I am interested in self-sufficiency and permaculture, but I'm a Pro-Tech Green so my views are softer. I believe people who think like you are called Anarcho-Primitivists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism. Personally I think the belief that there is heterarchy and egalitarianism in small groups is flawed. Look at animal societies [EDIT: oh and tribal ones of course]. Also, I'm guessing we would need to kill off a lot of people to be able to live as hunter-gatherers again. Nutters in my opinion! But it doesn't hurt me if they want to live like that, so good for them if they choose to realise their dreams (and don't try to take the rest of us with them!).

You might like the film 'Into the Wild'. If you ever decide to go off and do it, let us know how it goes! Or you could go and live with a tribe somewhere for a while, to learn how to survive with them? That would be a wonderful experience, I'd love to do that one day. Tribal people KNOW, whereas these Western groups could I guess just be running on rose-tinted nostalgia. My friends and I have been meaning to go off 'Ray Mearsing' hunting our own food and camping under stick shelters one day, but we haven't got round to it yet.

I have read into the wild, I liked it, but it was not exactly what I would do, if and when, I chose to live by this system. If I ever did live in the wild, It would have to be somewhere so desolate, that there was no sign of human life, an ecosystem untainted by humanity.

MV, I agree with you about war helping evolution. When creatures go to war, it forces them to expand their minds to survive. If we do not do this, we will be wiped out and the other side will win. Thus they are smarter, and more suited for survival. Also, war is not such a particularly bad thing, many of the improvements we have made in medicine have been due to war, and the standard of living also greatly increased after world war I. Can one not argue that we have become smarter over the years due to the battles we have witnessed or fought?

Is war necessarily a good thing? Im not entirely sure, but it does have SOME value apparently.

War hold us back from evolution in just as many ways as it may help us evolve...all of that energy we put into fighting could be put into doing something else that might benifit humanity as a whole a little bit more..like dealing with our energy crisis, focussing all that money we fund wars with(coincidentally when we hit a recession, becasue war =$) to focus on better harvesting of resources..like solar energy.

We as a culture are not all that evolved..we have war becasue we are stupid animals acting like naive, frightened savages..thinking we NEED to defend our worldviews becasue for the most part, we are quite insecure beings. Thats why most wars are religous. Either that or based on purely financial gain. Or both.

If we were a truely evolved society, we would stop focussing on problems that are easily solved and ultimitaly don't exist and focus on the REAL problems that lie ahead of us. and BOTH sides would have to put away all the bullshit and open their eyes.

Someone raiding your land and taking away your home,threatening ones livelyhood and family is a good reason to go to war..to defend your family and home...but honestly these days that would mean civil war in america..storming the white house etc...but I dont see people doing that..and once you have your security back you stop.

I dont see war today like that. It's more a bunch of greedy self loving little bastards sitting up on theyr high chairs playing a warlike game of monopoly..and most dont even do a thing about it.

Also alot of the standard of living one may enjoy after war is directly related to the fact that you are now living at the expense of others.

I remember watching a video in anthropology class about the Dani people of papua ne guinea...it was about war there. Their whole lifestyle is based on war amongst eath other..and it's all based on revenge..a low vibrational thought pattern in my opinion.

They were shamanistic essentailly..and most of the magic they used as well was based on war. They did rituals every mornign to please the spirits and help them kill other members of the other tribe..everything to them was war. They had lived like this for so long they probabily had no real idea as to WHY they were doing it..other than thats all they seemed to have to do.

Anytime one tribe lost a member in war, they felt obligated to even the odds and kill a member of the other tribe in the next battle. They would have these battles sometimes once a week. They would fight usually until someone died. Then whoever died..had to be avenged by their tribe..it goes on and on and on like this. The tribes ambush eachother as well and kill children. It's fucking horrible horrible..

and it's all based on peoples lower level thoughts, about selffishness and the need to "even the odds", one up the other..stupid cocky pride. Like fucking peacocks.

That is the art of war.

