...and its implications. I felt compelled to share this here in case it is of interest to some Nexians, I feel this guy did a very good job at translating a small slither of the truly ineffable into words in a very eloquent and succinct manner. Not only that, but his insights and perspective on the 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough experience and its implications very deeply resonate with my own based on my own experiences. I appreciate this may come across as mighty grandiose for those who lack experience with this compound. The insight of the 5-MeO breakthrough for me was honestly bigger and more profound and unexpected than I imagine encountering an intelligent alien species in the flesh to be. The source of these words is Guy Crittenden (relevant article on his 5-MeO experience is linked below) from a post on the 'Toad & 5-MeO-DMT Forum & Support group' on facebook (I asked his permission to share his words).

http://guycrittenden.blo...-dmt-toad-sacrament.html

His website:

http://hipgnosis.co/



...wondering, to what extent (if any), this person's insights on the breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT experience and its implications resonate with others here with experience of this substance?

In his defence Richard Dawkins might point out that similar feelings are related by some people with epilepsy after seizures. Would we say their condition enabled them to access this knowledge or that it was in the brain and they interpreted the experience in this way. My best friend when I was 18 developed a brain tumour and had some "religious" experiences, schizophrenia would be another example. I think we have to be very careful with experiences such as this and nnDMT and how we integrate them into our lives. "Love" is not "real" in one sense but when we "feel" love for our children,family,or friends then it has profound meaning for our lives, and love transcending this felt under psychedelics can have beneficial effects for how people live their lives on this planet; we are all connected universally,we know this intellectually but to "feel" this is an experience which should be available to all.

Someone brought up this point in a reply to the original post.



A few points...I think we also need to be careful lumping the breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT experience with the side effects of epilepsy, brain tumours and schizophrenia...we really don't know to what extent they are similar, and I think it likely they are some major differences between such states. As Guy mentions in his post, the breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT seems to provide a reliable hotline to a transcendent state of cosmic consciousness long reported by mystics, saints, sages, yogis and meditators...5-MeO appears to be a very rapid and direct means of accessing this state. It as also worth mentioning that while Guy alludes to N,N-DMT in his post, what he is particularly referring to in this case is the breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT experience in particular, which is a very different experience to that catalysed by N,N-DMT, with the former being a vastly more powerful substance.

I do agree that we can appreciate that we are all interconnected in a deep way...if you rewind the clock on the universe, we all come from that same singularity of energy, we are all fragments of the universe observing itself...but from the 5-MeO-DMT experience I gained the insight that to have an intellectual understanding of this, and to experience this directly with the very deepest core of your being, are two very different things.

I would be interested in hearing from people who have had their own 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough experience here...if you haven't had it, I don't believe there is any possible way you could conceive of or imagine what this experience is and how deep it goes. Without having experienced it directly myself I would have always considered utterly impossible for a human being to experience something like that.

I totally understand everything you are saying,I am only making one simple point really.However much an experience seems to be direct experience it does not mean that it is real. I have not had 5MEO. If the experience was real then it would be on a level equal to alien contact in significance or proof that "God" exists. If it is not somehow testable then I don't think it can be proven to be real. Maybe one day it will be testable, until then I would have to say I am sceptical. That the experience may be beneficial even if not real could be possible,but if this experience is so profound that say an atheist would have their world view shattered and the experience not be real, what then? A state of accessing "cosmic consciousness"may not preclude an atheist viewpoint which merely states no belief in god. What a person means by god seems up for grabs these days. To experience ego death and the interconnectedness of everything from the singularity to the "now"with "time" non-existent is perfectly ok from an atheist standpoint. I'm waffling ,sorry...at the end of the day anything that can help people to be more aware of their existence and love themselves and others could be beneficial for humanity, we humans really need it right now. Would it matter if it was not real? Culture and ideologies aren't real either...

Great post Banco, agree with your OP and your second post.

It often sounds unintelligible to people that haven't pushed it into those realities, which is expected I think. [I don't have the intent to sound elitist here or something, that's not where I'm coming from]



I would add to say that efficiently vaporizing nn-dmt in a relatively high dose 'can' [sometimes given the circumstances] bring about that insta-boundary-dissolving & merging into the clear-light of the ineffable within seconds of inhalation. Though with that said I think 5-MeO to be obviosuly much much more reliable in that regard, based on anecdotal stuffs, general pharmacology & activity of it, plus what's been said here over the years on it, peoples experiences, etc. Plus it generally being a different experience to some degree, versus what often happens with nn-dmt.

