I also think that the idea that conciousness is something that immerges out of a state of higher complexity and is temporal makes it seem even more special and sacred...it's like surfing the perfect wave..dropping in on a nice glassy face and riding it out all the way to end..not taking one second of it for granted..There is no past, no future, there is only that one moment and in it, everything is perfect.

yep... consciousness like a standing waveform, a dynamic pattern arising from the unity of the life processes.. An emergent property of complex systems

whatever it is, its awe-inspiring

A well fleshed out and valid position on consciousness burnt. Yes you and I have had this discussion on a number of different threads. Your position makes sense, and could quite likely be the way it is. As you know, I happen to disagree with you, and here's why.

Going back to Ken Wilbur (sorry, been using him alot as I recently read a couple books of his and they seated concepts well in my mind), and tying in nicely with what Citta said above, we find that we are just one system in an ocean of different and interconnected systems. How do we separate ourselves in the cosmic melange, when our atoms, molecules, bodies, species, planet, solar system represent one layer upon another, one system interating with another?

Our existence seems to be made up of different systems that transcend and include eachother in ever greater expressions of complexity.

Atoms transcend and include quarks
Molecules transcend and include Atoms
Cells transcend and include Molecules
Organisims transcend and include Cells
.
..
...

New levels of organization come into being with unique properties, which cannot be boiled down to their constituent parts. A new level of being has been created, a new level of awareness/consciousness of how the universe is constructed. The previous level has been transcended, yet those of that level are included in the new form. Transcends and includes. If you destroy a rung on this ladder, all "higher" organization fall apart, but all "lower" stay the same. For instance, say you destroyed all the cells in the universe, then everything that is organized by cells would also be destroyed, but you would still have atoms and molecules.

Wholes depend upon parts, but not the other way around.

This is evolution, whose basic drive is to increase depth. This is the self transcending drive of the Universe, to go beyond what came before, yet to include what went before, and thus increase its own depth. Each level has its own depth which increases as complexity increases. Therefore molecules have more depth than atoms, cells more than molecules, plants more than cells, primates more than plants, etc...

Consciousness is what depth looks like from the inside of a system. At each level, consciousness realizes itself more and more, comes into manifestation more and more. It is the emergent property of the universe. Since every level has some sort of depth, every level has some form of consciousness.

Yes! I like that description..
So now think of this waveform as a species...every species has something that preceeds it, an ancestor, and that ancestor has ancestors etc..basic evolution..

So what is that atoms and molecules etc have that are like the ancestors of conciousness?...This is the best way I can relate to what saidin is saying here..becasue I know that most people think of conciousness as it arises in higher animals..

I have to think of it that way..that is the only way that it works for me..you canot talk about evolution ONLY in the sense of biological evolution..the theory applies everywhere..so even conciousness must have a something akin to a relative in lower states of complexity..

yeah thats right, so we come to the realization that EVERYTHING is conscious or alive, which is certainly true at least to some extent... But then again there IS a difference between what we usually call life and other things, so what IS that difference? (I ask because I also dont know... Its hard to define)

yes that seems to be the real question..

Aye, that is a good and valid question!

Consciousness and Life...

Perhaps life begins when consciousness coalesces enough of itself to begin what biologists would consider life, and then further evolves from there. Life becomes an emergent property of the universe, as well as an evolution toward greater consciousness. The levels of complexity go up and down the scale infintely.

heavy

ya this is getting more and more interesting..will have to post more later..off to work to roof

So I was laying there last night in usual fasion..sort of peering into hyperspace, wndering where the heck it fits in?..what is hyperspace?..

How does it relate to conciousness?..it always feels to me like hyperspace IS conciousness..like it's build from it..it can't come into being without it..

There seems to be alot of information there that is directily related to biological life..now I dont really know what I am saying here..but even if hyperspace stems from neurological activity..what does that really say about it?

Everything has something else at it's core that "births" it..just as atoms for molecules, and those molecules from biological lifeforms..and so if conciousness(human conciousness) is a standing waveform that is an immergent property of a complex system..than when and where does hyperspace fit in/come into being?

What hyperspace seems to be for me (note: seems) is an infinite source of information. Where all information comes from, really. And that everything in existence is connected to each other through the consciousness of the mind. But if that is a truth, and not just a feeling created in my mind because I am tripping balls I don't really know. But nevertheless, the feeling of importance while being in there is so great, so profound. It shivers through my body and mind, and it is so real, so authentic...

I'm a devout atheist, and because of that I just dont like the word spirituality. It simply implies that there is something "supernatural" going on that science can never explain, because it is 'magic' or whatever.
I see what you are saying though, every time I open a textbook or look into a microscope I am just awestruck by the complexity and beauty of nature in its raw natural form.

To sum up, spirituality and science should never mix, spirituality is something that people may be allowed to 'believe in', but it should never influence a person's decision making abilities or the lives of others. From my point of view, in this day and age, religion causes more problems than it solves.
Thats my 5 cents.

yeah... I never linked spiritual with supernatural.

Everyone has a spirit. No matter how crushed.

What exactly do you mean by spirit?
Like in the context of 'he has a great fighting spirit!'
or in the context of 'when we die our spirits go do heaven!'
?
I love how people use the word spirits all the time, but when you ask them why they believe that they do have a spirit (even non-religious people) their like uuuuh. I dont know.
And i was guilty of that.

I believe your spirit is what you truly are within. Opposed to a personality which is who you are on the outside.

thats something ive been thinking about lately while on psychedelics. when (or how) does "I" become "ME". I'm sure that I am not me. "I" has a purpose but "ME" doesn't know what it is. only when the 2 meet does thought actually construct something with answers.

This is why science and spirituality clash. There are no set definitions for things like spirits, they shift from person to person and they can't really rationalise or justify what they are to any detail or how they work. Science deals with measurable data and spirituality deals with fairly vague ideas, definitely not something you can measure if every person gives you a different definition.

I think you answered your own question there.
Hyperspace is a result of you being conscious, therefore your brain created it.
What does that say about it? - It says that it is a hallucination, likely created by over stimulation of serotonin receptors.
It is an attempt for your mind to process why there is excess & different chemical profiles in the brain, causing stimuli to appear different. It also lights up the limbic system which makes it seem more profound and meaningful.
hope thats what you were talking about. Just keepin it real.

Well yeah I agree..but what does that really mean?

All that says is that something comes from something..like anything else..

You can just as easily say that conciousness is like some sort of hallucination becasue it is generated by something of a lower order..but that doesnt mean it doesnt have a a use or "purpose"..

Hyperspcace to me is like that..it's on a higher level than our conciousness..but to me the scientific description of it doesnt have to be at odds with that..all it really says is, "hey look these things you are experiencing are generated over here"..yet it's there all the same.

Perhaps this is a good time to brings up morphogenetic fields, and morphic reasonance..search for rupert sheldrake if unfamiliar with..

What do you guys think about it?..is it possible that hyperspace has something to do with morphic fields?

I think the last 2500 years of Buddhist Philosophy would disagree about the vagueness of those ideas. But you are correct, there appears to be no solid definition of the term among those who talk about it.