I recently listen to the jre with Hamilton. They discussed the Moses and the burning bush story which got me thinking. Hamilton said that they could as used butter as an np solvent but he was unsure how they would separate the spice from the solvent,. There isn’t a need to separate them. If you were to ignite the solvent you could inhale the fuels. Could this be why oils were so sacred?


There was a report on a different forum, it’s linked on here somewhere, of someone trying to evaporate naphtha quickly with hot plates. When the solvent ignited, big shocker , and this person attempted to extinguish the fire, they reported they were struggling to see. Only to realize he was getting high on dmt.

So my thought is, if you intended to set your solvent on fire and inhaled the fumes, one could successfully break through.

Congratulations with your first class genius troll language.

Many Jewish scholars believe that Moses made an Ayahuasca-like concoction with readily available Acacia bark and readily available Syrian Rue seeds (both of which are found on the Mountain Moses was supposedly on) and brewed it in water to create a psychoactive drink very similar to Ayahuasca tea.

I feel likeI'm responding to every one of your posts. I'm not picking on you, i promise.


Who? Citations?

The people of the Levant most definitely had in use cannabis and opium in ancient times. While harmalas from rue existed they probably weren't used. The first two have definite historical and archaeological affirmation of use, butthe use of rue as a psychoactive agent is not documented per se, however is known to have been burned to ward off malefic energies.

Any use of tryptamine psychedelics would be pure conjecture. The acacia species that is local does not contain any significant quantity of DMT. It would be difficult to fathom the technique by which any psychoactivity could have been discovered in relation to that plant.

Maybe the disappeared Lebanese cypress forests supplied mushrooms, maybe.

The others, particularly cannabis are very much visionary plants. I feel that the visions reported in biblical books like Ezekiel and the rest of the apocalyptic Hekhalot and Merkaba literature of the Jewish tradition, and the concepts within the Essene apocrypha of later Christian schools can easily be attributed to the ritual use of those plants individually.

How is this trolling?

I’m clearly speaking hypothetically. As to what could be done.

I'm sorry I was harsh but I stick to the opinion.
I could have explained myself better but my facepalm prevented nominal coordination between eyes and hand typing, and I can't type blind... And on top of it I missed a hand that was otherwise there for typing. Go figure me being short worded. The hands are back to normal now.

If it was not intended as trolling, it sure reaches a level of those, the absence of considering risk did it for me. There are confused people out there, sensitive to suggestions as yours.
All the while you could just eat the butter.

Try it out. Nice case for natural selection and Darwins Law..

The burning bush was Acacia Confusa

Acacia confusa is a tropical tree native to South-East Asia.

I've felt since my very first hallucination, that the burning bush is a state of mind and trying to identify a plant associated with the story is just the typical conflation of truth and metaphor that many western readers of biblical material seem to pursue.

The first time i ingested mushrooms i looked at a bush and saw its branches contorting in a manner that reflected the action of fresh branches in fire, along with a shimmer in the air like heat.

Immediately the passage from the OT about Moses' hallucination sprung to mind-"it appeared to be consumed yet not consumed"; i came to my first psychedelic cosmic realization and I was off to uncover The Mysteries.

Mind you I'm not religious, nor a theist and never have been.

Acacia Nilotica is form of Acacia found in Egypt, and contains DMT. It was a tree holy to the Egyptians, and later the Jews.

It is a sacred tree in all traditions in which it is found, and as the magic rites of the Jewish people came directly from Egypt, chances are that they knew all about it.

While drinking ayahuasca I have found myself in contact with realms populated by ancients who were in the same space...I was seeing the ceremonies and rituals carried out by the ancients. Telepathic communication about their role with the medicine, and what they were attempting to accomplish, and why I was even witnessing it...

I have spoken with a leading expert on the place of DMT in the Jewish traditions (Joel Bakst, as seen interviewed in the spirit molecule), and he says that there is no "living" tradition of it, so he can not say if there is evidence of DMT use, that was not endogenous. They would spend their lives mastering methods for producing and navigating the spaces of endogenous DMT production... However he could not say for certainty of the plant based sources, as there was no remaining evidence, but it is hard to find evidence of things which are deliberately buried by the people, or burned by the enemies.

