The big mistake here, is that the figures don't say anything about genes.

The flynn effect alone should be convincing enough for most people to see this.

But the problem is that things like IQ tests and statistic correlations have an aura of pure science around them. Probably because many people are easily impressed with numbers.
So many, many people do misinterpret the data. They confuse statistic relations with causation, take generals as absolutes, and interpret test results as absolute, fixed and very precise measurements.

While REAL science says that the brains of childeren are highly maleable, and susceptible to influences, even before birth. (Think things like malnutrition, smoking, alcohol, chronic stress).
And yes, culture is a big part of that. (Don't know about the tiny houses though)

So if you have these huge cultural and socio-economic factors....how could someone even think that the figures say anything about genetics?

But well...we do that all the time, don't we? Isn't that why snake-oil vendors will always be there, making huge profits? All you need is one study, no matter how flawed, showing an interesting correlation between A and B, and you can make people eat rat-poison, believing they are curing themselves or preventing cancers to grow.

This isn't any different.

Oh yes, definetely, I personally think most of the people who are quick to bring the IQ data to the table, are represented on the lower end of the normal distribution curve. They don´t understand that anybody from any race can have an IQ above 150.
In the other hand, some other data can isolated more acurately, like the perrcenteage of a certain group that scores high enough to be an engineer (around 120), that would be white and asian: 10%, latin american 2-4%, african 1-2%. In modern societies, engineers are needed to build and mantain infraestructure: roads, bridges, powerlines, communication, extraction, transportation, etc.
IQ is obciously not the only indicator of development, I like the theory by Niall Fergusson: 6 killer apps that explain western power (consumerism, property rights, medicine, work ethic, science, competition)... so, white are not smarter than asia, but why do they do better?, because in a political system of constant competition and a protestant work ethic that foster wealth and acumulation, as opossed to a too obedient asian philosophy that tends to stagnation and resent the "bad emperor syndrome".
Anyway, western seems to be the engine of novelty that is later replicated around the world, but we are getting to a point when things can get out of hand and new monsters are breed...

With regard to the veracity of the IQ tests and the Flynn effect, I think we haven´t gotten smarter since Isaac Newton or Gauss. I don´t know why people keep scoring higher on this tests, maybe is the morphic resonance theory from McKenna´s friend, Rupert Sheldrake... who knows.

Sometimes, when the data is uncomfortable, people would attack the reputation of the source... like saying it was written by white males...
In this cases I like to think in the act of taking a plane. You can be the most extreme feminist fighting against patriarchy... but if you take a flight to Paris, you are getting in a plane designed by a white mile, the pilot is probably white male, the mechanic is white, and maybe the traffic controller too... getting in the plane and putting your life on the line is the ultimate act of faith, so you just can´t disregard white males data whenever is more convenient for the sake of your argument.

I´m not saying that is your case, when taking about nature vs nurture, I agree with you, babies are learning machines and the environment you grow into (your home, parents ocupation, speech, interest in arts and culture, multilingual,etc ) greatly determines your cognitive development. But that isn´t all there is.

Some people even suggest a correlation with IQ and the size of the head, they say asian women have widder hips that western to compensate for being shorter, africans have narrower hips (female) and smaller heads. Darwinians says the size of the baby´s head is under constant negotiation with female mortality, it´s as big as it gets without killing the mother at birth, or making her hips so wide that she is unable to run away from predators. That animals from other mammal species are born fully operative, being able to run, like horses or deers. But humans are limited and vulnerable...

What would I know... I am no doctor, in my field of expertise we spend all day picking curtains... I apreciate the conversation, being able to talk about this without engaging in a bare knuckle fight.

I spent months last year following both sides of this debate, heavily. It drove me insane because there is no definite right or wrong here. People are not so black and white, no matter where you go. The behaviour expressed within both the left and the right, can be found expressed throughout nature..Both the taking, and the giving. I dont like it, you dont have to like it. No one has to like it. It is just there, and it's part of what makes up the things that suck about this world.

Of course, much of what comes out of this type of divisive discourse, is going to be the perpetuation of it's own divisivness. There is no way out of this. It's like a paradox you have to live with.

