Of course plants can get 'stressed'. Of course they release chemical signals upon wounding and metabolic pathways change to respond to pathogens. But that is NOT the same as 'feeling pain'. I know this for a FACT.

They have been able to prove that animals like fish and mammals feel pain like we do. There is a huge difference between this an whats happening in plants. If you don't see that you really don't understand physiology plant or animal. Back to the biology lessons folks.



Spiritually dead? Westerners have loads of absurd spiritual beliefs just like indigenous people. Who cares if you take a plant and smoke it? Honestly you people are being way to touchy feely over this.

I slice up and torture plants everyday at my work. Its great fun. They don't care. They aren't self aware enough to care. They respond for sure and we can prove how and why and when they respond. But they are not feeling pain I assure you.

I feel anything that is alive has its own experience, I dont think that we should measure or gauge an experience that we havent experienced. Plants have their own way of feeling things just because it is different from our own way of feeling things doesnt mean their experience of life is of any less worth.

We should respect and treasure life in all its forms no matter how small. I eat plants because they are gifts from the earth and one of the most respectful actions you can do is to let the plant nourish you with knowledge or with food.

All animals are my friends so I cant eat my friends now can i.


Much Peace and Understanding

Very well said. For all we know, plants could have a more well developed consciousness than we do. Humans don't know the limit of what's actually possible, but often think they do. We don't know what makes consciousness. There are a bunch of theories about it and that's all.

I know someone reading this thread is going to go on about how certain parts of the brain are responsible for human consciousness, and all, but don't be fooled, science does not yet know what actually makes us conscious and not simply reactive organic robots. It's a complete mystery to humans.

69ron

Why thank you, I am greatly honored that you think so. Maybe no one can pin point where consciousness stems from because it has always existed in some way or form? Just a thought...

Much Peace and Sunshine

If you let someone cut open your head and damage certain parts of your brain certain parts of your consciousness will be deleted for the rest of your life. These are facts. And ron you are trying to say there is no evidence the brain has anything to do with making consciousness? How do you explain that then?



Not a conscious experience. What about virus's? Are they even alive? What about prions? Do they have their own experience? If they do then what about hydrogen atoms? I mean we can go down and down until it becomes completely meaningless the definition between conscious and no conscious. Theres a reason the two words exist because they describe two different kinds of things.

Of course, that is how we work.

Plants are on another level of space/time....look at them in fast forward (and listen)
also look at them in hyperspace, and look at hyperspace...
Consciousness is omnipervasive and emanating from all dense molecular structures charged with life.
Our brain is a hub, but we think with our entire body.

By expressing parameters, personality emerges. (THIS is what I consider Spirit. Ex: Pedro's spirit's wise, gentle, warm, etc. and yes of course it's all chemical, what isn't?(((bumpin'elementalfunk)))


The detail is magnified by the density.

Burnt

As I specified anything which is alive has its own experience in its own way, just my opinion. : b

Much Peace and Happiness

I'm fine with the idea that we are just reactive organic robots. Unpredictable and complex ones, but robots all the same.

Your mind exists in your brain. Any other interpretation will need strong evidence to convince me.

IF this were true, I would never be able to look down on myself and everyone around me from up above. (OBE)
Is my brain hovering above me ~20' away? Of course it isn't...
and this consciousness stuff is like a network we are all connected to
whether you like it or not

I've had many experiences make it blatantly obvious how connected we all are by this seemingly technological scaffolding, and the spice seems to shed light on it's operation.

Could you explain this please. Its not a matter of liking something. I like you a lot we are friends but I can not understand what this proves or implies. The experience of one person is not proof of anything nor does it disprove it is simply irrelevant until more information is known. I do not discount your experience it is personal and has meaning to you and is most certainly valid on a personal level.

I do not see that it applies to every body's else's reality or the working of the physical universe others perceive. It is just your experance not the word of God

Peace
MV

Until more information is known, I provide subjective experiences for the Nexus.
Every one of us reveal the whole. We art one.

No one has given any proof of what consciousness is. As expected, just a lot of theories.

Answer this: why do I experience the world from within my mind. Why not just be a reactive robot made of organic material. Why do I even feel that I am? Why do I exist from behind my eyes and ears?

If you think you can answer that you have no idea what the question even asks. No one can answer that with certainty because no one knows what makes people feel they exist. No one. We are not simply machines that react to our environments. We feel that we exist. This is something that goes far beyond just feeling and thinking. This is consciousness and it's a mystery.