My take on it is this:

The Egyptians (proxy the Jews) were well aware of the uses of oral DMT, and perhaps forms which can be smoked. To think that they were oblivious of this, when they demonstrated clear mastery of their physical and intellectual realms, is naive. Just because there isn't hard evidence of it, which would be very very very very very rare for something which would have been a heavily guarded mystery, doesn't mean they were not aware of it -- we just do not have a complete picture of it.

Alchemical traditions which originated in Egypt were focused on distilling and purifying plants/substances down to their purest, and most concentrated forms. This was one of the primary focuses of the high priests, who were also the alchemists/astronomers/mathematicians/scientists. Some of the methods which they used could have produced smokeable DMT, though likely they would have figured out something with an MAOI, as again, this was one of their primary focuses, to discover as much of their environment as possible. Alchemy was both a highly scientific and spiritual
pursuit, reserved for those of the highest caliber. The secrets were heavily guarded, and never passed down in a form common people could easily decipher. Add in a few thousand years, a few burnings of the libraries in Alexandria, and hoping to find written evidence is slim to none. Chances are if it exists, the catholics swooped it up, buried it in the vaults (of not out right burning it) and murdered everyone they could with that knowledge.

There are paths of alchemy which use acid and base extractions. You can produce amazingly strong acid from vinegar, strong bases from wood ash. When done right, a traditional alchemical extraction method can produce DMT to smoke...There are people who are doing similar things here on this forum with ethanol extracts. Acid + Base + Ethanol has resulted in smoalkable substances...Someone long ago may have figured this out, as they were far more knowledgable about their environments that we can even dream of.

I heard somewhere (possibly McKenna) that it was psychedelic mushrooms that were native to the mountainous region where he was. It makes sense if you think about it. You are hungry, find mushrooms and eat them because its too late in the day to hunt or for whatever reason. You eat them and fall asleep before the effects kick in beside your camp fire. A camp fire fresh in your mind as you doze off. You wake up and what do you see? A fire super-imposed over a bush, or rather a hallucination of a burning bush followed by a very profound spiritual experience.

Religions all over the globe seem to have these types of experiences. IMHO various religions seem to make sense in a psychedelic context. I don't believe this devalues or degrades their experiences, I think it sheds light on the importance of study in psychedelics in relation to spirituality.

As a side note, I don’t think you should be advocating setting solvents on fire and breathing the vapors. At best this is an incredibly dangerous thing to do, please try to actually contribute something that wont literally kill people.

If I travel back in time and have just the resources of the bronze age societies, I would use something like this:

1. cook the plant with vinegar (acid)
2. add crushed limestone (base)
3. extract with olive oil (nonpolar solvent - ancient Greeks already had it)
4. backsalt with vinegar
5. evaporate water to a minimum amount
6. mix into a paste with some ash, burnt shells etc. (freebasing)
7. dry
8. mix with herbs and smoke from a ceramic bowl or something

I don't know if it would work - maybe it's a good suggestion for the Primitive Technology channel

As a student of western esoteric philosophy and occult practice, I'm interested in your assertions.

I'm familiar with the writings and philosophy of the Jewish Merkavah and Hekhalot mystery traditions, which indeed contain some very DMT-like descriptions of imagery.

I've also looked into some of the ancient Egyptian magical theories and practic. While most of the information comes from only a handful of extant contemporary sources, and I'm not as read on those sources, there is a good amount of information on practices. Cultures that came after, the Greeks and Romans even, took from those Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian etc practices to build their own. Isis became Aphrodite, etc.

The priest class in both Egyptian and Jewish ancient culture were very important and were the cultural and social elite. They took very careful records. They kept a lot of secrets too and of course the burning of the second temple, and other historical events compromised our knowledge of those secrets. The kabbalist schools kept a lot of those mysteries alive however and i have never seen any kind of indication other than physical yoga techniques to achieve altered states of consciousness.