I still have yet to try 5MeO, though with a few of the reality shattering experiences that I've had with nn-dmt over the years [out've the many other experiences that were of similar caliber or less], honestly in much of this conversation all this has become something fairly undeniable in my daily life, something that lingers heavy every day without much active thought on the matter, it's there each day.

It's funny regarding the Vedanta though, I'd found some of those texts after having had a few of my most powerful nn-dmt experiences many years back, I'd found the the bhagavad gita randomly one afternoon while at the bookstore - which I'd randomly picked up and started reading, eventually following that I had started reading pretty extensively into the upanisahds. Completely happenstance stumble-upon, or was it?

Honestly, reading those texts over the years, many of the things written - it's just so funny to me, so uncanny that these people were all coming to an incredibly similar place in regards to the Self, reality, & existence.

I mean if there's only one thing to take away from all of Vedanta I feel it's their standard axiom of Self-Reality, Self-Brahman, Self-Existence, we can interchange or doctor up any of those words, but they seem all meld back together into the same phrase, being that the Self is completely inseparable from, and enmeshed with - the whole of reality, subjective experience,the world ..and the one-without-a-second (Brahman).

The terms "Self' is said more often throughout the Upanishads than any other word I think, or at the very least it's one of the most common words seen in those texts. I had always found that interesting. The Self was, is, and has been their primary focus.

You know, over the years, when certain reports come along - like your MEO experience/s Banco, jamies talk the one year of taking MeO on a beach and merging with the-ineffable, other members experiences with high dose nn-dmt from over the years and their experiences (and the occasional similarities that can come about with high dose- nn-dmt).. it all makes me smile, knowing that others have felt these things in the depths of these powerful states of being.



Is Vedanta the answer to me? I've never thought of it in terms of an 'answer' or anything regarding some of my deepest experiences, though it is an incredibly powerful and ultra beautiful framework 'at the very least', not to mention that much within those texts has been felt by many a person that've roved into these deeper states over millenia.

I hear you dude. I was not brought up in a religious household and am a scientist by training so logical and rational thinking is important to me. I've got no agenda or axe to grind here. However I can only tell you from experience that this experience goes DEEP. Much deeper for me than anything else I've experienced in my life, following a decade and a half of fairly extensive psychonautic explorations with organic and synthetic psychedelics as well as other substances and practices. I can't prove that to you. What I find particularly intriguing and in some sense affirming is that what myself and this guy experienced align very closely indeed to what other people with 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough experience are claiming, it certainly isn't us alone saying this (I've shared a few relevant links below). This experience also aligns with the experiences of mystics, saints, saints, meditators and yogis going back through the centuries, as mentioned. "Many paths, one mountain." It does seem people separated by time, place, culture etc. are essentially describing the same core universal experience, or something close to it, accessed via different means, which itself is something worth pondering when we consider the reality (or not) of the experience or perspective it engenders.

Obviously no word in the English language has more baggage attached to it than "God". And yes it means very different things to different people. I never like to use this word, unless goading scientist friends. And I want to divorce this term completely from its religious application. I had an email debate with Rick Strassman about this...he wanted to frame N,N-DMT experiences in a pre-existing Abrahamic religious framework, which I didn't agree with. If there is a "God" it should be something that transcends and is completely independent of any religions, and in some way objective.

James Oroc, author of Tryptamine Palace was a staunch and cynical Dawkins-esque atheist prior to his first experience with 5-MeO-DMT (which is outlined in the first link below). And there are numerous other examples of atheists or agnostics being "converted" by this experience. For my first Bufo/5-MeO experience a good friend accompanied me, someone who had until that point always considered themselves a staunch life-long atheist (while also being a seasoned psychonaut). This experience made her a firm believer in a pantheistic "God of All" much to our mutual surprise! (My big experience was my second Bufo encounter). The "God" experiencers are describing is also pretty consistent...it is always an impersonal, pantheistic God, an eternal and infinite God of All That Is, ever has been or will be. In terms of religions perspectives on God, in some way the Hindu perception of Brahman seems to be a lot closer to what these people are describing than the Abrahamic perception of God. Also, if God really is everything that is, I'm not really sure how one could really "prove" it or not. How would you propose one go about trying to prove this? As Max Planck once said "Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature, for in the final analysis we ourselves are part of the mystery we are trying to solve." In some sense the difference in perspective between the atheist, who believes in no God, and the Pantheist, who believes All is God, is actually quite subtle.

