"Why do humans tend to think we are here for any kind of reason?? Why would there have to be a reason? It seems that we are a product of the chemistry, life has been created in the lab ya know, would it have a purpose for exsiting also?"

Good question..Reason is something humans made up i think..there doesnt have to be any "reason"..but somehow it all happened..what does chemistry have to do with it?..chemistry seems to be something that is a part of it..but it comes after the fact..

when I hear peple make these kinds of arguements it's as if they are now worshipping chemistry..I undertand your point perfectly..but chemisty is what builds us..but what builds chemisty..why chemistry?..why not something else?..I dont even think there has to be a why..but there still could be..

Creating life in a lab doesnt really say much about what I am talking about..the potential for life already existed through chemistry and physics anyway, before we were here..we are just utilizing chemistry and physics..thats where science is good. Science can do alot for us..

Do you not think there is a point where the known laws of physics break down?..what about before the sopposed "bing bang"?..what about apparent black holes? doesnt mean there is supernatural things..I dont believ in the supernatural..I think everything has a natural explainating..we just dont understand it yet..but hat is not even really what i am talking about..

When you talk about chemistry and what not..that is workingwithina certain modality..becasue you still need to adress where chemistry came from..where physics came from(what birthed it, or proceeded it, differnt from reason or purpose)..if you want to think the laws of physics are the end all be all thats fine..but personally that makes no sense to me and seems just as silly as believing in the supernatural. havent you ever wondered about things like what the universe could have been like before the big bang..if it ever happened? The laws of physics they say became apparent while things were cooling down and properties were crystalizing out..at a time of higher temperature things were more "one"..

So if you entertain that idea for a second..than it seems quite clear that it's possible that the laws of physics..and everything that comes out of those laws..came after the fact..so why should the laws of physics be the farthest back thing to look upon for our origin, explaining everything?..and I am not talking about human origin..but the origin of everything.. if you really look at science for long enough this place starts to look like one big damn miracle, and that it is quite amazing in itself without the need of supernatural things..that is what I mean when I talk about spirituality..some scientists dont like to entertain ideas like spirtuality along with scientific thinking becasue they feel they loose objectivity..but is it healthy or even rational to attempt to ALWAYS be objective about every littel thing?..we do have a left brain AND right brain..probabily for good reason.

I know what you mean when you talk about people and the spirits of salvia etc..I talk liek that alot of the time as well..especially reguarding salvia..but when I say things liek that I am not necessarily talkingabout literal supernatural spirits..though I havent ruled it out..and I feel differently about it depending on which day you talk to me as well..becasuse I jsut dont know..i mean, have you ever smoked salvia? Seems a good enough metaphore for the experience at least.

Many days I think it's really about the way that people choose to approach these things, spirit or no spirit..

"are you reffering to spirit as matter?"

I guess you could say that...

Perhaps look at the real reason for asking the question, or even... where the question comes from. The truth is everywhere if only we could stop looking for it

Spirit or no spirit it doesnt matter... The plants are just less complex versions of us, everything comes from the same place, and its all heading in the same direction... Enjoy the ride instead of reacting to it.

Respect is one of those words that triggers no end of unconsious behavior

Ahh fuck it! I've been searching since i did my last post, i've found some potentials, but they didn't get to say much before others quickly smacked them down. Either way, its fine if you don't view the spirits of the plants as beings, but the point of this thread was to address the ones who did view them as beings.

I think enough has been said, i think everyone who would post here would agree that there is not a being attached to each plant which can have feeling and feel disrespected and take action.

I agree that these compounds are for inter-species communication between plants and Homo sapiens. Coatl, how can you communicate with a non-sentient being that is void of intelligence? These attributes are dependent on spirit not independant.




Using a sacred being as merely a means to justify the end product which is extracting their essence for your own recreational pleasure is a very sad thing like using a girlfriend/wife for sex. Contrast your approach to having a genuine friendship, and going to the plant as an apprentice, and you'll understand why shamans have infinitely superior medicinal, and spiritual (cap)abilities compared to you. To think that these sacred plants are not intelligent, sentient beings void of spirit is an extreme insult to them. You may respect their power but they are still essentially objects of interest AKA toys to you if you fail to see what they really are.



