The Alkemist, totally respect your experiences and reports with the barks.
The barks seem to clash more with caapi from the reports I have read, could be the mild SRI (serotonin reuptake inhibitor) which is in caapi (not found in rue). The rue + bark combo's seem more suited with each other then with caapi.
A short compilation which delves into this theoretical possibility:
Part 4: Admixture Leaf (traditional) vs admixture bark (non-traditional)
In conclusion: "differing view points" in the literature: Julian Palmer talks about his experiences with traditional vs. non-traditional Ayahuasca in his book "Articulations, On the Utilization and Meaning of Psychedelics", very down to earth book written by an Australian expert (brilliant writer as well) with over 20 years experience...in chapter 4 he covers "Ayahuasca". Benny Shanon covers his 130 plus experiences with "traditional" Caapi + psychotria Ayahuasca in his book "Antipodes of the Mind".
Current research reveals yuremamine (which is found in mimosa and acacia) is an mao inhibitor, and should not be combined therefore with caapi:
intramolecular hydrogen bonding of the tertiary aliphatic nitrogen of yuremamine protects it from metabolism and could allow it to act as an inhibitor of MAO, thus facilitating the oral activity of DMT in this single-plant formulation. Presently the putative pharmacology of purified yuremamine is unknown.
Full document on yuremamine:
https://catbull.com/alamut/Bibliothek/I ... indole.pdf
More on various bark vs. leaf:
Dzikus:
Chacruna and Chaliponga are similar in effects, usually bright and colorful. Both have a long history of indigenous use as admixtures to Ayahuasca. Chacruna is the kindest of them all. Chaliponga contains 5-MeO-DMT as well as N,N-DMT. Her visions are somewhat fuzzier, but the effects seem to last longer, and the afterglow is more pronounced. Jurema contains some other stuff not well known, which some call "jungle DMT". It is sinister and scary, much about devils and death. Her visions are of subterranean worlds- hell, caves, underground tunnels.
69Ron:
SWIM has more consistent results from Hawaiian Psychotria viridis. Hawaiian Psychotria viridis is less toxic compared to Mimosa. Mimosa has a lot of tannins and other junk you don’t want to ingest. Most people find Psychotria more pleasant and less toxic feeling that Mimosa.
For ayahuasca, P. viridis is much better. The trip is smoother, less toxic feeling. SWIM always prefers P. viridis over M. hostilis. The effects are cleaner, friendlier, and just plain better. There’s something about M. hostilis that makes it feel darker, more toxic.
A caapi only brew is sometimes recommended as your first experience. Harmine and tetrahydroharmine are the main active alkaloids in caapi, and when taken together without admixture plant, they alone can cause visions, but they are dark, daydream-like, and not as vivid as those had when an admixture plant source is added. Admixture greatly enhances the visual effects of harmine and harmaline, and also introduces “psychedelic” alterations to the thought processes. Admixture makes the experience much more intense, and can also make the experience more frightening for a first time user, especially if the dose is high enough.
My recommendation for a first time experience is to use a weak brew made using chacruna and caapi and nothing else. Don't use mimosa, and don't use chaliponga. Chacruna gives a much friendlier experience than either mimosa or chaliponga. Chaliponga is often recommended for experienced users only.
Seriously, don’t use mimosa. There is no such thing as Ayahuasca made with mimosa. The natives do not use mimosa for making Ayahuasca. There must be a good reason they don’t use it in Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca made with mimosa feels quite toxic to SWIM, and is probably not good for you. That’s probably why they don’t use it. When SWIM uses mimosa in ayahuasca he feels tense, gets lots of stomach problems, and feels some unusual toxic effects that are hard to describe. It just doesn’t feel healthy to SWIM. SWIM has decided to never use ayahuasca made with mimosa. He thinks possibly liver damage or something worse may be the result of using mimosa in ayahuasca too often. There are no long term studies of users of mimosa based ayahuasca around to show that it’s safe. There are such studies for ayahuasca made with chacruna and chaliponga showing that long term use is safe.
I think once you've had enough experience with ayahuasca made with chacruna and ayahuasca made with mimosa, you'll notice just how much more toxic a mimosa based ayahuasca feels, and you’re likely going to stop using it and switch to brews made with chacruna.
I think listening to the body is important. Mimosa in Ayahuasca doesn't feel healthy.
As for the natives who use mimosa, they don't use it with any MAOI, and their habit has not been extensively studied.
Most people use mimosa because it's cheaper, and when they are given real ayahuasca made with chacruna, most of them make the switch to it because it feels much healthier. That’s been SWIM’s experience with the people he knows.