I left the left, last year, when I saw people parading around with communist flags. I have always voted for socialist parties, when I voted. I cant say I am anything now, because I am mostly just horrified at the moment at what is going on around me. I am disgusted with much of the left wing agendas that are gaining momentum like snowballs, and just as dismayed with the growing alternative right.

As far as I can tell, you cant really get to socialism, unless you first build capital, as capitalists. Socialism can only go so far I predict as well, until it must become something that looks more like national socialism, and perhaps even back to capitalism. The magic wand of my 20's I assumed someone high up must have, does not exist. It is like some strange joke of existence. If a person really believes in the idea of a proletariat, perhaps going home and fixing your own life(w/e that looks like) really IS the best thing they can do. The world needs more clear heads, and more of this thing so hard to quantify called love. The hard lefts will come at me for saying that, because there is nothing tangible there, and yet every single one of you knows what I mean and could of countless times you could have loved and made this place just a little bit better, and you didn't. There are so many ways people can pick that apart, and I have grown weary of these arguements. If you dont want to look around at what your responsible for in the immediate 10 feet around you dont come telling me about the rest of it.

I assume this type of thing is bound to happen over and over. Multiculturalism is nothing new...look at the old world and silk road etc. This is nothing new..neither are it's politics..it's wars. Some of the craziest racism I have heard of exists within tribes of peoples with little to no contact with our technological civilization. The push for social progress is a necessary one for humanity in my opinion, but it's not going to happen overnight bectoause some people suddenly chose to spend they're 5 seconds in this world screaming about a drama likely as old as life itself.

The back and forth gross mischaracterization of individuals becomes quickly unappealing for those who actually care about things like facts and truth. It's a waterfall people are going over into a vortex of hateful delusions, on both sides.

^

I just listened to the latest JRE with Peterson (#1139 iirc) and he eloquently hit this point as well, personal responsibility (and the avoidance thereof) seems to really be the heart of this whole fiasco. The monologue he gave about 40 minuets into that interview about raising your son, not to win the game, not to win the championship, but to win the series of championships that is life and doing what you can with what you have and so on and so forth was really beautiful and really helped me see through all the political nonsense, divisiveness, character assassination and the rest of it to what this guy is really on about.

That was beautifully said, and i found it really touching to read. I'm so used to hysteric debates and this was just a really authentic, intelligent comment on the matter, thank you!

I would say i do believe something like anarchy is possible because i believe in the power of humans. Not through socialism because that takes personal power away, but through self empowerment and level headedness. Both can be achieved by love and - psychedelics can certainly help one discover that.



YES. I would even go so far as to say that the right to speak the way you want to speak is tied into the issue of cognitive liberty. What Peterson is speaking out against is what makes the book 1984 so scary: The policing of thought by making a change in language a political tool to be used on people, to control and disempower them.

Exactly. A good portion of that podcast left the politics to one side and focused on self-improvement and personal responsibility. Politics is all about controlling other people (or trying to, at least) to suit yourself. But the point is made that you could just ignore all that and focus on what you can do FOR YOURSELF (!!!) to improve your life. Political agitators on both sides want to steer the debate away from taking personal responsibility and towards pointing the finger at others and blaming them and their viewpoints for the ills of the world.

I'm not saying that Peterson doesn't do those things either (or even that he does - I could care less about his political stance as I form my own views based on critical thinking), but there is a great old saying, "Take what you need and leave the rest". I couldn't even finish that podcast because while he does have some good points, he also has the ability to bore the listener to death with empty-worded nothingness - a bit like being force-fed intellectual rice cakes. But anyway, even if you disagree with his political views, imo anyone who listened to that podcast who didn't take an interest in the personal responsibility rap but is happy to rail against the political stuff can go to hell, because people who only want to change or control others while refusing to even look at themselves are the real "danger", and boy do there seem to be a lot of folks like that these days.

I think that the one thing the west has going for it, is the idea of liberty and human rights.

There is much that could be improved here, when it comes to those things. But in most other society's, people are even less free and less well protected. Western civilisation started to blossom, just about when these concepts began to take shape as well.