I agree completely.

hmmm... I must say this didnt come out too good...

when you compare extracting a plant with using your girlfriend for sex is a very off comparison, as well as saying that shamans are 'superior' to burnt or anyone else for that matter, is not a way of thinking I consider beneficial.

As for the comparison, youre completely denying that anybody can be respectful and yet extract and use the pure alkaloids, even if its a recreational act (you do know that fun is a healthy part of life, yes?).

I can say I REALLY respect these substances, they have changed my life completely, I try very hard to put lessons in practice and be as best as possible for those around me as well as for myself and my personal growth.. But I also a part of my use is for fun and relaxation and creative enhancing and pleasure and so on and so on.. This doesnt mean disrespect..

And as for this shamans being superior, well, when I read it just smacks of 'Holier Than Thou' attitude which I think is so problematic these days... Why cant we just feel that we are all better or worse in one aspect or another, and therefore we should step down of our pedestals together with our idols instead come down to sweep the floor and learn how to get along? I think we have to accept that there are different areas of development, and that sure maybe the shaman so-and-so knows about this-or-that plants or about the spirits in his context, but put an amazon shaman in the desert and see how longs he survives... Or in a city for that matter.. He knows about certain things in certain contexts, just like you me or burnt may know a lot about other things in other contexts..

If there's one 'spiritual' thing I've learned, then I have to say that it is that I should not judge others but rather should look at my own self, and try to be as best as possible, and not lecture on others on how they are not being spiritual or whatevr..

no offense to you, of course..

Ok first of all shamans don't have infinitely superious medical knowledge then myself. I am sorry but they don't and I am not even being arrogant here. I know tons of drugs that shamans probably don't even know exist and how they work. I'm not a practicing medical doctor but if a shaman thinks disease is caused by evil spirits (which many do) they are dead wrong and I know more then them. Disease is caused by pathogens. Some disease is caused by your own body but again its nothing to do with spirits. Many shamanic beliefs about disease and how to cure them are incorrect.

Also plants are not intelligent. They are biochemical machines. They have no thoughts and no mind. I spend all my days hacking up plants and extracting whats in them to discover new drugs that I hope will one day benefit human-kind. I enjoy it thoroughly hacking them to bits smashing them up with liquid nitrogen and pouring organic solvents over them. They don't scream, they don't bleed, they don't haunt me in my dreams.

Shamans use the same old drugs and the same old techniques that they have been using for hundreds of years and guess what? They can't cure half the diseases discovered by the methods used by modern science. Not even close. Why do you think infectious disease is still a huge problem in these jungle societies?

Your statement is simply incorrect and based on nothing factual.

its true for example shamans have faced a very problematic situation in the contacts with the westerners, with simple things like the flu for which they had no defenses against... MANY shamans have tried curing these people without success... So again this would show that people idealize shamans too much and try to take them out of their context thinking one can easily transport someone that lives in completely different linguistic, cultural, semantic and cognitive contexts without all the difficulties this obviously brings...

On the other hand, burnt, I think its also not correct of you to assume that you have more medical knowledge than them.. Sure you may know about some things that they dont but they also for sure know things that you dont, plants that can help in different things.. You very well know that companies have big interest in these different plant extracts and how many times a cultural/indigenous/local use of a certain plant or combination of plants unknown to the official circles ends up showing that it does have medicinal values.. So its possible there are many more things still unknown to us in this medicinal sense... But you are right that in many other aspects they have false knowledge and make mistakes and do not know of several to us simple things.

Its also important to remember that the shamanic function is not only medicinal in this more specific sense.. Also there is a lot of deeper work, psychological and emotional at least.... So there are other areas that one can learn from them

I think we have to accept that, shamans shouldnt be idealized, but they neither should be denied for being unscientific or not knowing some or other western-based knowledge because there's definitely a lot we can learn from them in other aspects.

True I concede on that and rescind my statement. I think its better if I say sometimes they lack the medical knowledge that we in western society take for granted.