For me, the 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough experience could be crystallised as the direct experience of pure, boundless infinity/eternity. Again, I'm unable to prove I experienced this, to you or anybody else, but the power of the experience transcends my need to really prove it to anyone (much better people have their own 5-MeO breakthrough experience and be informed by their own direct experience). I experienced very deeply the realisation that we are all one, in a very deep cosmic sense, and on some very deep level we are part of one unified energy or consciousness. And I guess I'm applying the term "God" to this infinite consciousness, because it seems quite fitting, and I do think others have encountered this and applied the same term to it, in their own language, and with their own label. This was a very big personal insight for me, and yes I would consider contact with an alien species in some way slightly less profound, personally...and certainly less unexpected...than this realisation was for me.

I think we need to be careful with labels here...some people may interchange "God" with Source or "The Godhead, the Supreme Mystery, the Conscious Infinity, the Pure Light, Brahman, Yahweh, whatever you wish to call it" to quote from the Oroc article linked below. But yeah I agree such an experience can be of immense value from an atheistic standpoint, and have tremendous beneficial potential for humanity, and our current predicament. The fact that we are here at all and able to have this conscious experience, these contemplations, and be aware that we are the universe experiencing itself, is mysterious and amazing enough without any other considerations needed.

Examples of other experienced what they refer to as "God" through 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough experiences are shared below...if you compare accounts, notice the marked and intriguing consistency between the type of God they appear to be describing.

https://abzu2.wordpress....the-sonoran-desert-toad/

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=18457

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=75716

http://reset.me/story/qa...-w-ball-talks-5-meo-dmt/

https://vimeo.com/138171763

https://erowid.org/enthe...ntheogens_article3.shtml

https://www.actualized.o...p-report-3-on-being-god/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1bfZ1p6sg

https://www.youtube.com/...v=4VNoe5tn3tg&t=475s

That is how I feel,that because we are part of the process,emergent phenomena, science will not be able to find all the answers. Already on a subatomic level it just gets more and more strange. I don't know what is meant in this context by converting atheists. I would love to experience connectedness to everything in a deep cosmic sense we are all "one" and part of a unified energy, I strongly feel this is an ultimate reality but I would not call this "God"I call this ultimate reality and this makes logical sense to me. Is our consciousness separate from our brain and in some way connected to a universal consciousness? I can understand how consciousness might evolve/emerge in living beings but as a part of a universal process connecting everything, that would be mind blowing but I can't logically see how it would be. If it was true then that would really shift my viewpoint but to me that would not be"God". I think we would be experiencing this connection in our brain so would not know how this felt outside our head even. Well, I would like to experience this but 5Meo looks scary, some reactions I have seen on-line look unpleasant, how safe is it?

Eternity is a funny thing...if it is true that our universe will expand and the galaxies move away from each other, eventually we will reach a point where other galaxies will not be visible and the cosmic background radiation tell us nothing about the origin of our universe...we will truly be alone and if our knowledge we have now is lost or we die out then future intelligent lifeforms will have no way of knowing there is anything other than their galaxy...

I guess perhaps the terms ultimate reality and "God" are being interchangeably here. But I have read many accounts of people describing encounters with what they perceive to be "God" or "The Godhead" through 5-MeO-DMT, and I've read numerous accounts of people who have discovered what they believe to be God...often much to their surprise, and despite their lack of belief...having experienced 5-MeO-DMT (and notably it is always the same kind of pantheistic God, as mentioned). This is what I am referring to when I mentioned the conversion of atheists. You made a point before about what is "real" or not, and this is relevant to this discussion and how this particular substance affects the ego. While we take our experience of life while in our physical bodies to be "real", 5-MeO-DMT so rapidly and powerfully takes down our ego, our sense of existing as an individual finite being, that it can really make one question just how objectively "real" this perspective is. While the ego obviously serves a very useful purpose in some major respects and evolutionary terms, in the wake of the 5-MeO-DMT experience it seems like the separation from universe/All concocted and maintained by the ego is in itself a very sophisticated and elaborate illusion and not as "real" as we take it for.