If people are free, and have the discipline to be able to handle this freedom, they will flourish. The more people flourish, the more society will flourish.

Wich is also why communism, as well as it's opposite, anarcho-capitalism, don't work.

I suppose jordan peterson himself would probably agree with most of this. From the few interviews or talks of him that i've seen, he seemed a pretty reasonable person.

Unfortunately though, the intellectual vacuum on the left as well as on the right, is enabling people to interpret some of what he says, as an "intellectually responsible" approval of misogyny, racism and anti-liberalism.

The fact that all the left has to say is "misogyny" and "racism", doesn't help, and makes these people think they're intellectually superior. Even when the accusations are correct. Because in that case they are but a perfect example of circular reasoning: "having unequal opportunities is bad because it is racist"....so racism is bad because it is racist.

But i think we should be optimistic. In an open society (Wich we are), darwinism will also apply to ideas and beliefs. Eventually, the most accurate ones will win (and keep develloping). The bad ones will lose their appeal.

I got to the bit in his book where he talks about forcing his kid to eat something by covering his mouth so he has to swallow. I had to stop there

I've been inspired by this conversation to read the rest though.

I do like the guy. From the bits of interviews I've seen and the first half of his book (12 Rules) I get the feeling that he is genuinely trying to help people and has some kind of 'calling' to do so.

I had wondered if this came from psychedelic use.

As with anything it's important to think for yourself and not jump on the bandwagon (something which I am so so guilty of)

Thanks for the thread, it's been an interesting read

At the core, what JP so dexterously articulates is that "radical equalism", as propounded by post-modernists of all stripes, is utter balderdash. With his eloquence and mastery of language and cognitive psychology, he deconstructs the naked attempt by post-moderns to subjectify and emotionalize the last 500y of Western objective inquiry and discourse. Peterson deftly dismantles the absurd assertion that human biology and biodiversity are but, "social constructs".

While retaining a civil tongue, he highlights the juvenile nature and content of the hysterics flung as suppossed reasoned contrast to his observations. JP traffics in obvious REALITIES. What infuriates his paltry critics is his capacity to undermine their histrionic rantings with ease.

Since JP's arguments are generally sound, the harridan rabble scramble mightily to impugn the man and those like minded. Ad hominem, on steroids.

Peace

Eventually, he is doing the left a favor.

The moral highground, wich liberalism definately has over conservatism, has made the left intellectually lazy and complacent.

This has perverted liberalism and lead it to turn against itself with "language policing" and other crazy and weird stuff, wich is all essentially anti-liberal as shit.

It's time people learn that it's all fine if they want to believe that they have the moral highground, but if they can't convincingly argue why that is so, the weight of it all will still total zero.

Reason will always prevail. Violence, terror and torture couldn't stop heliocentrism either.

Largely, the JP and DJT phenom, has little to do with politics("liberalism v conservatism". The crux suggests that self determination, freedom of association and the birthright to segregate onself, family and kin, AS ONE SEES FIT, is not and never will be the purview of under informed and overly sentimental co-eds, media goons or politicos!

Should one desire an actual "safe space" on a shrinking biosphere, diligent attention to the reality of, self/like, preservation will be mandatory. The sentiment that a particular "government/world order" can supply such for the teeming hordes is but a pipe dream.

Peace

Peterson on Psilocybin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZdlqGUtVgo

Was this during a recent talk he gave?

It´s dated 27th July 2017, here is the complete talk

VIDEO: Biblical Series VIII: The Phenomenology of the Divine

I like this, this is the Peterson people don´t know, he is funny, he says things like: "...people taking phychedelics will score one standard deviation higher on the "openness" (creativity) personality trait distribution after one year of experiencing a mystic encounter.."

It definetely increases your interest in art, that I can say from my own experience.

Most political convictions are pipe dreams. Pipe dreams are very often highly political.

A world without drugs is a pipe dream. And yet people are going to jail because of it.

That article could have been a lot shorter....but i appreciate the irony, considering all JP has been saying about post-modernism himself.

Still i wonder, what is it with these intellectual hypes?

It seems that it is more important today, how what people have to say is being framed in the media, than the actual content of what they are saying.....