So, I made an acacia-rue brew (4 grams syrian rue boiled and 10 grams shredded acacia cold water extracted) and took it with a friend from Brazil last week, who has tripped a handful of times in traditional contexts in Brazil. He told me the dose was about as strong as what he had taken in Brazil with the Santo Daime and another group whose name he did not mention.

(pats self on back)

HOWEVER - he then told me that these groups offer a SECOND dose equal to or greater than the first initial dose, 2 to 2.5 hours after taking the initial dose.

He told me that after taking this second dose, is when all the crazy trips you usually hear about ayahuasca happens. Spirits from the forest coming out and talking to you, out of body visions, etc.

It's like when I took a genuine 300 ug LSD tab for the first time, and realized, "oh, THIS is why LSD has such a reputation - because back in the 60's tabs were NORMALLY dosed this insanely". Hahaha. I had always found ayahuasca so lucid! Sure, I tripped balls on it, but it was the most clear headed experience I'd ever had, right after acid! I always thought those shamans were just drum/song wizards who were insanely skilled at vaulting people into higher dimensions. I still totally believe in their craft! But, I also now see why people come back from South America with these insane stories, lololol. Massssssive doses.

I'm going to try this at some point this summer!

Has anyone done this / does anyone normally do this, when ingesting their brew?

Does anyone know why they might be taking a second dose, rather than simply taking one massive dose from the get-go?

******Update:
I did this, I forgot I posted here saying I was going to do it. I almost got shell shocked from the onslaught of fractal energy. I ended up realizing I was going to be lying on my bed going in and out of consciousness unable to puke because I never puke on ayahuasca. My ears were ringing, my face was pale white. I was being shell shocked. It was intensely unpleasant and traumatizing.

So, I reached up to the sky, grabbed hold of the celestial energies, and dragged them down to earth. I was jumping and skipping around laughing after that.

Nobody I have ever met in my life (well, one guy, maybe) could do this. Moral of the story: Unless you are the kind of person who spends hours upon hours daily meditating and studying religious philosophy and has done multiple ten strip acid trips and similar doses of shrooms and does heroic doses of ayahuasca every week while sitting zazen not moving for hours journeying through visions, plus has high intuitive ability in working with psychedelics and other mystical states --- I highly advise you not take a second dose of ayahuasca.

It was the harmalas. It's not like taking a second dose of shrooms or acid. The harmalas multiply the effects exponentially.

Even when a certain depth is established on command, the personal impressionability can change dramatically one day against the other. A very aya weathered guy once told me: the true power does not lie in the aya but in the icaro's, like aya is the horse power engine but the icaro's are the steering wheel, rudder, transmission and compass and they determine fundamentally where you end.

You might be right about increasing horse power with more cups. If that is your aim then go horse power and expect to be over powered. Honestly: it's not as funny to me, just hard very hard work.

When to drink, how much to drink, the situation will be very self explanatory, it's hard to determine that in advance imho.

PS: please watch you language

I work with 100g Caapi and 30g Chali dvided into two cups.. 1 first then the second after 30-60min.
This creates an experience in my view very similar to smoked dmt.. maybe more Changa.. and it is beyond any other Ayahuasca tried with Shamans and other retreats!

"Spirits" definitely comes out!

RESPECTFUL COMMUNICATION

Watch your language. Communication is comprised of not only the explicit but also the implicit messages, which are transmitted through choice of words and general tone of speech. We do not want curse words and immature slang in the Nexus! Please use language in a dignified manner.

-Attitude Page - DMT-Nexus Wiki

Had deleted it before ya posted Thanks for reposting it though!

Alright, before this turns into a cortisol-button-pressing event.

I am sorry for my response to you. I found your response to me slightly condescending, and I apologize for having reacted as I did.

I will admit, I actually do find this second-dose scenario somewhat comical. And, also simultaneously not so comical... not because of the "hard work" you mention. I'll tell you a story. You might have heard it in the news. A friend of some friends of mine (I don't know the guy) went down to Peru, and while (apparently) significantly overdosed on ayahuasca, he stabbed somebody to death. So yes, "overpowered" is the right word for it. Just like back in the 60's, when tabs were dosed 5 times higher than they generally are today - these doses can have tragic, comic, and transcendent effects. That this is apparently a matter of routine, I find incredibly irresponsible. I personally would not be giving unsuspecting members of the public doses like these. Shamans and even churches like the Santo Daime apparently are though.

