I enjoyed McKenna as a scholar of words only, in that I think of him as I would a really good book and a pretty good guy roled into one.

Also I don't buy the 2012 thing. But I'd also like to say that I haven't researched it in any great depth. However from what I have read about the physical occurences, there's nothing in my mind that could draw a conclusion as the way it evidently has been in many "2012 believers"

I dont necessarily believe in 2012..well I dont bother to worry about it either way really...BUT I do think there is something to the idea of the ingression into novelty..

It makes perfect sense that things get more and more complex until it hits a epoch..a point of condencing all that information into a smaller package more esily seen as one thing, and that things are different after that point...maybe it happens slowly mayeb it happesn quickly who know...but it makes sense that it could happen.

I want to say that I operate under the assumption that reality exists. Even if it may not, that belief has enabled me in the past to make useful predictions about the future, so I am going to keep believing it. If there are 10 people in a room, and one eats mushrooms and sees the walls morphing while the others do not, would you say that there is an equal chance of the walls having been breathing and the walls not having been breathing? I think that if I saw something while on mushrooms that I would not believe to be possible while sober, then I would attribute that phenomenon to a hallucination rather than let it override my existing belief structure.

^except that what you see in normal reality is only a chemical indiced approximation..just as what you see when on psychedelics in a chemical induced approximation..or more a chemically induced angle or perspective...

I think that normal brain chemistry is just what we have evolved into becasue it is essential for us to view reality that way so that we can operate on a physical-survival circuit..taking care of food, shelter, securing our environments etc.. but it is just an approximation of reality that we see to get certain tasks done..

When we take DMT for example we just see another level, another approximation or angle of reality..from where new taks can be carried out, like spiritual or psychological work for instance..or maybe something differnt who knows..

Fair point. Entheogens are definitely promising in the areas of psychiatry, self-help, etc. However, it stands that if you see a vision of something happening while on DMT, that doesn't make it any more or less likely to happen unless you manage to create a self-fulfilling prophecy (seeing yourself fail a test, getting anxious and then failing the test, for example). So we can say that psychedelic visions do not enable us to make useful predictions about the world.

The main question is: Are these realities as valid and real as the "common" reality?
Or maybe some state of mind under influence of entheogens might be even more real then reality?

These are questions nobody can answer to.

My point of view is, that these "rooms" which open up under the influence of DMT for example are part of reality! I experience mostly teachings.

I did not experience a jump to other worlds or some sort of visiting other worlds like the one we have.

Yet I think this is possible.

If you make an astral voyage under the influence of any psychedelic I actually believe this is THE real REALITY!

I think concentual and other forms of more subjective reality are all parts of a larger whole, making up THE reality..

People want more than a life and a death. This is nothing to be ashamed of it is a simple fact of psychology and a evolutionary trait that has allowed us to progress this far. They want to believe in something more than themselves, they do not want to confront the fact that there is nothing more. They do not want to take full responsibility for there destiny. They want to believe a higher power will guide them, I to ask why?

To me the our existence is nothing short of a evolutionary miracle we have made amazing progress since leaving the forests of Africa to spread across the entire earth. To me that is all I need to be fascinated and memorized the TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION!!!

The scientific method is my religion, its simple steps can be carried out by anyone who can devise a hypothesis and preform a proper experiment. Science empowers me to be my own "god" find my own truth and be able to prove it. Until this test is run everything is just speculation. No matter how complex and well thought out it may be.

So the experiment is under way we await 2012 to collect our data and bring our experiment to its conclusion. We will then chuckle about the result just like I chuckled at the year 2000 folks who stocked basements with beans and rice. Maybe we should all just stock up on beans and rice and forget about the calendar. Every today and every tomorrow could be the real DOOMSDAY.

My negative hypothesis is that we will die slowly on earth just as we evolved. Hopefully a few or many humans will have already departed from the earth by that time and we will survive as a human species.

Yes pseudo science(just like religion/good intent but destructive) is not productive because it promotes erroneous beliefs in the uneducated masses and slows the progress of science. A science that will someday ensure all humanity has three nutritious meals a day. A Science to cure human disease, A Science that will allow all to contribute to the human collective. So I would say to all get a education you can go to school or merely study and read on your own. FUCK SOCIETY'S BULLSHIT since when are the ignorant masses solving proublems or making new discoveries? They are not, they simply cloud and obscure the light humanity seeks.

Whats the old proverb Mama used to say?
"Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see"
Thanx for that mom! You are correct about the "sticks and stones that break my bones" as well

If I could just convince them of the truth in the words of Jim Morrison.

