I wanted to start this thread to discuss in what ways the science people can spiritual people can come together in agreement..

I have alot of respect for the scientists here..I have always enjoyed science and biology my whole life..whenever people asked me what i wanted to be when I was in school my anser was always marine biologist..I even took extra credit classes at the vancouver aquarium and was a volunteer for a while as a teenager..

Physics has always interested me as well..especially theororeticl physics..

But I also hold a spiritual view on life, and am really into philosophy..but I am so big on weird and out there new age theories and whatnot(been there done that)..I guess I like more down to earth spirituality..

Sometimes I might sound out there by things i say but it's becasue I like poetry and using metaphore to describe thing more..if you know what I mean..

I think that science can tell us alot and is something that does alot of good for us..

I also feel that the more I learn about science the more I feel that everything is so amazing like one big damn miracle..like it's a shot in the dark that anything like this can happen and yet, here it is..

This is not about god, or religion what I am talking about..or reincarnation or things like that..but here and now spirituality..

Alot of science people talk about how spirituality isnt "real" because of science etc..but I dunno I really think that people get the term mixed up with "religion"..spirituality to me is more way of relating to the world around you..reguardless of the facts of the matter..I accept science..but it does not make this jouney here feel any less special.

I know that there are alot of down to earth spiritual people here on these forums, and that there are also also of respectable scientists..and I dont really think that there necessarily needs to be a clash of logic between them..It's hard to put into words what I am trying to say, but I sort of think that what I am getting at is something close to alchemy..when you have science and real down to earth spirituality together, you know?..

I would really like to hear from both sides on this..do the scienctists ever feel spiritual(apart from religous associations of the word)?..and do the spiritual people accpet science as a valid path to understanding the universe?..do you people think that the two can find some sort of common ground?..again I want to make the distinction between spiritual and religous..I am NOT talking abotu dogmatic beliefs here..or things like some sort of afterlife spirit..I am using term as a way to relate to things here and now..

I dont really have a creator god at all..other than just everything..everything just is to me..so I can accept technology and science and feel ok where it is taking us..no ammount of scientific discovery will change the way I feel about life and the miracle that anything happens at all..yet I dont discredit science at all either..it's facinating really.

Science to me is very spiritual, because nothing is more beautiful and inspiring than what is here and now.

That's my kind of holy

^ yes exactly thats how I feel..

I am fine with the thought that this life might be it for me as well..that there is no after life for the me that I am now..taking psychedelics I think has made me be able to accpet the fact that I might just die and become dirt that feeds the worms and plants etc and be recycles into many other things..my eneergy will leave me and disperse and migrate through the planet taking many different forms..I sort of think that's beautiful and even that can be spiritual to me..and also maked this life here seem so damn precious and sacred for what it is..

Hell yes.

I'm not anti-religous in that I don't know how the truth lies one way or the other. But I dislike the afterlife obsession because it holds to the fact that the here and now isn't the true holy place that it is. This is how science is winning the race for myself albeit in a loose sense of the phrase, but if everyone followed science over religion we'd all realise that this is the best and only place we will ever exist. We'd be truly fascinated by what was, is and will be occurring to our known reality and appreciate how lucky we are to be a part of it... yeah like fractal said but in my words

well I don't know about the terms here... it seems to me that the easiest way is to simply realise that there isn't 2 different types of people in the world... in my view, sicence and spirituality is not what seperates these people... it really is just a matter of terminology, science is a set of a defined, organised terms, it's a way of describing things to others, science is a group minded thing with people collborating on a goal... spirituality is a more vague, personal revelation that is unclear to everyone else... that's not to undermine it. I mean you're saying you see spirituality as a way of relating to the world around you, but I see spirituality as relating to religion, to me understanding the world around me helps me relate to it much better... I belive we're all scientists and we all appreciate the universe in some "spiritual" sense, but you can't blaim the science folk for questioning what exactly you mean by spirtitual because the term seems to mean something different to everyone.

I think the "spiritual" folk (again I think these buckets are absurd) need to evaluate what it is exactly we think science people don't feel... "spiritual" folk seem to think the science folk are missing something important, and the dogmatic scientists probably are, but you'd be hard pressed to find a spiritual person who can actually explain what that is... don't forget you have dogmatic spiritualists that are equally oblvious to the scientific wonderment of the universe which I would argue blows any new-age idea out of the water... but the point I'm really trying to make is that science should be and is done by everyone, and that everyone has a "spiritual" side... people that are "spiritual" do science all the time... what's really wrong here is the absurd notion of one vs the other.... what we're really talking about is that different people have different levels of "faith", some people won't believe anything until they see it with their own eyes (dogmatic scientist), some people risk everything on a sentence in an ancient book (dogmatic spiritualist).. but I would argue both these people possess a scientific and a spiritual side, it's what makes us human after all.