Here is the video..it is called dead birds..some of it is real sad so beware.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKhG1UaI4jc

edit..it's a good video, very objective..the filmmaker did a VERY good jobof portraying the Dani people straightforeward with no theatrical hype superimposed over it etc..recomeded for anyone interested in tribal life.

Fractal is right on.

When you look at society as one organism, there is a temptation to come up with horrific views like "war is good".
No suffering is good.
Viewing the world from the viewpoint of the individual, you could never conclude that any amount of suffering is justified "for the greater good".

I, as an individual, would rather enjoy my life than be sacrificed to the sun god for the supposed benefit of others. The situation is no different when I must be sacrificed in the name of technological 'progress'.

If only more people would view the world this way. Then not only would we not have wars, but we wouldn't have stuff like this either http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpaatuGowAs

A society that values life is worth more than a society with technology. War is an evil act that serves only the interests of the powerful people who start it. Necessity is said to be the mother of invention, but war is not even a necessity, and we would be directing more attention to other things if governments weren't so obsessed with war. We have no necessity for consumerist gadgets either, but we're pretty good at inventing them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_TuctvWUXk...

War is nothing preaty..
http://www.youtube.com/w...2-Uk&feature=related

! WAR !! Huh ! What is it good for...Absolutely NOTHING...say it again !!

Not all war is started because of the acts of powerful people, but perhaps now that is the case, with Iraq and such. But in the past war was fought over other issues such as natural resources needed for each group to survive.

Aegle
I wish I could respond to each of you questions in dept with positive answers. I hate war and its insanity, I remember Vietnam as a small child I still recall the disturbing news reports every day. The reports were much the same as we hear today from Afghanistan, Iraq, a senseless battle over antiquated,prejudice, brain washed idealogies.

And so my rage against war often shows in my posts here. Intelligence is the best anti war tool truth and science are the things that will end war. Hungry people need education and a way to feed there familys.

How many Einsteins were born and died with no education? We need to get the GLOBE a education imagine the entire human population educated and working together. Finding solutions to proublems at a increasing rate corresponding to the increase with population the more people = the more resources to solve issues.

People seem to believe any bull crap that suits there belief system. I am a man of science even so I find it difficult to explain or justify humans ignorance. We have been fighting about religious bullshit and conformist ideologies of NATIONALISM and FAILED POLITICAL BELIEF SYSTEMS(please pardon me).

I for one must say religon is complete igonorance beleiving in immaginary gods and words of ignorance passed down from generations, words from a primative time before science and logic.

So I make my blunt point wishing in my heart it was not so.

War may provide the greatest service to mankind eventually proving that all religious conflicts are the folly of FOOLS just like all supernatural religious believes are the folly of FOOLS.

I am sorry this is not a well thought out response based on the old Nexus threads I referenced. I became convinced of this my self during a debate here. I was reminder that the Greeks and Romans worshiped Gods of war.

The Gods of any type are Gods of Ignorance and these people put there lives to be used as wepons against truth,science,compassion and logic. It would seem they can not be reasoned with.

And so we must kill one another until we rid our selfs of this inbreed ignorance. No belief system is superior to another there is truth and there are lies.

How can I make Osoma Benlodin my friend I can not he would kill me. As much as I hate violence and killing I would be HAPPY to cut his throat he is a murder and a madman the world would be better of If I KILLED HIM.

As horrible as that is and as much as it would disturb me for the rest of my life.

I must say I would sacrifice my well being to make the world a safer,more compassionate place.

I wish I had a better explanation but I embrace truth and compassion it is a road of sacrifice uncertainty and temporary pain.

And so the temporary pain of war will give birth to the peaceful destiny of man kind.


I just typed out this response quickly and passionately. I do not wish to debate some thing I WISH was not so.

And so my new friend Max it seems that your rant against society has merged with mine. It is a lonesome road that will lead us to our destiny with out regrets. I will meet you all in the END
.
Humans must consider the consequences of there beliefs systems or we will continue to live and die as FOOLS. Science will show us statistics it is up to each of us to make a INTELLIGENT decision.