"The whole worlds a savior who could ever ever ever ask for more."
"Do you remember and will you stop"
"The pain"
"There will never be another one like you"

PEACE
MV

Magicvenom,
i really liked reading your posting.
But seriously, we are not just another bunch of animals.

You have absolutely no proof, that there is no faith! Actually you can just claim, that there is no faith and no guidance.
Some people look into the future. They see things before they actually happen.
This is a fact.

I see that there is faith!
A human being is supposed to grow. Not only contributing to humankind, but evolving his conciousness which is actually a contribution on a higher level.
Of course you have to follow your heart, and this will be your destiny!

Gentlemen this is an excellent conversation, please keep it up.

We need to be careful about the word "reality."

Reality is 110% defined by your singular perception of the moment.
If you are on a mad Spice trip getting raped by an alligator, your reality is getting raped by an alligator. If you're looking at a radar screen that shows a surprise invasion fleet of Japanese dive bombers, your reality is likely in denial, and you see an equipment glitch until the bombs actually drop.

There can be no "objective reality" independent of an observer, it is a function of perception. This is the ultimate lesson of spice. therefore, if one "knows" y2k to be the end of the world, it is. Same for 2012.

This is a comon issue called the Subjective-Objective Problem


Also, my shameless 2012 SHE plug: http://www.dmt-nexus.me/....aspx?g=posts&t=7405
(provides links to some 2012 background)

The idea that there is no objective reality is silly. If I'm not looking at my cat, I don't assume that she no longer exists. It's true that our perceptions determine our experience of reality, but reality itself? Matter and energy exist whether a human is perceiving them or not.

Although if reality is an illusion, then I'm arguing with myself anyway.

Thank you, I never have or will proclaim my opinions to be fact or some thing others should follow. They are just expressions of my personnel mythology and are ment to describe my experience and provoke thought in others. I have no absolute believes in anything nor have I ruled out possibilities.

It all goes back to the sane question is the brain conciseness? Its conciseness lost at the death of the body?
I am like the old Zen master who tells you nothing is real and then points to the UNDENIABLE beauty of a small creek running thru the bamboos as sparrows jump rapidly branch to branch.

PEACE
MV

PS I do NOT consider myself a Zen Buddhist I consider my self as nothing.

I'm certain that death is not the end of "YOU".
You will go and create another body for "yourself".
Some scientiests even tried to weighten this part which is eternal.
They weightened people before they die and after they died!
I think it was about 20 gram lost

Don't know if this can be considered as scientific evidence

Maybe you have to be parted from your body conciously once!
I think everybody who does make such an experience will become a knower (NOT a believer )

Good example.
When you close your eyes the cat does exist, but only in your mind as an object permanence illusion--just like watching a movie (which is just a bunch of still pictures). If you aren't directly sensing the cat, it dosn't exist.
(even if you ARE directly sensing the cat it may not "exist," but that's another bag of marbles, see: Meditations on First Philosophy)

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, it doesn't exist until you find it.

If you can prove that 20grams in a proper experiment I know of I guy that will give us a MILLION dollars. I will split it with you 50/50. PM me with info I need money to start the MV Institute a non profit corporation that serves all Humanity.

I never proclaim my self to true or false. I exist in a non dual manner that encompassed everything....and nothing

I judge no one nor do I dismiss there opinions.

PEACE
MV

how do you KNOW that when you close your eyes the cat exists?..its all assumption..well grounded assumption ..but still assumption.

Thats what keeps things interesting..we assume all types of things..

So what about the idea of increasing complexity?..and glass ceiling or epoch leading to compression? this makes a whole lot of sense..especially with the level of increasing technological advance in our time..seems progression usually works that way..

Watcher and the object are connected inseparably!
This is quantum physics.

There has to be a conciousness to perceive the reality.

My view of the world is about like this:
We exist on different levels. From Soul over Body and some levels in between.

Different expressions of the original information / lightbody of ourselves.

We perceive only the material world trough our bodies.
The other levels are accessable either trough meditation or drugs.

Of course we perceive the whole reality at any time, but only few drops of it come to our ordinary conciousness.

So, reality depends on your being.
You decide your reality, and therefore: YOU are the creator of your reality.

Problem is still: Does reality exist without an perceiver?
I think, that reality can't exist without conciousness to perceive it!
Because, if nobody is there to perceive it - There will be no reality for anybody

"Because, if nobody is there to perceive it - There will be no reality for anybody"
Excellent point Mr DMT!
So how many of us are there? This conciseness that each of us seems to think they have? With the facts i got I say just me `here, making it all up as I go along unselfconscious of myself and my delusion, that I am the single conciseness that thinks it is many What a devine fool I would be eh?

Interesting speculation and discussion.