I also agree that we do have things to learn from them especially in the psychological realm. I think that's one of the most obvious uses for psychedelics in general and its good to get ideas from people who use them in practice all the time. For example the ritual set up in shamanic ceremonies I think is very important to the healing aspect of the journey as opposed to a couch in a doctors office. They make nice music, they comfort the users, they do a lot that we could learn from in many of these regards.

^yeah I agree 100%..western medicine could be a lot more powerful if they integrated some other styles of practice that catered more to the comfort and pychology of the individual..people would feel more confident and taken care of.

How is my comparison off? How is it respectful to treat a fully conscious being as inferior to the extent of saying it is not conscious at all, and then consume its spiritual essence just for fun? You respect "the substance" and subsequently disrespect the being by stripping it of its dignity. Fun is healthy when it is not at the expense of another's humiliation or unjust mocking.





I was too generous with the word, 'infinite' pertaining to the superiority of a Shaman's wisdom, but I still maintain my stance. It is problematic for those (not, endlessness) who live for base pleasure to accept that a spiritual communion with God and all life is a holier way of living. Answer this simple question: What is a holy walk, spending one's life obsessing over ones cock fucking like a sex-crazed parasite or spending ones life seeking an enlightened state of consciousness pertaining to existence? Even you of the Church of Doubt must admit that there is a cave that Plato so eloquently spoke of.

The Shaman truly knows his forest like no westerner can, and he knows the medicine therein better than any western scientist in IMHO, because he is a fully conscious product of that environment. It would be the same if he were a Native American Shaman of the South West U.S. Again, my use of 'infinite' to describe the extent of physical medicine was too generous. The foreign diseases that Amazonian Shamans struggle with are a problem that is not endogenous to his area and so do present unknowns that the forest has never needed to explain. Foreign problems more often than not need a foreign solution. But as far as the psychological medicine that the Shaman gives it is not geography dependent because we all generate the same internal human conflict. I've never gone to a shrink, and if I ever felt the need for mental healing I would prefer the shamans spiritual healing over a poisonous drug (harmful antidepressants) dealing Shrink any day.



And by telling me this spiritual belief you are doing the very thing that you say not to do which is preach to/judge others. I have always been an extremely introspective person, but introspection is a very slow teacher without outside conflicting doctrine to compare and contrast to. I am open-minded in that my beliefs are not permanently carved in stone. They are fluid in that when I consciously have issue with another set of beliefs I examine both sides and weigh them on a scale of truth. If the other side is more logical, and the feeling is good it is out with the old and in with the new. The problem with most people is their beliefs are set in a cave of stone, and because their letters are carved in darkness they will never see themselves fully grown.

http://topdocumentaryfil...e-secret-life-of-plants/

Disciple, one might think he understands living in a consious and self aware state of mind. But stating absolutes and loading questions to prove another wrong show's that this may not be the case. Even 'seeking' consciousness is no different to a cock crazed animal who seeks pleasure.... By judging anothers unconscious bahaviour, one's self must also be unconscious

Wow, you say that as if you KNOW a plant is a being, how have you confirmed that? I can understand thinking of the possibility, but you do just the thing i can't stand, which is to claim something is truth with no way of confirming, that is unless you have confirmed it. And if so explain how.



I get the feeling you feel as if your better than others because of what you believe in, based on what you just said. What about me, i do not believe in god or enlightenment, but i do fully respect the world around me as well as everything which exists in it, to be honest though it may sound silly, i will even rescue bugs from drowning or gettin swept up while i'm cleaning, releasing the ones that get traped in my house so they may live longer. I also respect plants as in i only chop them down if i need them, and i really don't believe in plowing down forests. Its cool that you believe what you want, do what you want, but your no better than the ones you judge. You think someone has to have this holly walk to be a good person, and you preach it as you KNOW its the answer to life.




Are you aware that, that is an opinion you have, not a fact. I would think all humans have the same capabilities, to me thats kind of like saying black people aren't as smart as white people, completely ridiculous!




Are you not judging people now?? Are you not carving your opinions in stone, saying that people should be seeking enlightenment??