"again I think these buckets are absurd"
"what's really wrong here is the absurd notion of one vs the other"

..Well yes that was the whole point of this thread! Obviousily I have to write it out with these lables though so people can understnd what it is I am trying to say.. I am using these terms becasue this is how it presents itself in so many other threads here already..

just the thread title suggests they don't meet already... to be clear I actually think "spirituality" is just a imaginary subset of science that deals specifically but not exclusively with the unknown... same as religion, again not to undermine anything.

Yeah, I understand they've become the popular classifications, but they suggest a kind of comparison between the two and thats the irritating part of the classes... perhaps spiritual and non-spiritual better terms, because I think science is done by both.

Ok well I mean you can just insert whatever word works for you then for what I am referring to...it doesnt really matter if you associate it with religion or unknown science I made it quite clear that is NOT what I am talking about..
Maybe the thread title should be where DO spirituality and science meet? I think it's obvious from my post that I dont think that they dont already meet..I wouldnt be making this thread if I thought that!

I'd rather you inserted the words for what you are talking about... the body of my response was about the vagueness of what is meant by spiritual, my argument is that it's a vague, personal thing, I literally have no idea what your sense of spiritual here is, it's like you want me to read your mind... Again, we all know what is meant by science, we're completely unclear what is meant by spiritual...

To be clear, I already made the point that I don't believe spirtituality is relating to the world around you, that to me is science... and I wasn't commenting on what you think spirituality is, I was talking about the classic spiritualist..

spirituality to me is about living free in the here and the now without dogma, and aknowledging the utter mystery and preciousness of what we have right now..that life IS something amazing and that makes is sacred for what it is in the moment.

OK.. well I accept that, but your view of spirituality is different than the next man's, the classical view of spirituality has to lie outside of science... as I said this is personal idea of what it is. I'm still a little unclear about what this means though, sorry... how does this differ at all from a scientific viewpoint... I mean you're saying, these world's don't meet, but your idea of spirituality is something that is felt by [i would say] most scientists.... I don't think you even need spirituality to possess these virtues.. so I'm still looking for the point of seperation.... where does it differ from science? how are these worlds not meeting? I mean you don't think I feel the exact same way? there is nothing spiritual about that idea. I'm sorry I'm just trying to undersrtand..

I know you're not coming from a religous viewpoint... I would like to know what viewpoint you're coming from that is not science already.

I liked the part about being non-dogma but that's the middle ground, not the spiritual side in the classic sense... I just don't see the need for the word spiritual if thats how you feel.

If you agree like I do that the terms are poorly utilised, then you've got to understand that to use those terms to describe spiritualism against science, then it's like saying scientists don't possess those virtues. Don't get me wrong, I get the sense you don't mean that.

On the subject, don't forget scientists are not supposed to be dogmatic, if you're a dogmatic scientist, then you're not even a proper scientist, because science is all about the unknown and keeping an open mind... I think a lot of the confusion here between the 2 camps is the dogmatics in both camps and neither are valid... if a person doesn't believe in evolution in the face of overwelming evidence, they're crazy, if they think theres nothing more to life, literally, then they're also crazy... of course theres more to life, but thats all available to science as well.

Dogmatic scientists and dogmatic spiritualists don't meet at all, but the non-dogmatics to me are completely the same and I see no need for differentiation. Why I went directly for religion is because it's inherentently a dogmatic form of spiritualism...

Fractal Enchantment

This is an awesome thread, I have also noticed a bit of a divide between the more spiritual minded people and the more scientific minded people. It would be great for everyone to come togeather.

I think im a bit of a paradox as I am a deeply spiritual person but I always analyze and question everything. Every concept and every thought that I come aross I question, I will never believe anything blindly.

I view my spiritual journey in the way that I am a scientist of the heart and the mind. Im not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination.

Spirituality for me is basically just searching for something deeper and unknown which in fact science searches for the unknown and tries to find a way to explain it. I try to feel the unknown and explain it, this is the only difference I guess.

Again I hope that everyone can come togeather on this one, instead of creating a divide. Is that not what religion trys to do, hence why one of the reasons why im not religious. I dont believe in creating divides...


Much Peace and Happiness

I think you will find a lot of spiritual scientists out there, but you also find people putting their faith in obviously faulty scams and then feeling burned when someone uses a little science to explain why things don't work that way. I guess its more important people hold onto reality than sometimes dangerous fantasy, especially when it comes to things like cancer treatments. Don't gamble with peoples lives to make a few $$ from a bullshit device.

