http://www.13moon.com/prophecy%20page.htm
interesting site.

[quote=burnt]"Yes I guess the reason I often result to finally saying its all BS is because when you really understand the natural world to the limits that we know this stuff isn't even worth considering because its so far off from how we know things work. Most people aren't convinced by that argument because they haven't spent years of their life learning about the natural sciences."



I think this is a true statement for my position at least. I would not have put it so firmly because my official limited education consists of electronics/telecommunications. So you could say I am not qualified to enter the argument because I am not a scientist.

My current opinion is based on reading hundreds of books on esoteric subjects as well as hard science. I have been studying world religions,shamanism, ect as well as physics,biology,psychology on my own since I was a teen. I have managed to land a few VERY interesting jobs that allowed me to work with scientists and technology that were far beyond what I could have dreamed of with my limited education.

The information I have been presented with is what has formed my current opinion that is always subject to change with new facts. I have not chosen to believe in a certain manner. Information and logic have dictated my opinions they are not my construction. I must be honest with my self above all else or personal growth of any type can not occur in my view.

Its a long time to 2012 these debates are beginning to make me a bit insane possibly that will be the event that will take place.
Twenty five percent of the world population will go starke raving mad. It will be up to the remaining seventy five percent to rebuild human culture after the apocalypse.

The way things are going that may be the necessary evil to get humanity back on track.

I am surprised no one has brought up the assumption that some historians have about the Mayan Calendar that it is not just a calendar based on time and astrological movements but is also a calendar of human conciseness. There is a very long lecture on the net I watched some time ago that goes into this. I will see if I can find it and post it. Of course it pretty far out but I found it very interesting.


PEACE
MV

http://www.youtube.com/w...JZG8&feature=related

Listen to Dennis..he makes some sense here..

Yes its a repackaging of Christian BS. The old end of the world doom and eternal damnation threat the folly of fools no matter how well meaning they may be it is time we stop HUMORING these beleifes they are dangerous and irresponsible . GET responsible for your own life. Quit sucking on the BS bottle of intellectual infancy.
Its time for humans to grow up and that requires big change. The immaturity and irresponsibility of many well meaning humans blows my mind to little pieces.

I am sure many of you can see little bits of my brain matter floating about now.

Purposeful Ignorance for any reason is a very evil and dangerous thing not in its own sense, it becomes so after things are know and the truth is still refused. Innocent ignorance is a natural beginning for all. Learning is the only thing that will save humanity or prolong its existence.

Peace
MV

Nice interview with D McKenna. I am glad he was honest and straight forward about the myth.

See!!! 2012 is a myth!

Fractal Enchantment

Brilliant link, i completely agree with what Dennis is saying here. He makes complete sense...


Much Peace and Compassion

I really like Dennis' perspective. i can just imagine those two brothers down in the amazon, Dennis smashing watches....

note also;
he says in the interview that he DOES believe in the alignment, ---- "it is built into celestial mechanics, these conjunctions will take place, no doubt about it" ---- just that he doesn't think anything spectacular will occur because of it.




so what is the myth? that the mayan calendar ends?; that there happens to be a extremely rare astrological alignment at the same time?; or that we are going to transcend matter and enter the imagination?

All he is saying that yes there is procession the earth does go up and down over the galactic center (although this point is somewhat arbitrary). Anyone who denies that is denying a basic fact of how things move in our galaxy.



The myth is 1. the earth will end 2. something major will change in peoples consciousness and make the world a better place.

Those are the general "myths" associated with 2012. The first is fear mongering at its worst and highly absurd, but don't you think the second his highly possible if not necessairly probable? I can think of several things that could happen off the top of my head that would make #2 true.

In fact my consciousness has already majorly changed over the last year and I am attempting to make the world a better place. The change is already happening, it just hasn't caught up to everyone its meant to yet. Just like a bell curve, some get it on the way up, most at the top of the bell, and some will get it on the way down or not at all.

I agree with Dennis Mckenna where he says that he thinks Terrence was right with his idea about complexity and how technological progress is speeding up and that it will end up changing things..but I also agree that we will wake up on dec 21 2012 and it will look the same as it did on dec 20 2012...this thing I am talking about is gradual and already happening.

This is why I think we would get more out of this conversation if we focussed on the more tangible things like technology and culture..technology WILL change culture..it always does. It is no secret that technological advancement is happening much faster now than it ever has, and that is only increasing...I bet that in 20 years from now our culture will have changed more becasue of new technologies than it has in the last 80-100 years..these are things people could not have said 200 years ago..so that does say something about the times we are living in.

Doesnt mean the world will end though. I also believe what Dennis says about alot of this 2012 stuff just sort of promoting irresponcibility..I think that maybe things could change for the better in the next 5 or 10 years..but it will take real work..

also things like the ozone hole, the dying oceans, melting ice caps, climate change..moon landing etc..these all things of this century..way bigger and more significant on a global scale than most things in all the ther centuries..so there is SOMETHING about the times we are living in.