The Amazing Randy he has a million dollars up for grabs to anyone who can prove any paranormal or supernatural phenomenon in a lab environment. He once did a homeopathy test with a french Dr researcher on the discovery channel. The Dr could not duplicate the results he claimed so no million dollars but he was on TV.

OK here is the link and excerpt
"In 1987, Randi became a naturalized citizen of the United States.[13] Randi has said that one reason he became an American citizen was an incident while on tour with Alice Cooper( ) where the Royal Canadian Mounted Police searched the band's lockers during a performance, holding Randi at gunpoint when he objected.During Alice Cooper's 1973-1974 tour, Randi performed as the dentist and executioner on stage.[24] Also, Randi had designed and built several of the stage props, including the guillotine.
Current health - cancer treatment (Go see Alice wile hes still alive HELL OF A SHOW )
At the The Amaz!ng Meeting 7 (July 9 - 12, 2009), Randi, in a wheelchair, announced to the audience that he is fighting intestinal cancer and had a "ping pong ball"-sized tumor removed from his intestines two weeks earlier and would begin chemotherapy two weeks after the conference: "We'll fight it," he said, "And we'll beat this. We still have a lot of work to do."[18] He also said at the conference: "One day, I'm gonna die. That's all there is to it. Hey, it's too bad, but I've got to make room. I'm using a lot of oxygen and such — I think it's good use of oxygen myself, but of course, I'm a little prejudiced on the matter."[18] Randi also said that after he is gone he does not want his fans to bother with a museum of magic named after him or burying him in a fancy tomb, instead he said, "I want to be cremated, and I want my ashes blown in Uri Geller's eyes."
His physicians have put his five-year survival rate at 50%.[18]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi

Please consider me when collecting the $ loot surley I might deserve something????
small referral fee maybe.........


I respect the opinions of all others and wish I to could believe as I once did. So I guess you could say I am not sure of anything until the conciseness/brain question can be answered.

Thats why I am a member of the Nexus because we are working on that issue, and may be on the cutting edge of conciseness research. Now that is amazing and something to be proud of. So we must try to run a tight experement here even if it is not official it is still learning and growth.

So its all good but we should be careful, just as any explorer would in uncharted territory. Since we seek to dismiss the dogma of old we must be sure we do not simply create another dogma. Such has been the work of religious missionary's in the past. Yes they changed the natives "evil ways" what way was that another myth or lie a different evil ignorant way.

So who will be the first generation to bring us out of our modern DARK AGES? A society based on tried and true teks (SCIENTIFIC METHOD and proof of progress) So far I am sure most of would agree that the beliefs of the society's in general up until this point are fundamentaly flawed and so are for all practical purposes BULLSHIT(pardon me again)


I am going to post this to so others will be able to see where I am coming from. That location is NOWHERE. its just a unconfirmed meme in my mind.


PEACE
MV


PS there is also a $50,000 reward for any live snake in excess of 34feet If you seen that dude please PM me so I can wrangle the snake up measure it and set it free back to its home in a undisclosed location. That wont fund the MV institute but its a start

2012 will go one of two ways: People make something happen for whatever reason they have to exploit the hype, or people will be too busy waiting for something to happen to even bother to facilitate any sort of event. Certainly novelty theory has some vague credence, but the only fulfillment of prophecy we will likely see is self-fulfillment.


On the other subject at hand: My experience of the world can be best summed up in an allegory.

The self is like a sun, and the light is its perception. This light can be cast on one side of a planet, and though that planet may rotate and expose all sides to the light of perception, everything behind that illuminated surface (the inside, the other side, and behind the planet) is hidden in shadow. The planet can be smashed into pieces, and though the illuminated area may continue to increase, there will always be that shadow region. Even the sun itself has its own shadow region within and the source of light emission cannot be considered as illuminated or shadow, but simply, luminous. However, the illuminated and luminosity itself is ultimately sourced in shadow, and to complicate matters more, shadow couldn't be differentiated as shadow except that it is cast by the cooperation of both the illuminated and luminosity. Shadow also makes illuminability possible by persistence in the sense that though a moon may reside in the shadow of this planet, if it were to orbit to the other side, it would be illuminated, but this wouldn't be possible had that moon not persisted through the shadow prior to this illumination. The shadow within this sun can also potentially be illuminated by yet another sun, as well.

To sum up this allegory: The shadow, or the imperceivable, is the persistent core or foundation upon which the illuminable, or perceivable, may be illuminated, or perceived. Explaining any of these except in terms of each other is an impossibility, and the best we can hope to accomplish is to work at understanding the ways in which they work together.

Dualism's (i.e. objectivity and subjectivity or body and soul) always turned out a dead end for me. The only way I've managed to come to any satisfactory understanding of the universe is by a cyclical tripartite conceptualization.