I don't think anything's "self-explanatory". And, it seems like these groups are doing this as a matter of routine - not on a contextual/situational basis. But forget the irresponsibility of it and the moral issues, all I want to know is: why? Why this dosing regimen? Why a second dose, 2.5 hours after the first, rather than simply offering a single large dose to begin with? Why is *this* the routine for these groups? That's all I'm asking.

And yeah, I know the techniques are the main guiding factor here. I think I noted this in my first post. But - as my friend from Brazil told me - it isn't until that second dose that the out of body experiences, and entity visitations, began for him, at least. So, that seems to be the reason for the hefty dose. I'm just wondering: why in this particular procedure? Why not just one big dose from the get-go?

The slight condescending was meant in a good spirit (thx for edit)
In group I drink 2, solo always 1. I can't generalize what's best overall.

Self-explanatory: I mean you know to take a second or not when the bar opens again. Sometimes in contradiction to expectations made in advance. Depends mainly on the dose in the first cup I suppose.

I did this, I forgot I posted here saying I was going to do it. I almost got shell shocked from the onslaught of fractal energy. I ended up realizing I was going to be lying on my bed going in and out of consciousness unable to puke because I never puke on ayahuasca. My ears were ringing, my face was pale white. I was being shell shocked. It was intensely unpleasant and traumatizing.

So, I reached up to the sky, grabbed hold of the celestial energies, and dragged them down to earth. I was jumping and skipping around laughing after that.

Nobody I have ever met in my life (well, one guy, maybe) could do this. Moral of the story: Unless you are the kind of person who spends hours upon hours daily meditating and studying religious philosophy and has done multiple ten strip acid trips and similar doses of shrooms and does heroic doses of ayahuasca every week while sitting zazen not moving for hours journeying through visions, plus has high intuitive ability in working with psychedelics and other mystical states --- I highly advise you not take a second dose of ayahuasca.

It was the harmalas. It's not like taking a second dose of shrooms or acid. The harmalas multiply the effects exponentially.

Really? I'm surprised about this. First retreat I went to always had second round. In fact I always did this as well drinking solo, except for when just testing dose. It's very common at dutch retreats.

But what you describe sound like overdose, happens to me once after 3 cups with delayed onset. Just neuro transmitter overload. This was in a traditional setting.

But having two cups is very common

30 gram chaliponga over two cups!! Thats almost bordering insane. I hope you have a sitter at those levels. Just to make sure you don't end up face up on your back when purge hit ... Are you able to move??

Might be I'm just fainter of heart than I thought Or my doses are a little kooky (12.5 G acacia / 4 G syrian rue).

I wouldn't recommend it for others though. Just bigger initial doses. I'm happy to hear it works for you.

12.5 g of acacia is a bit on the high side indeed if cooking is done well. Acacia is trickier to cook though. I do at least 4 washes of each 4 hrs, and freeze material between washes.

Aya may be the one that I have never felt the need to "double dose." Oh, and mescaline. Lol

Lots of mushrooms. Lots of LSD. Lots of DMT (vaped). Lots of other double dipping.

Never felt the need to push aya to the extreme. I've taken it far enough to get what I wanted. I wanted migraines to go away. They had increased to weekly and lasting 2-3 days.

Finally, i got completely fed up and figured i had nothing to lose. It worked. Haven't had a migraine for about 45 days. That's the best stretch i've had in three years. I also stopped taking the prescribed meds they offered to prevent it.

I'm thankful.

It sucks, kinda. Cause i had to act like an asshole to get the attention of a specific entity. And then I had to TELL it that the migraines were going to be over. There was no request. I was tired of asking. Asking only left me with being ignored. So, I changed the approach.

A lot of other things have begun to fall into place, after that. My stomach issues got better. I feel physically better. I feel mentally more clear.

I dunno. Double dose? Or does dose matter? I don't know, because i have no idea how much material went into the brew. I kept adding more chacruna and caapi all day, while it brewed. So, i could not even know a "quantity." I didn't care. The quantity could have been 0. The intent was pretty sincere. I was tired of unexplained migraines. MRI and EEG said "no tumors and no seizures." So the dox said, "go see a neurologist." Well, they had drained my funds telling me that they couldn't find anything. So, no neurologist.

Take Care,
ACY

What was your luck with psilocybin? One of the big things with them was cluster headaches going away. Were they able to do anything noticeable?

Moderate luck. Usually only temporary relief and then it would resurface. There were a few others, when used independently, would give temp relief. I think it was a combo that kinda pushed it.


There were psilocybin mushrooms eaten with the aya brew. Along with other things.

