so both sides can SEE the truth. Only then can we move to a true solution... The whole situation is shrouded by lies and deception and power hungry entities twisting everything around them.

Once again, I don't believe there will ever be peace and love through all the universe.
As was said before, you can't have something without its opposite.
Now you may be able to form peaceful civilizations in separation from the evil...maybe...
But the universe will NEVER be void of all evil/sin.
Existence is a constant struggle. Once you can learn to love existence for all of its insanity and chaos, THEN maybe you can claim to have achieved a high state of loving consciousness (But I think that is something FAR BEYOND what most are capable of)
Peace may be achieved momentarily but there is always a struggle somewhere.
Sometimes struggle finds us, sometimes not.

First of all, your friend makes no sense. I can't follow that logic. Secondly, I would tend to agree with you, however since this is a DMT site, I have a disclaimer. If we frame this discussion in terms of negative entities, you can try whatever strategies you like in interacting with them, however I have found that trying to love or hoist positive emotions on them does pretty much nothing. Since the "game" that I play with these entities is much like tag, and not getting touched, just sitting there smiling is just a welcome invitation for them to slime me (which creates a cascade of negative/null emotions).