Mimosa is cheap. People use it because it's cheap. Same with rue. People use rue because it’s cheap.
There are many shamans who have the internet now and know about how cheap mimosa is and have tried it. So your reasoning behind why they do not use mimosa in ayahuasca only applies to shamans living in the jungle. Other shamans who know about mimosa still do not use it in ayahuasca because their followers in general prefer ayahuasca made with chacruna. It feels better for the body and has a long history of safe use.
I’m willing to bet that long term use of ayahuasca made with mimosa will cause liver damage or some other health problems. It feels that toxic to SWIM.
shroomdoom:
I prefer Chacruna by far to Mimosa which consistently produces a rougher more confusing experience. Let's just say this I would rather be deep in and fully immersed ( complete with throbbing machine/wave vibration noise...you know the one) in a wall of visions from Chacruna any day than M hostilis.
The content of my experiences from Mimosa has been largely negative and much more confusing/disorienting. First of all I hate to brew it because it's got too much tannins and it's nasty to digest. Then Mimosa seems to be this wily, semi-malevolent character that is happy to kick your ass in an overt way. I feel like drinking brews with mimosa induce a savage and jubilant eating of my psyche with this purple, green, red and golden parade to accompany.
The first difference I notice to Chacruna, I feel more disoriented and fearful from my mimosa brews and the anxiety level is high. I have seen other people react even more extremely negatively than myself to mimosa and rue preparations; a girl screaming vocalizations that sound inhuman, a guy having involuntary and violent spasms that resemble breakdancing of some sort, a grown man in his 30s unhinged so bad he was afraid to be in the dark alone in the 3 weeks after his experience. I have seen enough repeated negative reactions dealing with Mimosa and companion plants to not want to ever work with it again in my brews or recommend it to anyone. I don't know if it's the companion alkaloids or the high amount of tannins ect but something about that stuff isn't nice.
Also for me it has nothing to do with high vs low DMT content effecting the quality of the experience. I have Hawaiian Chacruna of legendary potency that works at roughly the same gram amounts as m. hostilis bark. I just don't like that Jurema in my Ayahuasca. Call it personal preference.
Jixe:
I wouldn't mix acacia with ayahuasca vine (caapi) It's not a good idea in my experience and from seeing others especially with trouble breathing, this is why actually just mix aya vine and the chacruna or chali.
Atheio (4 years ago):
Be careful with acacia confusa, it has another alkaloid called NMT. Which MHRB does not have, and AFAIK it's been connected to bad experiences.
TheAppleCore:
Definitely go with the chacruna (psychotria viridis).
There are a few reasons that mimosa hostilis is not ideal for a newcomer to ayahuasca. Firstly, p. viridis is essentially nontoxic, whereas m. hostilis has toxins that increase the likelihood of overdose, or at least a highly unpleasant experience (I have been there, due to careless brewing, and yes it is *horrible*). Secondly, m. hostilis is known as having a very harsh and unforgiving "spirit", whereas chacruna is generally considered to have more of a gentle and maternal spirit. Thirdly, chacruna has a very long history of traditional use in ayahuasca brews, and has a very good safety track record, whereas we are currently unsure of potential long-term health ramifications of m. hostilis as an aya admixture.
swimmingdancer:
There are all sorts of alkaloids and various other compounds in the plants. One alkaloid that I know has been isolated in mimosa hostilis is yuremamine. There is not much yet known about yuremamine, it represents an entirely new family of indole derivatives (tryptophan, the precursor of serotonin is an indole as well). Yuremamine also contains DMT within its molecular structure. It has been suggested that perhaps one of yuremamine's properties might be that it acts as an MAOI or a prodrug, because mimosa has been found to be orally active while DMT on its own is not.
Becometheother (9/25/2016):
Some of the exact same stuff I just said above is 100 percent echoed here, which I think adds some weight to what I said. Right down to the visions of darkness and hell! And I have never read this thread before..
Is is a pretty well known generality within the aya community that aya is lighter and more gentle on the body and mind then rue.
Rue mimosa for me is a fiery experience that also seems very masculine. Visions of fire and even the underworld come into being. Intense primordial energies are encountered. Feelings of actually being poisoned come up. The visions for me lead to words the darker. I met a spirit that appeared in the dress of a witch doctor and stared face to face with me but his eyes were only empty sockets. He followed me around the rest of the experience.