What it means to be spiritual varies from person to person. I bet one person means this and that about being spiritual which is absolutely not spiritual for another. It's all about perspective. So there is no need to put science and spirituality up against each other, unless you've totally lost your reality card and believe in total bullshit (e.g curing cancer with magic energy flowing out of the fingertips). And this shouldn't be associated with spirituality, because believing stuff like that is madness, spirituality is not madness just as science is not madness. They are perspectives, each with value, and they can go side by side if you just don't lock yourself up in your own mind.

When people identify themselves with either of these things they seem to get hostile towards the other, so stop belonging to either. Use them as tools for yourself, use them to identify yourself with this magnificent thing we're part of. Listen and learn from both of them, but don't get locked up in it. Always listen and learn. This is what makes a scientist a real and authentic scientist, as he is always staying open minded, wondering, questioning, searching, listening, watching and learning. This is also what a truly rational and authentic spiritual person should do in my opinion. This is what we should all do =)

So you see, they don't really contradict, you are making it so. Stop creating dualities, it creates hostility, it is not necessary. Because if you do, well then you will not learn, right? Read about science, read about the great discoveries, read about spirituality, about philosophy, psychology, everything. It's all part of the human condition in which we find ourselves. Be human, don't be spiritual, don't be scientific, don't be religious. Go with it, cus life can be so magical, so mysterious and so wonderful. And this is all you need to really feel, and anyone can feel this, it doesn't matter if you are a scientist or a spiritual person or both. Life and existence is there, here, now. And that is all it is...

I am not spiritual, I am not scientific, these are just terms and perspectives. What I really am is human. I belong to humanity, and to belong to humanity is to belong to everything else, to belong to what is. And I find great value in being human, it is a great journey for me, and I learn all the time. I learn through science, I get interesting ideas through philosophy, I have interesting experiences when altering my brain chemistry, I learn through discussions, I learn through being with people, I listen to life...

Spirituality and science can meet wherever and whenever you want them to. For me they meet at a point which we all share, and that is to be human =)

To me the two already co-exist. You cannot have one without the other, they are both important components that make up the reality we experience.

For me, spirituality belongs mostly in the "I" experience of existence. It is my consciousness, my self, my self-expression, my true nature. It has to do with how my life expresses itself.

For me, science falls into the "It" experience of existence. It is science and technology, empirical form, objective nature, physical and social systems. It is the world of objective truth where the laws of nature can be quantified.

The It allows me to function as the I. The I is there to find meaning(truth)in the It. They are separate yet the same, intertwined.

They are the When(Now) and the How. Both sides are looking for the Why, and since we are both part of the same system, cooperation and mutual understanding benefits both sides.

I really find most of this pretty decent as a unification of the things we're talking about, so well done on that, although maybe it goes places I wouldn't go, towards the end .... I definitely share your view that to have a spiritual side is the "I" and the science is the "it", sure, I can agree with that.... I mean you've recongised that the 2 concepts are not mutally exclusive and subject to comparison anyway.... but on the subject of the 2 worlds meeting, I think it's the clarification of these terms that are important... once people stop misusing these concepts (i'm not saying anybody here has), I think we'll be better off... for example, spirituality perhaps shouldn't be associated at all with religion then, to me it seems like the concept of spirituality has actually been hijacked by the church and they want people to lump both the spiritual world you speak of with the spiritual world religion speaks of.. also when I think "spiritual" I cant shake the notion of the "spiritulists", the american religion that kicked off the whole confusion...

Personally I think science is much more structured in this respect, not as vague, and again using your terms, surely "I" am part of "IT"... so science is the overall concept and don't forget you can invent new branches of science, there are many scientists that study the "I". Also there aren't as many dogmatic scientists (bad-scientists) as there as dogmatic spiritualists (religion).

great posts guys! I like where this is all going..I will post more later when I have more time.

Spirituality before Science.
Science is just the tool to things.
Spiritualitiy is the tool to reality.

Because reality is always interconnected with yourself.
Science is something people do.
Spirituality is the "IS"ness of you and reality.

MR DMT Fractal posted this as a debate and here you are polluting the form with your NONSENSE. PROVE YOUR BS AND SHOW ME SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN HEALED!

MR DMT You are indeed a TROLL who does not know the MEANING of DEBATE.
Do you have a problem understanding the English Language?

You are very disruptive and contribute very little of value.

You are a insult to all truly sincere people with Spiritual beliefs.

Fractal please do not think I discount your beliefs I respect your point of view and you have been a great contributor to interesting discourse here at the Nexus. I say the same to many others here.

Science and Spirituality are already merging. I do consider my self a spiritual person as well as a knowledge seeker not in the fundamental sense because fundamentalism is DEAD. Truth is continually reborn as we sweep away the fallacies of the past to reach our full potential.

I am Glad MR DMT was not around in the Days of the Christian Crusades he would likely be such a person that would blindly murder innocent people in large numbers in the name of his Beliefs.



Peace
MV