There are also many records too of meditation asanas, and ceremonial practices designed to place one into a receptive state to receive visions. I'll find some citations but it'll take time, I'm on the bus to work atm.

I'm wondering if you can provide sources and citations for the claims on Egyptian alchemy? Arabic and Chinese alchemy preceded the explosion of interest in the subject in the middle ages in Europe with Queen Elizabeth and John Dee et.al.,but I'm not familiar with the school of Egyptian practice.

I don't fall into a school of exogenous DMT in middle eastern antiquity, nor am i a proponent of the production of endogenous dmt as a way to produce mystical vision. I really don't but into a. nilotica being used to either make a form of ayahuasca or to freebase out alkaloids for smoking.

When we look at other practices that are known to have occurred, consumption of things like marijuana and maybe even syrian rue was done on a large scale, with huge quantities of the plants in question burned inside some sort of enclosure that was used to concentrate and then inhale fumes. This doesn't really indicate a practice like snuffing, inhaling with a pipe etc, that would show the possibility of smoking freebase DMT.

So in order to understand where my view is coming from, you have to be versed in elements of lab alchemy, and the history/origins of pyrolytic, and acetic distillation paths used by the alchemists of old... I am not going to provide you with many citations of where I located this information, but I will give you the name of a western hermetecists who has a great deal of information in his lectures and bodies of work. His name is Rubaphilos salfluĕre -- he hosts a forum which has tons of amazing information, and at least 100 or so essays he has written regarding his experiences with in the western occult. Worth an investigation for any serious occultist.

I am a student of the internal path of alchemy, while my brother keeps diligence in his lab, learning distillation techniques. Much of modern occultism is a dead end, as it allows people to intellectual grapple with a subject, and go through the motions of what seems like an occult/spiritual life style, with out providing any real results. You may not have this issue, as you are on this forum, and probably have consumed enough psychedelics to glimpse some of the mechanisms of this simulation (for want of a better term). However, most people involved in this work really have no first hand experience with truly altered perceptions

If you a familiar with this history of the Alembic, with the oldest known used for distillation dates back to 2000 BC, but chances are this was known of, and used far before then in more secretive circles. The knowledge of distillation goes far back. Pyrolytic distillation being the oldest, which is using fire to break down substances. Acetic distillation was first mentioned overtly around the first century AD, but it's origins stretch back to Mesopotamian and Egyptian rites, and was a heavily guarded secret. The party whom first recorded it was belonging to schools linked back with those groups. I am certain that this information was known by some of the more adept members of the Egyptian priest class, as they had the mastery over their environments, and were experimenting with both pyrolytic and acetic extraction paths.

Egypt is the birth place of Alchemy, as it is with Kabbalah. Kabbalah is not solely Hebrew in nature, but it's current state is. The Kabbalah we know now completely entrenched in the the religious political aspects of Jewish, which can detract from some of the real principles behind it. Which is that it is a structural guide for how our consciousness interfaces with our perceivable universe, and the mechanisms maintaining our perceived separation. There are certain Kaballistic practices which are out there, which have done their best to separate themselves from the accumulated political dogma... Strip it down to its raw form, and we begin to see more of what the Egyptians did. However, so much has bee lost over the ages, and much of the Jewish method for attaining prophetic/visionary states was deliberately buried for safety ( some of this info on the cessation of Jewish prophecy can be found in Rick Strassman's book DMT and the Soul Prophecy)

Also, if you are familiar with the work R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz, whom was a student of Alchemny, and did some of the most extensive work into the symbolism found in the Luxor temple, as well as the work of John Anthony west, you will find some compelling information concerning the nature of consciousness, according to the ancient Egyptians... Their models fit perfectly into areas which can be illuminated by deep work within the DMT space...