Ayahuasca is much lighter and airy, much more the upper than the lower world. More feminine. For example on traditional vine and leaf aya, I saw a vision of a diverse group of humans holding hands in a giant circle dancing together to the rhythm of a very nice song that I can actually remember the melody of. Then I experienced the pure love of the universe, nothing but pure love, and was told I am always loved and never to give into fear cause I have love.
I had a journey to a sub aquatic realm where my friend appeared to be some kind of octopus and I had grippy water visuals and sounds all night.
Although themes and content may change, that much is consistent aya is compared to the air the water female light. Mimosa rue, compared to heavy earth fire masculine. Also from a less spiritual and more practical standpoint rue mimosa IS harsher on the body by a long shot.
It may sound like I am saying aya is better, I am not, I actually have the most experience with rue and mimosa and often gravitate tword fire and darkness Smile
I'm not inferring there is subtle differences I'm outright saying the differences are huge. And not just related to chemistry, I'm talking about the whole package.
How many times have you used aya and how many times with acacia rue? I think it's relevant if you don't mind answering.
Also I'm really curious on others perspective, if not I know I could dig up some old mimosa vs aya threads.
All is in good spirit though, in the end we are more similar then different and at least we have in common that we are passionate about these substances and mysticism.
Yogashaman21:
I had a horrible experience with mimosahuasca (ayahuasca vine + mimosa hostilis) brew ten days ago.
As soon as it kicked in I just kept hearing voices and felt literally like my body was made of rubber it was such a sickly feeling and my heart was gripped in anxiety and fear and I felt myself descending downwards the whole time while entities were mocking me and sneering at me. And it lasted for about 5 hours. I've been having psychic and mental difficulties since then because of it.
I feel really sad, because I was sure that ayahuasca and mimosa would become a beneficial spiritual ally for me. But elsewhere on this forum I read that mimosa is completely unloving and aggressive and indifferent to humans, and that it is not compatible with the ayahuasca path. If that is the case, then maybe I could try again in like a month but with chagraponga instead of mimosa. I really wanted Ayahuasca to become a spiritual guide to me, so that I can transcend my fears and sickness and become more spiritually enlightened.
Maybe Ayahuasca vine with chagraponga will be a totally different experience. I am going to try that out eventually and hopefully it will be a better experience. My previous experience with vine and mimosa just sent me spiraling downwards into a realm of confusion and fear; I did not receive any healing from it, nor did I learn anything. It just seems like a big garbled mess, like a 5-hour long computer error.thanks for reading.
medchemist (April 25, 2011)
from Ayahuasca.com "what are Ayahuasca analogues" comments after the main paper:
To this discussion I will add a cautionary word of advice regarding P. harmala and Mimosa hostilis admixtures. I used a tea prepared from exactly 3.0g Syrian Rue seeds and 3.0 – 6.0g jeruma on a fairly regular basis some 5 years ago. My friend also participated in these experiences with me. The tea was prepared by three consecutive extractions of the two plant materials mixed together in the ratio stated. The solvent was 1/4 lemon juice water, and the temperature was just at the point of a light boil for all three extractions. Plant material was removed by filtration through a white cotton t-shirt in every case. The experiences from this teas decoction are unequaled by anything I have ever known in my life.
Unfortunately, following about a half a year of using this tea about twice per month on average, I developed drug-induced hepatitis, bloody urine, and grey stools. A visit to the doctor revealed that my liver AST and ALT levels were through the roof. My firend also had this same result. After cessation of tea consumption, we both returned to normal health. I cannot say whether it was the jerume, the rue, or both plants that caused this, and there were no other drugs in the equation in either my case or my friend’s case. I am no a pharmaceutical scientist, and I cannot find any systematic studies that have been done on the various admixtures of ayahuasca that prove or discount liver/kidney toxicity.
However, i would urge anyone who is thinking about traveling the sweet road of ayahuasca visions to take care to avoid jeruma and syrian rue. Again, I do not know that the vine and chacruna are any easier on the liver, but I can say for certain that in two different cases, frequent use of rue and jeruma is a road to hepatotoxicity. I would also think that those who are already hepatocompromised should avoid rue and jeruma at all costs. I dislike that this is the case, because I loved the stuff, but I think there needs to be strong scientific evidence that ayahuasca is not systemically toxic.
Unfortunately, such evidence is lacking at this writing. Try the vine and chacruna if you must, but be careful even then, and make sure you get check ups and bloodwork from your doctor to ensure that your liver and kidneys are not being compromised. For my part, I regard either rue or jeruma as unacceptably toxic. Tread with caution folks, and stay free.
You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.