DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
So there's been a few threads floating around here on the nexus about Christianity and it's faults and failures. Nothing new there, you can find many people in the so called counterculture community bashing christianity. The irony is that they tend to reflect New Age appropriators of the "me" generation, failing to realize their own faults and failures within the popular individualist mentality of pick-n-choose shallowness. Creating a homogenized soup they then jump on their high horse toting around this smug sense of spirituality as being more connected and separate from the word 'religion'. Here's an article from CNN that I find fitting. Just remember when you're pointing the finger at religion, there's three fingers pointing right back at you. Quote:By Alan Miller, Special to CNN
The increasingly common refrain that "I'm spiritual, but not religious," represents some of the most retrogressive aspects of contemporary society. The spiritual but not religious "movement" - an inappropriate term as that would suggest some collective, organizational aspect - highlights the implosion of belief that has struck at the heart of Western society.
Spiritual but not religious people are especially prevalent in the younger population in the United States, although a recent study has argued that it is not so much that people have stopped believing in God, but rather have drifted from formal institutions.
It seems that just being a part of a religious institution is nowadays associated negatively, with everything from the Religious Right to child abuse, back to the Crusades and of course with terrorism today.
Those in the spiritual-but-not-religious camp are peddling the notion that by being independent - by choosing an "individual relationship" to some concept of "higher power", energy, oneness or something-or-other - they are in a deeper, more profound relationship than one that is coerced via a large institution like a church.
That attitude fits with the message we are receiving more and more that "feeling" something somehow is more pure and perhaps, more "true” than having to fit in with the doctrine, practices, rules and observations of a formal institution that are handed down to us.
The trouble is that “spiritual but not religious” offers no positive exposition or understanding or explanation of a body of belief or set of principles of any kind.
What is it, this "spiritual" identity as such? What is practiced? What is believed?
The accusation is often leveled that such questions betray a rigidity of outlook, all a tad doctrinaire and rather old-fashioned.
But when the contemporary fashion is for an abundance of relativist "truths" and what appears to be in the ascendancy is how one "feels" and even governments aim to have a "happiness agenda," desperate to fill a gap at the heart of civic society, then being old-fashioned may not be such a terrible accusation.
It is within the context of today's anti-big, anti-discipline, anti-challenging climate - in combination with a therapeutic turn in which everything can be resolved through addressing my inner existential being - that the spiritual but not religious outlook has flourished.
The boom in megachurches merely reflect this sidelining of serious religious study for networking, drop-in centers and positive feelings.
Those that identify themselves, in our multi-cultural, hyphenated-American world often go for a smorgasbord of pick-and-mix choices.
A bit of Yoga here, a Zen idea there, a quote from Taoism and a Kabbalah class, a bit of Sufism and maybe some Feing Shui but not generally a reading and appreciation of The Bhagavad Gita, the Karma Sutra or the Qur'an, let alone The Old or New Testament.
So what, one may ask?
Christianity has been interwoven and seminal in Western history and culture. As Harold Bloom pointed out in his book on the King James Bible, everything from the visual arts, to Bach and our canon of literature generally would not be possible without this enormously important work.
Indeed, it was through the desire to know and read the Bible that reading became a reality for the masses - an entirely radical moment that had enormous consequences for humanity.
Moreover, the spiritual but not religious reflect the "me" generation of self-obsessed, truth-is-whatever-you-feel-it-to-be thinking, where big, historic, demanding institutions that have expectations about behavior, attitudes and observance and rules are jettisoned yet nothing positive is put in replacement.
The idea of sin has always been accompanied by the sense of what one could do to improve oneself and impact the world.
Yet the spiritual-but-not-religious outlook sees the human as one that simply wants to experience "nice things" and "feel better." There is little of transformation here and nothing that points to any kind of project that can inspire or transform us.
At the heart of the spiritual but not religious attitude is an unwillingness to take a real position. Influenced by the contribution of modern science, there is a reluctance to advocate a literalist translation of the world.
But these people will not abandon their affiliation to the sense that there is "something out there," so they do not go along with a rationalist and materialistic explanation of the world, in which humans are responsible to themselves and one another for their actions - and for the future.