I am fairly convinced that there were oral DMT traditions that spawned much of our western judeo-christian mentality. Not only because of the research I have down, but because of the experiences I have had which lead me to begin the research in the first place. In some of my work with Ayahuasca, in which I have participated in very rigorous diets with the plants, including one which is revered as the tree of life in South American traditions, I have become aware of the space in which my ancestors (the Jews and Egyptians) had created with in the DMT space. Seeing the ceremony spaces, temples, rites, and receiving direct ancestral information regarding specific details in how plants/temples were worked with...Having the Ayahuasca spirit tell me directly the role of N. Nilotica in the spiritual evolution, while telling me I would be an agent reviving that specific tradition, and to ask the Shamans I work with to apprentice under them, so that they would give me the tools to complete that task. There is now a 10 year apprentice ship underway to learn their particular path, which involves the South American tree of life (Noya Rao), and once I am learned to invoke it, I will have to proper skills invoke/use the A. Nilotica in medicine, as the world has mostly forgotten how to use it.

This last paragraph may bring me under fire, as it naturally will stir up controversy, but that is the path I am on, which has been rapidly evolving the last few years. Not everyone believes that there are intelligences working in the medicine space, but having been so directly guided by them, I can not ignore their messages... They prove to me regularly that they have the power to organize my life as they see fit. Visions of the future, which come true in a matter of days are the hardest to ignore...Literally memories of events of being places I had never been, with people I hadn't seen in years. Stuff like this happens all too often now. The more I attempt to align myself with their teachings, the more spectacular the occurrences in my life are... but I wont stray too deep into this specific topic.

Anyways, there is a lot more information that wont find its way here, that is sitting on my head. Please send me a DM if you want to delve into the realms of occultism...I would love to hear more about what you know, as there are few and far serious occultists whom are working in these spaces

I've found this whole discussion quite interesting, and I do not doubt that our ancestors may have discovered DMT and or/other psychedelics through alchemical practice or other means. I understand how some of this information may have been suppressed, but personally I find it unlikely that it wouldn't have been passed down at least through oral tradition as it was in the Amazon. I also understand that the western, Judeo-Christian worldview can be much more critical of substances such as this, but it makes sense to me that something would have survived in oral tradition, and that we would have known something about it in the western world before the 20th century. Thoughts?

[quote=Lowtones]

The surviving remnants of the information passed through in oral tradition are deeply hidden, if no deliberately buried. There has been tremendous loss of the knowledge which could have held this information, and I mean absolutely tremendous. How much of what was passed down in the Jewish oral traditions was lost during the holocaust is an incredible amount, and even if that, how much of the knowledge was really understood? There could have been oral traditions that knew there was something to be found inside the Acacia, but with out direct use and relation to it, other than through symbology in the Torah, but due to the lack of context, it would just be chalked up as metaphor to anyone with out real initiation.

However, from my understanding and dealings with people in the occult realms (and the hints dropped by others about alchemical extractions of Acacia which are used by certain Alchemical orders in the modern world) that there is an oral tradition of it, but it is deeply hidden, as it is not meant for the common-folk. Though, the common folk are breaching those realms more and more now, so the secret is pretty much out, even if the methods that were being used in the esoteric circles are still obfuscated. There is still tons of work which most common psychedelic users must do if they want to more powerfully engage these realms, and begin to rewrite elements of the coding which constructs your reality. Not saying that they aren't beneficial, but there are spaces that some just wont be allowed to go, or at least understand.

There is a PDF I am attaching which talks about the Masonic use of DMT... It is a good read. I (my brother, directly, but with my words in the emails) have spoken with the the one of the authors referenced in this paper about her portrayals of the alleged ceremonies revolving the Egyptian Rite of Freemasons. I proposed to her that the rite resembled oral DMT use with and MAOI, as it paralleled preparations for prolonged ayahuasca immersions. She was unfamiliar with preparations involving ayahuasca diets, and after an explanation, agreed that it was similar. Specific prolonged diets and meditation followed by the ingestion of white drops, followed by red drops which were the primal essence. To me, this is not a far stretch from concentrated MAOIs from syrian rue, which are white when they are purified well enough, followed by a nice red extract of Acacia. The method seems to be a preload with MAOIs for multiple days, then ingestions, followed by illumination and restorations.