Ayahuasca is typically served three or four times in modern ceremonies (including Santo Daime works).

This allows for a more gentle entry into the space, makes the ceremonies longer and helps divide them into logical parts by glasses. For example, in a Santo Daime work, the hinário may be divided into three parts, and you do part 1 on glass 1, part 2 on glass 2 etc., with a break between the 2nd and the 3rd. In a circle ceremony you may have e.g. glass 1 with lights on, glass 2 with lights off and meditation on glass 3.

In indigenous and mestizo ceremonies in Peru the ceremony structure is not as involved and they like short ceremonies, so they usually do just one glass with the option for a second one for those who are not feeling much.

Have dreamed Ayahuasca over 55 times over the years...found it very important to have a near empty stomach, eating only a big breakfast and skipping lunch, then waiting till around 4pm before dreaming the caapi + 3oz reduced down 30g Hawaiian leaf brew taken at the exact same time--seems to work very well, as the stomach is quite empty by then, and the launch is full on and super strong. If the actives get trapped in the gall bladder from the leaf (which happens quite often with me) I will microwave 3 slices of pepperoni with a slice of cheese on top for 10 seconds, and eat this hot snack which kicks the dream into gear within 10 minutes, but I only do this if the dream does not get going within an hour or 1.5 hour of ingestion in dreams.

Each 1oz of my reduced and filtered down Hawaiian leaf dream is the equivalent of 10g of Hawaiian psychotria, so 3oz = 30g of the leaf, which is a moderately strong dose. I brew 240g of leaf at once in dreams, filter it, then reduce it at the end down to 24oz...always filtering the leaf brew thru a wire strainer 1st, then a cotton ball sitting in a clean automotive funnel to get the brew super clean, (switching out the cotton ball when it clogs, keep 2 funnels side by side in jars, swap the cotton out around a dozen times)...works fast and gets all fine muddy particles out that are irritating to the stomach and intestines for a nausea free brew to the stomach.

Double dose makes the experience last not just 1.5 hours of super strong activity, but 3 hours of very strong activity, it works, but the leaf admixture amount dreamed of with the second caapi brew must be kept low to moderate, or will cause purging if too strong due to all the heavy caapi alkaloids being active as well.

The visions are quite spectacular on the 2nd dose taken shortly after the 1st dose dies down after 2 to 3 hours, have done the double dose dream around 3 times over the years...the caapi really shines on the higher doses...

....those are the times remember seeing completely naked female dancers twirling around slowly rotating marble pillars, lots of beautiful half naked to completely naked women, waterfalls, birds, decorated elephants from India, a beautiful girl's face with freckles, zooming in from afar like a bird to view Atlantis, flying like a bird over what looked like Los Angeles as I could see all the swimming pools and parks below....flying like a bird is common on higher caapi doses.

Just as Julian Palmer writes about in his book "Articulations" the actual plant based leaf brew admixture is so much more powerful, brighter, clearer and full on immersive than extracted xtals. The actual Shaman based Plant admixture brew is out of this world powerful, the experience at times has been so powerful can only sit in one spot for 1.5 hours without moving an inch as the visions are so intense and immersive, even moving a few inches from the same spot would cause hundreds of new visions to form, best to stay put and deal with the already powerful experience as it develops....the room fills with neon colors, tracers abound, beauty is seen for hours which is infinite and eternal in scope.

For me, three to four hours is not unusual with ayahuasca. Even with a normal dose of around 55 grams of caapi. If i take something like eighty grams, it can even last up to six hours.

I never felt the need to push it further with the caapi. I did with other admixtures, but i think i have reached a sort of sweetspot with eighty grams.

I find it gets very immersive with that dose. But there is also a warmth to it and a mildness. It almost feels like a soft embrace. You probably know the feeling. I fear that if i would take even more caapi, it would lose that quality for me.

I have experimented with combinations of caapi and rue as well. Small amounts of rue soaked in only warm water for a night. I then use that water to brew caapi with.
It may be a placebo effect, but i believe it does add something. You get a little wider array of harmala alkaloids. They seem to go well together, as long as only small quantities of rue taken.

Same here dragonrider, I stick with just a single dose which is plenty now days, fantastic 3 to 4 hours and two days of afterglow. Double dose is just too much these days. The hours of endless infinite beauty with open eyes is mind-boggling with just a single session, gives one lots to think about for weeks. What I like the best is that I can go to sleep by 11pm or so just fine, and get plenty of sleep, and feel refreshed the next day, it is different from other entheogens in that way.

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