Theirs is a world of fence-sitting, not-knowingess, but not-trying-ness either. Take a stand, I say. Which one is it? A belief in God and Scripture or a commitment to the Enlightenment ideal of human-based knowledge, reason and action? Being spiritual but not religious avoids having to think too hard about having to decide.
|
|
|
|
|
omnia sunt communia!
Posts: 6024 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 29-Oct-2021
|
That straw-man could be minimally tweaked to make some nice satire. Quote:Take a stand, I say. Which one is it? A belief in God and Scripture or a commitment to the Enlightenment ideal of human-based knowledge, reason and action? YES! Engage in duality or you are wrong! It must be religious or rationalist/materialist! Be dogmatic! Be self-sure about that which exceeds certainty! Is it this or that? Don't know? Well, CHOOSE!!! Quote:Christianity has been interwoven and seminal in Western history and culture. As Harold Bloom pointed out in his book on the King James Bible, everything from the visual arts, to Bach and our canon of literature generally would not be possible without this enormously important work. Yup, it has been interwoven. Nothing like converting indigenous practices through missionary structures and carrying out genocide to build a society on. Quote:Moreover, the spiritual but not religious reflect the "me" generation of self-obsessed, truth-is-whatever-you-feel-it-to-be thinking, where big, historic, demanding institutions that have expectations about behavior, attitudes and observance and rules are jettisoned yet nothing positive is put in replacement.
The idea of sin has always been accompanied by the sense of what one could do to improve oneself and impact the world. This whole argument is predicated on social/institutional control. What a hoot Wiki • Attitude • FAQThe Nexian • Nexus Research • The OHTIn New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested. In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names. גם זה יעבור
|
|
|
veni, vidi, spici
Posts: 3642 Joined: 05-Aug-2011 Last visit: 22-Sep-2017
|
I think Mr Miller is wrong, very, very wrong. INHALE, SURVIVE, ADAPT it's all in your mind, but what's your mind??? fool of the year
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 559 Joined: 24-Dec-2011 Last visit: 03-Nov-2020
|
Organized religion doesn't like spirituality because it reduces their stranglehold on the masses who follow/fund them. Honestly, I find it fairly obvious organized religion is anti free-thinking in general. You either follow their dogma or they block you out as an inferior "other".
The last thing the Church wants you to do is find the divinity within yourself. Apparently that is only cool if you are Jesus.
If mainstream Christianity was even remotely based on the teachings of Jesus, or teaching people to strive to live in path of Jesus I would have much less of a problem with it.
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 73 Joined: 13-Jan-2011 Last visit: 07-Jul-2014
|
SnozzleBerry wrote: That straw-man could be minimally tweaked to make some nice satire. Quote:Take a stand, I say. Which one is it? A belief in God and Scripture or a commitment to the Enlightenment ideal of human-based knowledge, reason and action? YES! Engage in duality or you are wrong! It must be religious or rationalist/materialist! Be dogmatic! Be self-sure about that which exceeds certainty! Is it this or that? Don't know? Well, CHOOSE!!! Quote:Christianity has been interwoven and seminal in Western history and culture. As Harold Bloom pointed out in his book on the King James Bible, everything from the visual arts, to Bach and our canon of literature generally would not be possible without this enormously important work. Yup, it has been interwoven. Nothing like converting indigenous practices through missionary structures and carrying out genocide to build a society on. Quote:Moreover, the spiritual but not religious reflect the "me" generation of self-obsessed, truth-is-whatever-you-feel-it-to-be thinking, where big, historic, demanding institutions that have expectations about behavior, attitudes and observance and rules are jettisoned yet nothing positive is put in replacement.
The idea of sin has always been accompanied by the sense of what one could do to improve oneself and impact the world. This whole argument is predicated on social/institutional control. What a hoot Could not agree more. He is pushing for everybody to choose materialism or religion, what he must have missed is that it is a false dichotomy. Also, who says that "spiritual people" does not read the Quran or Bible etc? I have read a translation of the Quran and some parts of the Bhagavad Gita and other religious texts, is that supposed to prove something? Or would it prove something if I had not? Alan Miller does not know what he is talking about. Edit: I must comment on this too: "But these people will not abandon their affiliation to the sense that there is "something out there," so they do not go along with a rationalist and materialistic explanation of the world, in which humans are responsible to themselves and one another for their actions - and for the future." The main conclusion he wants to draw is this: so called "spiritual" people are irresponsible, they do not believe in science, and they do not believe in religion, they just do not care of anything and takes no responsibility for their or others actions.