KNOWLEDGE AND COMPASSION are the things that will set us FREE.


much peace compassion to all.
It is a rough road to destiny
Well will persevere


MV

MagikVenom

All I'm going to say in response is that every day the United States spends $2.7 billion on war, can you imagine how many children could be educated with that money or even how many people could be feed. I will never be a war supporter in any way shape or form because nothing that can really mean anything can be grown from war....

Here are some of my favourite quotes which really show how i feel.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."
By Jimi Hendrix

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries.
Without them, humanity cannot survive."
By The Dalai Lama

"If the love within your mind is lost and you see other beings as enemies, then no matter how much knowledge or education or material comfort you have, only suffering and confusion will ensue."
By The Dalai Lama

"To conquer oneself is a greater victory than to conquer thousands in a battle."
By The Dalai Lama

The rest of my favourites are on the Favorite Quotes Thread if you want to read the rest of them.


Much Peace and Understanding

I have to disagree with you here, MV.. The world would only be a safer place if you killed Bin Laden, if you are looking from a very limited perspective. Violence/lack of consciousness (to which bin laden here represents) is rather like a self-regenerating many-headed dragon. You may think destroying one head will make it safer, but as a reaction another one is created, or more than one, maybe even stronger than last one!

Its like in Dreamland where the police tries to kill the slum drug dealers, thinking this will end drug trafficking, but as soon as one is out another moves in, easily replacing.. Not to mention that obviously this person is not simply 'dissapearing into thin air' without any effects, but what do you think are the results of this death to those who were friends/family of this person, or the kids that were around and saw the death, or how the whole community will feel in general.. What do you think is being planted by this action, in the long term, peace, or more violence? I know what I think...

I definitely agree with aegle here, violence/war can only result in negative things

It would be way more effective to invest money and time in education, nature conservation and self-development..

Endlessness

I really love your analogy, beautifully said!


Much Peace

Thanks for your responses, I am sorry we had to exchange views on such a horrific topic as the insanity of war. I must say I was a bit negative myself it had been a long week fighting corporate recruiters trying to reach a salary agreement. The outcome you may wonder, well I am still a independent contractor/consultant. No corporate Job security or paid benefits for MV. Once again I return home after a week of ass busting telecom cutovers a contractor with no long term prospects. The exception being the many prospects in my mind. Its all I got I hope its all I will ever need.

The US spends a insane amount of money on failed programs at home and abroad. I am truly ashamed to be seen as a American who advocates the War on anything. The answer is education and empowerment for ALL HUMANS we all deserve a proper education. A education that can train me to work at a convience store if that is my destiny. It is also a education in nuclear physics if the individual is suited and so enclined.

Yes killing is never the answer I was a bit pissed at society when i made the harsh comment about Ben Laden. He needs a education free of religious and political dogma. He is obviously a intelligent person although his ignorant religious views prevent him from moving past the evil in his heart. His mind is CLOSED I should have said I would be happy to OPEN it.

Yes Endlessness is correct there may very well be a even more ignorant religious zealot than Ben laden who is even more evil and confused who would pop right into power and prove to be even more of a disruption to the progress of humanity. No different than Benny Hinn or Pat Robertson who call themselves cristian but in truth are greddy zealots and so are the enemies of all true Humanity.

Please forgive me for my some times harsh opinions. They are not to be taken as absolute facts but simple koans that may provoke constructive thoughts to some of us. Me I am not sure of anything. Except that some day I will leave this Broke Down Palace(my body)

Going Home and Listening to sound of the River. Fare you well friends That is the mellow peaceful destiny that I await.