We tried to get a hold of the actual author of this paper, whom is a master mason....but it turns out he is jail on drug charges. Go figure haha

Edit: Upon talking to my brother after making this post, P.D Newman, the dude who wrote that article, is no longer in Jail on drug charges..he is a free man! Time to try to harass him again lol

^^^ I've read that piece, thx.
I love the prudent wordings, it offers possibilities only, no assertions
Graham Hancock take notice

I've never been a ceremonial/ritual hard core dude, but then again they could easily represent a workable set and setup strategy.

When historic old timers making extractions: a probable form would be an oil, a full spectrum kind of jungle spice? Not exactly the cubic stone they speak of, sounds like a (mono?) crystal structure of which we know is way more of a hassle to get to, needing deep freezing in well distilled solvents etc.

Flavonoids as a natural maoi's in acacia? Hmm, the jurema preta wine of mimosa is not much of a big hit either. Heavy speculation here, as admitted.

I find that ceremony and ritual go beyond just set and setting, especially when working with those who are deeply initiated into medicine work...They can bring in things which most of us do not have access to, due to the relationships which have been developed and passed between lineages of teachers. Creating a larger energetic space to operate in is also synergy...I have gone into ceremonies and sat next to first timers, and I was experiencing intense OBEs when I was playing my instruments -- immediately going off world, and orbiting the planet, that sort of thing. Afterward the woman says the me that when ever I was playing the instrument, she would see herself floating around the planet. Seems like she was being pulled in with me when ever I dropped into space haha

I think there would be a combination of full spectrum spice, as well as more crystalline structures, with the older timer methods... I know of ways which people can get super amazing crystals using heated solvents, but in general when they are talking of a cubic stone, they are referencing plant based salts...the salt structures are regarded as cubic, for they were thought to be literal stones coming from the plants, and cubic was a way to describe that. No idea the extent of what is possible, for I have not muddled around in a lab enough with the old time methods to get results.

Can't say anything about natural MAOIs in acacia, but I am sure there were known plants with them. I was listening to a pod cast where P.D Newman speaks about using a passion flower as an MAOI...many ways

shit'a, (shiTTah; Septuagint xulon asepton; the Revised Version (British and American) ACACIA TREE (Isaiah 41:19)); (`ace shiTTim; the Revised Version (British and American) ACACIA WOOD (Exodus 25:5,10,13; 26:15,26; 27:1,6; Deuteronomy 10:3)):

The word was originally shinTah, derived from the Arabic sanT, now a name confined to one species of acacia, Acacia nilotica (Natural Order, Leguminosae), but possibly was once a more inclusive term. The Acacia nilotica is at present confined to the Sinaitic peninsula and to Egypt. Closely allied species, the Acacia tortilis and Acacia seyal, both classed together under the Arabic name sayyal, are plentiful in the valleys about the Dead Sea from Engedi southward. Those who have ridden from `Ain Jidy to Jebel Usdum will never forget these most striking features of the landscape. They are most picturesque trees with their gnarled trunks, sometimes 2 ft. thick, their twisted, thorny branches, which often give the whole tree an umbrella-like form, and their fine bipinnate leaves with minute leaflets. The curiously twisted pods and the masses of gum arabic which exude in many parts are also peculiar features. The trees yield a valuable, hard, close-grained timber, not readily attacked by insects.

The ark of the covenant was made of acacia wood and according to the New Testament Rue was given as a tithe to the priests. The burning Bush was a kind of Acacia. Calamus, Cassia and Cinnamon were in the anointing oil for the high priest along with Myrrh. There is an odd overlap here, Cassia and Cinnamon appear to be the same thing. Calamus is an unspecified reedy grass which could be phalaris but is probably Cannabis. Cassia or Cinnamon were not native but came from India or southeast Asia. The bride in Canticles is compared to Kanneh( Cannabis). With all these psychoactive plants at the very center of Jewish ceremonial contact with divinity, well it seems unlikely to be mere coincidence.

If you wish to confirm this go to Strong's exhaustive Bible concordance online and look up some of these words.