While I like to be logical, regarding my own experiences, the depth and power of this experience far transcend what you currently consider to be logical. Just because you do not consider it to be logical does not make it so. Even in science (especially in the subatomic world of quantum physics which you brought up), many things are that defy our perceptions of what we consider to be logical. Bizarre mathematics has predicted things that seemed to go against logical models, long before scientists were in a position to conduct experiments that validated said mathematics. I'm not arguing against the application of logic, but do beware as this is not a watertight perspective. The idea that consciousness lies at the root of All in some way, or is non-local and everywhere but at different frequencies as oppose to being an epiphenomenon of brain processes is the idealist, as oppose to materialist position, and certainly this former perspective is generating more and more interest and contemplation with passing time from a variety of circles. The curious thing about my experience, and part of the reason I think it has stayed with me almost a year after the experience, was that there was a curious logic to the experience.

I won't lie, I did experience terror during my 5-MeO breakthrough, and at some point I knew what it was to be mad, and I do feel while I don't know what dying is like and won't until my time, I'm unlikely to experience anything closer to that than my 5-MeO breakthrough. The experience of pure boundless eternal infinity for me was a terrifying experience because it went far beyond anything I could ever remotely conceive of or imagine, I could never have imagined such a thing was possible and it was so radically different to my normal state of consciousness. I had lost contact with my physical body and this reality and for a time didn't know whether I was dead or alive and I had temporary amnesia regarding my physical existence here. Also remember we can never ever experience something outside of our brain...even the experience of objective reality "out there" takes place solely within our brains...we are limited to and bound to that.

5-MeO-DMT definitely has a different safety profile than the other classical psychedelics and must be used carefully, and individual sensitivities do vary widely. Used responsibly and with care though I believe it can be used safely, and with the potential for great personal benefit. Eternity is a funny thing...prior to my 5-MeO breakthrough, I considered eternity to be the passage of infinite time...and I guess that is a valid form of eternity. From the 5-MeO breakthrough experience though I came to the realisation that infinity and eternity are two sides of the same coin, that you can't experience one without the other. This experience to me seemed to take place somewhere outside the physical universe where the rules of linear time apply...the linearity of time seems in some much more flexible than I ever dared guess.

Hey tatt

Glad you got something out of it.



100%. And no you aren't being elitist, this is just the clear truth...direct experience really does trump any amount of armchair scepticism here. Scepticism in its pure form is a good and healthy thing, but when it comes to such deeply personal and experiential realms of this, one's direct experience of the subject matter is really important.



You are absolutely right. I've read many accounts of people using other psychedelics such as N,N-DMT, psilocybin mushrooms, 4-AcO-DMT and a myriad of other substances...as well as people's accounts of NDE's, OBE's, yogic kundalini awakening experiences, darkness retreat experiences and experiences with deep meditation...where people seem to be describing something very similar to what I and other 5-MeO voyagers have experienced. Certainly I would consider N,N-DMT the next best shot at achieving this state, and I've read more accounts describing such experiences involving this psychedelic than any other psychedelic, but I agree with James Oroc based on my own experiences that 5-MeO-DMT seems to be a particularly direct and reliable hotline for experiencing this state...I think I may be a hard head in some respects and it took a breakthrough/release dose of 5-MeO-DMT for me to have this experience.



Same here. And in my case, this insight has remained tangible long after the experience itself (approaching a year) in a way that has made it highly distinct from any other psychedelic experience I've had.



I came to Advaita Vedanta post 5-MeO experience, and it really does seem to provide a great conceptual framework for the experience and its implications. I'm still a Vedanta noob though really!



Yeah, same here! I find this very intriguing, and also quite affirming. For anyone with a truly open mind when it comes to this subject matter, I think this aspect of it is indicative that it should not be quickly dismissed out of hand.



Yep. i think we need to be careful not to get hung up on labels. And in a nutshell, this is what I experienced, along with many others, and I feel this is a core, universal human experience that can be accessed through very different means.



Me too!

Ego is an illusion I think and in the future the systems which we have built and believe so strongly in: nation, political and economic system and religion will no longer have value in a post quantum world...maybe we can play a game of restoring the planet to the beautiful one it should be, I think psychedelics could play a major role in this. Would it be possible to develop one similar to 5me0 with a greater safety profile?

While scientific toxicity data is largely lacking, I think we can infer from a long history of human usage (in the form of snuffs, going back many centuries), as well as modern anecdotal accounts, that 5-MeO-DMT is a safe and benign compound for the vast majority of people...however given its vast power and potency, and the range of individual sensitivities to the compound, careful attention must be paid to dosage and how it is used, so as to maximise potential benefits and reduce potential risks.