There are so many reasons to leave out the 2012 horror stories etc and just look at the facts of out time..it's a very interesting time to walk the planet earth either way.

Well I guess I feel that the changes you guys are talking about have more to do with technological innovation in communications as well as a growing population. More people are more aware of more stuff and each other then EVER before in human history. This will definitely have and already is having a major impact on the world. But it has nothing to do with the normal cycles of our planet and solar system and everything to do with our species development.

but how can you be sure? people have felt connections to this type of thing for millennia. what has science offered that says anything different?
if we came from the stars, wouldn't that mean that we have a relationship to the cosmos? i just dont see the disconnect.

I definatily think that certain solar events effect us..how could they not? just as peoples bones get brittle in the winter and people get more sickness when it's cold and damp out..and allergy seasons, the moons effect on tides etc..these types of connection must extend farther out that we currently understand.

Doesnt mean I put any faith in newpaper horoscopes and things like that..way way to generalized..but I do think certain things out there effect us..maybe not to the same degree as things here on earth..

The atoms that make us up largely formed from the nuclear furnace of stars and super nova. That has nothing to do with astrological predictions however.

What about the alignment of stars would be significant enough to effect human consciousness to such a large extent? Gravity? Cosmic rays? If that were so we would already have noticed the evidence would be all around. But its not because it doesn't seem to have such a significant effect.



This is vague. The first things you mention yes they are true but we have explanations for all these things. There is no link nor explanation that the alignment of stars has anything to do with human behavoir.

yeah I wasnt referring to stars persay, more solar activity and lunar effects etc..maybe planetary as well..things closer to earth..these may be of minor concequence but I think that they can have some effect on us..maybe not to the extent as some people would like to think..

Cool I see what you mean and I agree. I don't mean to suggest that things in the sky have no effect on us. Even the weather can have a profound effect on peoples mood. When its rainy shitty and dark all the time many people get sad. When its sunny and warm many people get happy. There are reasons for these things. Circadian rythms all this stuff is real.

What I guess I am arguing against is myths like "when galactic alignment occurs the pineal gland will start to produce enough dmt to enlighten mankind". Stuff like.

They are all interwoven together. The internet is just the largest and most easily definable transition that is occuring, the rudimentary formation of our collective consciousness as a species. The more people are aware of things, the more likely and quicker change can occur. Ever increasting rate of novelty, and the change in consiousness is here. One can accept it, or not. But you will not be able to ingnore it forever.

It may not have anything to do with cycles of time, but it could also have everything to do with cycles of time. We could be at the culmination of a cycle where rapid change is the natural evolutionary drive to a new mode of being. Or the Maya, Hopi, Hindu, Egyptian, Celtic/Druidic, Judiac, Christian, African, Aborriginal, and other prophetic traditions could all be wrong.

You are correct, the awareness factor is the greate4st it has been in history, and this awareness just happens to coincide with numerous prophecies, both direct and indirect that point to this time in history. It could all be a giant coincidence that this increased awareness, quantum leap in technology/consciousness matches up with prophetic predictions in some cases thousands of years old. Or...it is also possible that, somehow, people in the past had insight into when this transition would manifest itself in our history. They point to this point we are living in now, and this is when something is happening. To specify a particular date when change will miracously happen instantaneously is misleading. It is the period around that date when the change will occur, lets say 5 years on either side of it, therefore 2007-2017 would be the period. I personally think the world of 2017 will be alient to us, as we would be to the world in 1750.

People who have made more than a cursory look into and subsequently seriously contemplated the clues left by many different traditions find the signs everywhere. They can feel the change brewing, it is a tangible feeling, hard to describe. Some are awake, many still slumber on the edge of awareness...

This assumes collective consciousness is a real thing. Personally I don't buy any of Jung's collective unconscious theories. I think they are deeply flawed.



All these cultures have vague prophecies about the future. None correspond to 2012 except the Mayan. But there is not evidence the Mayan's thought anything special would happen. There is NO evidence for that except what a few fringe scholars claim.

Why do you just automatically believe prophecies by all these cultures anyway? Some have completely obnoxious prophecies especially christian and jewish (both which have nothing to do with 2012). I don't know enough about the rest but I would never believe them. None of these people could predict the future no one can. If you have solid prophecies concerning this date show me the evidence. Show me the writing/artwork. Show me the scripture.



When you want to see signs everywhere you do see signs everywhere. Its just like conspiracy theories.

It's just like nearly everything else as well. Ever heard of the phrase "You see that which you are"? There is certaintly some truth to that. Something to keep in mind =)

As far as these 2012 prophecies goes I agree with burnt and fractal enchantment. But then again, we and all things have always been in change. This is nothing that has happened, or will happen, it is something that IS happening, and probably always has and always will in one way or the other.

Fair enough.

But if you are going to claim that what the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves...then it must apply to any tyoe of belief system, not just "conspiracy" ones.