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
SnozzleBerry wrote:
YES! Engage in duality or you are wrong! It must be religious or rationalist/materialist! Be dogmatic! Be self-sure about that which exceeds certainty! Is it this or that? Don't know? Well, CHOOSE!!!
I believe he's highlighting the fact that the "spiritual, not religious" people tend to sit on the fence. A bit more rhetorical than literal, like you put it. SnozzleBerry wrote:Yup, it has been interwoven. Nothing like converting indigenous practices through missionary structures and carrying out genocide to build a society on. He's not taking a side there, he's simply stating a fact that Christianity is interwoven with western culture. He's not saying that's necessarily a good thing, it just is. He could have included imperialism and genocide in that sentence. SnozzleBerry wrote:This whole argument is predicated on social/institutional control. You need to re-read. The argument is predicated on the fallacy that if you are individualistic and appropriate other religions that somehow you're more spiritual. It is not promoting or putting out a message of social/institutional control...
|
|
|
☂
Posts: 5257 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 24-Aug-2024 Location: 🌊
|
snozzl sorry haeretic but the irony of the OP is just
<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
|
|
|
omnia sunt communia!
Posts: 6024 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 29-Oct-2021
|
haeratic wrote:SnozzleBerry wrote:This whole argument is predicated on social/institutional control. You need to re-read. The argument is predicated on the fallacy that if you are individualistic and appropriate other religions that somehow you're more spiritual. It is not promoting or putting out a message of social/institutional control... I don't think so... Quote:here big, historic, demanding institutions that have expectations about behavior, attitudes and observance and rules are jettisoned yet nothing positive is put in replacement.
The idea of sin has always been accompanied by the sense of what one could do to improve oneself and impact the world. This is being presented as a negative. The conclusion he is drawing is that these forms of control are "good" or "necessary." Also, his stance on the effects of "sin" as conceptualized by organized religion is both incredibly myopic and rather amusing. Wiki • Attitude • FAQThe Nexian • Nexus Research • The OHTIn New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested. In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names. גם זה יעבור
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
alert wrote:Organized religion doesn't like spirituality because it reduces their stranglehold on the masses who follow/fund them. Honestly, I find it fairly obvious organized religion is anti free-thinking in general. You either follow their dogma or they block you out as an inferior "other".
The last thing the Church wants you to do is find the divinity within yourself. Apparently that is only cool if you are Jesus.
If mainstream Christianity was even remotely based on the teachings of Jesus, or teaching people to strive to live in path of Jesus I would have much less of a problem with it.
This is true. However, New Age appropriation of various cultures and religion is just as much at fault. The article wasn't arguing for organized religion, it was simply showing how there's not much difference, besides fence sitting.
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1453 Joined: 05-Apr-2009 Last visit: 02-Feb-2014 Location: hypospace
|
I find, speaking for myself only, that religion is often spiritual, and spirituality is often religious. There is some common ground in the definitions of spiritual and religious.
For me, to be spiritual is to be religious, but to be religious does not always entail being spiritual.
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
SnozzleBerry wrote: The conclusion he is drawing is that these forms of control are "good" or "necessary." He's not drawing that conclusion, he's saying that the "spiritual, not religious" have done nothing to replace these forms of control. Quote:Moreover, the spiritual but not religious reflect the "me" generation of self-obsessed, truth-is-whatever-you-feel-it-to-be thinking, where big, historic, demanding institutions that have expectations about behavior, attitudes and observance and rules are jettisoned yet nothing positive is put in replacement.
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
AlbertKLloyd wrote:I find, speaking for myself only, that religion is often spiritual, and spirituality is often religious. There is some common ground in the definitions of spiritual and religious.
For me, to be spiritual is to be religious, but to be religious does not always entail being spiritual. Well said Albert. The whole basis of that article is the critique of this new age idea in contemporary society that spirituality (as created by their religious appropriation) is somehow above or beyond religion. Is it different from organized religion, yes, but it's still religious.
|
|
|
omnia sunt communia!