If you cut off my eyes, my ears, my mouth, and even parts of my brain, I still feel that I exist. Even people in a coma can feel that they exist. Feeling that you exist from a central point within is a complete mystery. Those few people on this forum that think science knows what consciousness is honestly do not know science well at all. It's been a scientific mystery from day one and remains a mystery.

69ron

We are all here for a reason. Entheogens, spice, meditation and compassion are helping me to solve my mystery of being.


Much Peace and Happiness

Ron: I agree that what makes us 'feel' instead of just respond is not known. Although I think evolutionarily it makes sense that feeling instead of just responding like an organic robot is a more powerful tool at getting conscious organisms to care about themselves and breed.

However its clear that the brain is intimately involved in this process of 'feeling' because aspects of feeling and consciousness are controlled by the brain. You can't avoid that there is so much evidence for this. Ron your argument that we don't know what makes us "feel" does not refute these statements. Pain perception is controlled by the brain/body working together. Some organisms simply don't have this machinary and evolved completely different mechanisms to respond to pathogens and wounding etc. Plants biochemical machinery does not require it to 'feel'. 'Feeling' takes up a lot of energy and if its not necessary for a sessile organism like a plant to feel it won't waste so much energy on a process.

Trying to ascribe human like qualities to plants is misleading, although I know thats not what you or aegle are saying.

For mammals the situation is totally different. We need to move around and recognize sharp things recognize hot things etc etc we need to 'feel' to help survive.

Aegle: Sure plants have their own experience and life. But its very different and hard to imagine whats its like to be alive and not conscious. We as humans can't imagine what that's like. I just don't think they are not conscious and self aware in the way that we and other mammals are. That's all I am really saying.



I just don't see why I should assume that organisms with no brain no kind of nervous system and no conscious traits are conscious and feel pain etc when all organisms that do feel pain (mammals and other animals like fish etc) all have a similar kind of pain perception machinery as humans?

BTW I love plants and all life so I am not trying to downplay life. Everything I've learned about biology and working with many kinds of organisms puts me in awe. Not at creation or some kind of intelligence behind it all but awe in the power of evolution. Awe that so much could come from such simple beginnings. Maybe thats just me though but I certainly don't think an evolutionary approach downplays life. To me it shows lifes magnificance.

Burnt

Indeed I agree plants cant have human like qualities because they work completely differently to the way that we do. But saying that anything which is alive has its own experience of life and should be respected and treasured.

I have such a great admiration for the beautiful simplicity in the way that nature works. We are all part of this great wonder of life, I am left in compete awe by the small gifts that we are given each day whether its a sunset or a gentle rain.

Everyday I am grateful to experience life in all its grandeur...


Much Peace and Sunshine

^^Well put.

yeah totally, that sums it all up

Burnt

Thank you, you are to kind. Im just speaking from what is in my heart and my mind. Again thank you for your kind words...


Much Peace and Compassion

Fractal Enchantment

Im honored that you think I have summed it all up...thank you so very much for saying so.


Much Peace and Sunshine

My humble opinion is that complex biological systems arrange themselves into dense pockets of organization, this organization gives way to a system of information. Plants, when viewed as a species, can precisely fit the definition of intelligence. It is not absurd to think that these complex, LIVING, systems have developed ways of communicating with humans. They communicate with animals in a variety of ways. Why should we be any different?

Who are we to say, even with all our advances in science, that the biological systems of Earth aren't conscious? We have only been aware of geological time for a few hundred years. They CAN learn, meaning they can learn about humans because of our interactions over long periods of time. Wouldn't that be similar to experiencing the presence of and effects of Human Beings? Of course we call the intelligence we encounter "spirits"! What better terms do we have? Plant dwelling root bark people? For me, "spirit" is TRUE ENOUGH for the time being! Is it a coincidence that after ingesting plant based hallucinogens, that many people come out with a deep respect and concern for nature in general? I don't think so.

Every argument for the brain generating the full spectrum of my consciousness has been at best entertaining. Science can't say anything about love. You couldn't give me a set of conditions to adhere to that will make a girl fall in love with me every single time I try to woo a female (although some might argue wiht me on that one). Don't get me wrong I love science, it is great for observing and explaining physical phenomena. I didn't have time to read the whole thread, so I hope I'm not beating around the bush. Burnt, you are really smart and honestly, it is your postings that strike doubt into some of my beliefs, which is what EVERYONE needs, because when you believe something with absolute certainty you have given up a portion of your mind's freedom.

-Codfert