Absolutes have two modes, off and on, and where my words lay is where nature spawned.



Even a cock crazed animal is autonomous and can cut his own cock off spiritually and or physically. I am not judging others unconscious behavior, I am observing their observable behavior which they take great pleasure in observing themselves.



Yes, I have confirmation from personal experience. My personal experience has no real effect on your beliefs or anyone else for that matter unless the same is revealed through yours and others personal experience. Aside from that there is repeatable scientific evidence you just have to look hard. If you take the time to relax and watch the documentary I supplied link to you may gain something positive, or you may reinforce the negative. Either way I think it is very worth your time.



I believe in duality: Light & darkness, existence & non-existence, positive & negative, conscious & unconscious, love & hate, sin & no sin, here & there. I believe we were born from a dream that is between these dualities neither good or evil, neither here nor there and that dream is nature which is neutral. We ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (entheogens), and now we have a choice to embrace whatever we want, and walk wherever we walk. No, I am no better than others because without shadow there is no light and without them both there is no fight. I am full of belief, and so others such as yourself are full of unbelief. You can't have one without the other. I do the same with bugs, and plants, but why do you do so when not even mother nature is that kind? Again, because you are aware of what mother nature is not, and that is what the tree of knowledge has so beautifully taught. These are Gods of the plant kingdom.



I did not say white shaman did I? I said shaman, meaning race does not matter. Western science is spiritually dead that is why I believe Shamanism to be spiritually superior because it is spiritually alive. It is the duality again with opposites they attract, repel each other, rest, and again refract.



Yes, I am debating those that disgrace entheogens, and no I am not saying that people should seek enlightenment. If they did not spend their lives as a fucking infestation, and stroke themselves in arrogant ego exploitation I would not know where I ought to go...so I do have them to thank for helping me find my way.

I am only giving voice to your opposing side of the debate or did you not want an engaging discussion? I don't know about you but I am having fun. If you don't like what I say then please just read my signature and it will all go away.

over and over again you come talking as if you know whats Right and Wrong, who disrespects and who doesnt...

"Why do you squint at the splinter in your brother's eye, and fail to see the log in your own eye?"

Ill leave this discussion here, feel free to continue

I remember hearing about a study in which plants used pheromones to "think" or "communicate", I sure wish I could find it... It was a wonderful scientific paper!

its as if this thread was made in order to weazel out opinions then jump on them.... Not the sort of thing the nexus is renowned for. Whatever fleeting reward that is gained from this it will be very short lived, with nothing gained

Im tottteling off now, the vibes are hostile

"Wow, you say that as if you KNOW a plant is a being"

..Well, I KNOW that a plant is a being...when alive and growing though.. they respond to environmental fluxuations and strive to abtain what is "good" for their kind..there are trees that will release pheremones when being attacked by bugs for other trees to pick up on so that they can release toxins inthe leaves that the bugs wont touch..there is also some solid evidence that plants do indeed feel pain when branches are brocken etc..plants being "stressed" and growing slower is one example.

So yes I think plants are alive..and I try to respect the life that all my plants have..and am damn thankful for the sacrifices that plants go through so that humans can sustain themselves and alter themselves.. I dont pick leaves from my salvias anymore for one thing..I only take the leaves that fall off..that way they can grow they way they want to and I stll get to trip

That is different from a dried leaf or boiled up plant extract being a being..but you know what I mean.

Same goes for everything..animals I eat etc..I dont like the idea of cows and chickens suffering in inhumane conditions just so I can eat either..I think that shows a huge disrespect for life in gerneral..if you are truely thankful for the life you have been given than I think it is important to be respectful of the other lifeforms that we live alongside and live off of.

All that aside..I have had those trips where I realy feel a plant was for sure speaking to me..and all the ammount of chemical, psychological stuff doesnt seem to sway what I expereinced..but who knows.

Like mother aya..why do so many people see her?..and lady salvia? This I think is something worthy of discussing sinse so many people out there have the exact same experiences..if it were just psychological symbols and such personal subjective things than why do people experence aya as a female mother type being?..why the jungle iconography?.why the snake..the jaguar? Pedro as a male etc?..it does seem interesting.