Posts: 6024 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 29-Oct-2021
|
haeratic wrote:SnozzleBerry wrote: The conclusion he is drawing is that these forms of control are "good" or "necessary." He's not drawing that conclusion, he's saying that the "spiritual, not religious" have done nothing to replace these forms of control. Quote:Moreover, the spiritual but not religious reflect the "me" generation of self-obsessed, truth-is-whatever-you-feel-it-to-be thinking, where big, historic, demanding institutions that have expectations about behavior, attitudes and observance and rules are jettisoned yet nothing positive is put in replacement. You're missing the point. By presenting it as a problem that people have not made up new insitutions of control, he is implicitly stating that such behavior is "bad." That notion is absurd. If people don't want to be controlled, they won't erect institutions or structure that allow for control/coercion/etc. If people want to be free, they won't create institutions that enslave them...ok...and this is a problem because...? And don't forget what you omitted: Quote:The idea of sin has always been accompanied by the sense of what one could do to improve oneself and impact the world. This is an argument for control through the concept of sin, which is a ludicrous premise to begin with, but if this is an example of the types of institutional control he's looking for, all I can do is continue to laugh. Wiki • Attitude • FAQThe Nexian • Nexus Research • The OHTIn New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested. In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names. גם זה יעבור
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
I can't tell you how annoying it is, when talking to someone, they tell me they're "spiritual, not religious." I can't help but rant on the irony of their new age religious appropriations that they repackage into a smug definition of "spirituality."
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
Snozzle, while I don't agree with his views on sin. He definitely is not trying to promote control. He's simply showing that a new narcissistic sense of spirituality has crept up in society w/o replacing any old forms of control.
|
|
|
☂
Posts: 5257 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 24-Aug-2024 Location: 🌊
|
Well, what are your views haeretic? what are you're beliefs, if you have any? are you 'religious?' and if so in what way? i'm actually very curious
<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1453 Joined: 05-Apr-2009 Last visit: 02-Feb-2014 Location: hypospace
|
haeratic wrote:I can't tell you how annoying it is, when talking to someone, they tell me they're "spiritual, not religious." I can't help but rant on the irony of their new age religious appropriations that they repackage into a smug definition of "spirituality." I feel very similarly.
|
|
|
omnia sunt communia!
Posts: 6024 Joined: 29-Jul-2009 Last visit: 29-Oct-2021
|
He IS trying to promote control. He is arguing against the loss of institutions of control while at the same time telling people they MUST make a choice. Honestly, based on this statement Quote:I can't tell you how annoying it is, when talking to someone, they tell me they're "spiritual, not religious." I can't help but rant on the irony of their new age religious appropriations that they repackage into a smug definition of "spirituality." and your lack of critical engagement with the author you are quoting, it really seems, to me, that you are simply looking for validation on something that irks you. This truly is a rant. It starts out a rant and the ranting is continuing. There is no presentation of examples in either your writing or your quote, just a vague "they" who do this thing you don't like. It's not religious appropriation to talk about, comment on, or experience the divine. In fact, a strong argument can be made detailing how organized religion appropriated the concept of "the divine" in order to control people. If people feel that there is something greater than themselves but do not ascribe to a particular religion, why should that matter? Why should that offend you? who. cares. Wiki • Attitude • FAQThe Nexian • Nexus Research • The OHTIn New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested. In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names. גם זה יעבור
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
universecannon wrote:Well, what are your views haeretic? what are you're beliefs, if you have any? are you 'religious?' and if so in what way? i'm actually very curious i've been reading about animism for some time now. animism is considered religious. I don't go around telling people I'm spiritual, but not religious. they're one in the same in my eyes.
|
|
|
DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 151 Joined: 30-Nov-2012 Last visit: 19-Dec-2012
|
SnozzleBerry wrote:He IS trying to promote control. He is arguing against the loss of institutions of control while at the same time telling people they MUST make a choice. he's not arguing against the loss of institutions he is arguing against the idea that "spiritual, but not religious" people are fence-sitting between mysticism and materialism Quote:Theirs is a world of fence-sitting, not-knowingess, but not-trying-ness either.
|