In Hamiltons Pharmacopoeia,the guy near the river looked like he was having a right mare, though he seemed ok afterwards...

People can have powerful mental-physical reactions to a variety of psychedelics, it doesn't necessarily infer that the psychedelic is unsafe (with the right set/setting/intent in place), or even that such experiences can't be cathartic. And certainly no one is making the claim that an experience of that depth and power is necessarily going to be all smooth sailing either. That example is a case in point on the setting front, in that the guy really shouldn't have been in a river in the first place. Reactions to 5-MeO-DMT certainly vary.

I apologise if I derailed your thread Bancopuma, it is supposed to be about thoughts on the experience itself, which I do not have unfortunately. I do think 5Me0 has great potential. I don't think "modern day" shaman such as Dr Gerry are a positive development though. I am sceptical of anybody who claims to know the "Truth", would you give your thoughts on Martin Ball?

I had an 5 MEO experience with two Shamans that played shamanic drums 1cm from my head and body on full power while throat singing on full power through the experience.. Inline with my body dissolving and the tunnel appeard, when the drums started my whole self and I exploded into pieces.. I only remember when I got back more or less..

I have some natural 5 MEO from Mr Bufo stored like gold.. guess I have to collect some guts to explore it a bit more..

Now for the truth debates I read in this thread..

Two great Ayahusqueros which has trained since 6 years old told me: we do know nothing! our ancestors knew nothing.. Their ancestors knew nothing.. their ancestors knew a little bit.. their ancestors ancestors ancestors ancestors ancestors knew everything!

Knowing is overrated... trust and intuition is more stimulating and exciting.. measuring and valuing are for the ego.. the ego can not understand.. if to understand anything you have to step out of the ego.. the ego holds illusions with the help of Serotonin.. flush that out and you will get some truth.. that truth cant be stored as knowing.. that will be stored as intuition.

And if its sound like I know something.. this is not my intention. I know nothing.. and so did my ancestors

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." Albert Einstein

Human existence is a construct of the ego and is necessarily illusion so that our species can exist in the material world. The material world can be measured, knowledge of how the cosmos is constructed is of interest for it's own sake regardless of our human egos, the universe is there and we are part of it. On a sub atomic level, quantum mechanics cannot be measured so any ultimate truth from measuring is impossible. Knowledge will always be incomplete. The value of the 5ME0 experience is there whether the way it works is understood or not. Would it not be amazing though, to know that experiencing the connection between all things once the "I" is removed from the story is real and not just a creation of the brain? I wish there were different words to use other than "God", to me it comes with so much baggage...Einstein did not believe in god but used the word. I like the words of his you quoted, he also said something like "God doesn't play dice with the universe" but was a bit wrong about that one

Thank you BP for the information, much appreciated.
Here he talks about implications for the world:



It looks like the fire of "knowledge" cannot spread on it's own legs like the plague could, and attempts to make it spread are far from easy. My respect for the openings made here, that FB group, books, talks, these are all wonderful initiatives.

Yet this "importantly timed for the world" point of view, I really get the drift but TBH I've heard that before about ayahuasca, it was also incentive of the 'Brotherhood Of Eternal Love', and now shifted towards another level with 5meo. I do believe 5meo is most powerful more than the others given the testimonies, but that world-thingy gives me also a bit deja-vu feeling.

Well.. I know its real.. at least for me.. thats what I mean with the intuition.. for me that is the ultimate knowledge which also do not need confirmation.. that is all we monkeys will get as the ultimate truth.. we need to root it in intuition.. not in concepts theories and models.. it is to basic and its mearly a fun stimulating ego game we can amuse ourself with during the travel on this earth..

I think that trying to get to some understanding with the mind is a sort of curse.. the height of delusion.. when we leave the realm of mind we can get a grasp of some knowledge.. and which again is best understood when stored in the intuition far from language and conclusions.. its that intuition that creates that smile of: I know a little bit that you dont know.. which can often be seen in elder Shanans..

I have no idea what Im talking about.. but fun it is indeed...

Love and fear the 5-meo-dmt breakthrough experience. The coming up phase is the most terrifying psychedelic experience I've ever had. I get a very strong feeling that I'm about to die or am already dead. Then when you realize your not dead it is a beautiful serene peaceful head space to be in.