PEACE
MV

Broke Down Palace
http://www.youtube.com/w...0D6D5DE75271&index=0

Fare you well my honey
Fare you well my only true one
All the birds that were singing
Have flown except you alone

Goin to leave this Broke-down Palace
On my hands and my knees I will roll roll roll
Make myself a bed by the waterside
In my time - in my time - I will roll roll roll

In a bed, in a bed
by the waterside I will lay my head
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
to rock my soul

River gonna take me
Sing me sweet and sleepy
Sing me sweet and sleepy
all the way back back home
It's a far gone lullaby
sung many years ago
Mama, Mama, many worlds I've come
since I first left home

Goin home, goin home
by the waterside I will rest my bones
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
to rock my soul

Goin to plant a weeping willow
On the banks green edge it will grow grow grow
Sing a lullaby beside the water
Lovers come and go - the river roll roll roll

Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
to rock my soul

I think we all get angry and say things we dont always mean or would care to execute..god knows I do..

Yeah MV, dont worry, we all get a little carried away with our emotions sometimes, I know you're a nice guy and that you want the best for the world

I shat this outta my brain lastnight...

WHAT THE FUCK DOES ANYBODY KNOW ANYWAY!!?? FUCKING HUMANS!!.... IT'LL ALL BE OK THO I GUESS
CUZ IT'S ALL GONNA FIX ITSELF HERE IN THE NEAR FUTURE... THEN WE'LL ALL REALIZE. THEN WE'LL
UNDERSTAND... WE'LL UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY AND REMEMBER. YEP WE'LL REMEMBER EVERYTHING FROM
THE BEGINNING OF TIME AND OF COURSE IT'LL BE TOO MUCH FOR SOME OF US. BECAUSE, MOST OF US HUMANS
ACTUALLY, ARE NOT READY TO TRANSCEND THEIR EGOTISTICAL, IRRATIONAL, CONFUSED, INSANE WAY
THEY LIVE AND HOW THEY TREAT EACH OTHER. IT'LL HIT THESE ONES LIKE A DONKEY RAPING PEDOFILE

GETTIN CAUGHT RED HANDED DOIN THE DIRTY SICKO SHIT THAT GETS HIS ROCKS OFF THE MOST! YEAH
IT AINT FUN AND GAMES ANY MORE WHEN THE REALITY YOU'VE SPENT YOUR WHOLE LIFE BUILDING UP ALL COMES

CRUMBLIN DOWN HUH. WELL IGNORANCE IS BLISS.. FUCKING HYPOCRITICAL CLOSED MINDED HUMANS!
IS IT SO HARD REALLY?TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND AND COME TO GRIPS WITH WHAT YOUR CONNECTED TO?

TO ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT IT AND COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT OUR CONSCIOUSNESS IS ETERNAL
AND CAN TAKE US PLACES WE'D NEVER EVER EVEN THOUGHT POSSIBLE...PRICELESS... ALL YOU GOTTA

DO IS EXPLORE THE SUB-CONSCIOUS MIND. FUCK I'LL EVEN MEET YOU OVER THERE, YOU WONT BELIEVE
ME NOW IF I TOLD YOU BUT WHEN THE TIME COMES YOU'LL REMEMBER IT ALL. THE OCEAN HAS BILLIONS
OF WAVES DOIN THEY'RE OWN THING, BUT WHEN THEY DIE WHERE DO THEY GO? ALL HUMANS THAT

ARE ON THIS PLAIN OF EXISTENCE ARE JUST LITTLE WAVES POPPIN UP OUTTA THE INFINITELY VAST
UNDERLYING " OCEAN" THAT IS OUR SUB-CONSCIOUS MIND. WAKE UP, AND OPEN YOUR MIND,

TRANSCEND ANY FEAR, ONLY THEN CAN YOUR SOUL BASK IN THE HEALING, ALMOST OVERWHELMING WARM RAYS
OF PURE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. THAT IS TRUE ENLIGHTENMENT , IT'S GONNA TAKE A HUGE MASS OF ENERGY CONSTANTLY BRINGING
EACH OTHER UP TO BRING US TO A HIGH ENOUGH VIBRATIONAL LEVEL TO COME BACK TOGETHER ON A HIGHER PLAIN OF EXISTENCE.

Ah, how good it is to flow!
A keyboard, an instrument, a punching bag, a mountain.

Pranayama is relaxing.