Well, this is basicaly the deal. Not placeing blame on anyone of course, how could i? But i have always been into this spiritual stuff, believeing OBE's, Believeing PK, ghosts, enlightenment, telepathy, never god, but my own deffinition of what i thought of god as, and on and on. What fueled all this belief was stories i would read, Monks who can do this and that, all mystical, all magical. All stories as if they claim its solid truth, not idea, but solid truth, also the millions of shows that also cast all this belief onto people, all these "Myths", blah blah blah. So i get in heated battles to insist its real because of why? Because why would those people just make the stuff up, why would they lie or manipulate, what sense would that make? These are ideas or beliefs i have as an uneducated person, foolish enough to take people's words. As i steady argue with scientists and well educated people to deffend the possibilities and question there explanations, i find my arguements can only go so far, lack of education. So, i use it as fuel to learn, why would they say this is not real, that person is a fraud, why can't they prove this? As i learn, i learn why this is more than likely not possible, why this person is a fraud, and that one, and that one and on and on, i find flaw after flaw, fraud after fraud, i start to see that many of my backup depends souly on frauds, why would they do this? Who knows, who cares, because the one thing i learned from all this is one thing i would never do myself, which is to take an expeirence i've had and exadurate it to so called prove its existence, but as i get more educated i find out, some do it for money, some do it for other personal gains, and like i just said some experience things that feel real to them so to help persuade others they make things up because they believe its real yet can't prove it. I had been broke down to only a few things, one aspect left, how can something seem like reality, feel like reality, yet be a hallucination, and then my savor comes and shows me the evidence i needed to put all this crazy false information behind me, thanks burnt!, for pointing me to the last peice of evidence i needed. Now i can focus on reality instead of wasting my life chacing things people keep up with lies and assumptions, as in assuming because it feels real, it is real. I still wouldn't go as far as to say none of it could be true, but most of it could be proved if it where true, and the fact that it can't even be proved to be true by anyone, with all the claims and million dollar rewards untouched, just shows how many of them really are frauds or atleast not aware that hallucinations can seem as real as you sitting here reading this.

My goal was not to hate on peoples opinions, but to help them find what i have found, to help them understand what lead me to my conclusions. To help them understand that science is the furture, not sprirtual myths. All these many plant gods and other gods have been around for ages, where's the real proff that they even exist outside of the mind. There is a reality that is constant, and it seems to be the only one that is real, and the most important thing that helps seperate lies from reality is science, and science has its own mystiacl aspects, the big difference is they can be confirmed to be real, science has its flaws also, but they are rare, where as all the other stuff seems to just be false and kept up by people believeing and presenting false evidence. My method may be flawed, but hopefully some will read this and set out to learn whats real, and whats just blindly assumed. All these minds focusing on real matters of the world rather than chasing lies would really help make this a better place, its alot better than assuming some god is going to come and do it for you. I'm almost sure some will continue to stick to there beliefs, but hopefully you'll set out to prove its real, rather than assuming and guiding your life around a more than likely false belief. Question it! Thats my main advice.

"..Well, I KNOW that a plant is a being...when alive and growing though.. they respond to environmental fluxuations and strive to abtain what is "good" for their kind..there are trees that will release pheremones when being attacked by bugs for other trees to pick up on so that they can release toxins inthe leaves that the bugs wont touch..there is also some solid evidence that plants do indeed feel pain when branches are brocken etc..plants being "stressed" and growing slower is one example"


Sure, you could say a plant is a being, but only if you view the word being as life, whose not aware that plants are alive? And just because a plant struggles when a branch is broken in no way proves it feels pain, it dosen't have a brain or nerves, so it feeling pain is not possible.


Edit : I guess, in respect of everyone, i will discontinue to even have these talks, i've found my own answer, thats trully all that matters. What fueled this discussion was betrayal, i was just tired of everyone claiming there own truth based on what they feel rather than what they know(And you can't know something without real proof, anything less is just an idea, everyone should know thats a fact). If i sounded like an asshole, i truly am sorry, I mean no harm, and i will keep my opinions to myself.