This version of the bardo thodol I got back in 2000, oxford university press. A great translation. I read through it somewhat many years back, though kind'of just chucked it off to the side and never had picked it up since. I've been re-reading much through it, still towards the beginning. I highly recommend this copy if the bardo thodol is of interest.

This is as much a guide for Life as it is for Death. Interpenetrated.

I'm leaving this thread fairly open for discussion, and I'll add my own thoughts, questions and whatnot as it progresses [if it does].

**You can also throw in your own versions/translations [if you have them] - to compare and contrast.

Since I'm somewhat lazy to type out page after page of literature - I'm going to snap page pictures as I go - of the pages that are of interest. I'll probably do a page or two per day, and go from there.

All very interesting, especially when contemplating the words, how they're said, and how they parallel the extremely immediate dissolution and profundity of DMT, learning to die.

Onward

After reading on the part 'the humming, rolling, crackling' during the moment that death has the individual, the 'psychic resultants of the disintegrating process' - beautifully put and I mean... how uncanny?

It's been said by several people [i.e: R. E. Schultes being one person] that these experiences brought on by these specific compounds/plants [i.e: DMT] - the potential of them being necrotogens, dry-runs for death, not 'death itself' but the seconds leading up to - which DMT - in his opinion can paint in stark contrast very rapidly.

I would very much like to develop a practice of this, for my personal use and perhaps to share with others. I can think of no more important work than to familiarize and comfort oneself regarding the inevitable he transition we will ALL make at some time. Being the absolute only certainty in this existence, is this not so? However with the only qualification that I have being my experience, I'm reluctant.

I love the term you use, necrotogen, except I'd probably use the spelling necrogen, since the word necrotic with the extra syllable means to putrify, which is certainly not my goal.

For me, my practice began with this step, from there moving into becoming more of a participant in and fulfilled with the process of living.

N,n DMT may be helpful with this, as far as learning how to let go into a strange and unfamiliar psychic environment, but ime, it is 5meo that is the necrogen, that mimics as far as I can know, most reliably the death experience. It does not produce the sound and fury of the former, but takes one as relentlessly as the course of the Planets into the void.

Sorry, nothing on the BT, although I've found that a very valuable document to help ME in my grief and bereavement over my mother recent passing by reading the daily passages. It is a wonderful book.

Thank you for the hint tatt.
pdf in attachment of the book you're referring to.

Hey null24

Yeah, I first heard that term from Schultes [he seemed to be a big proponent of that word], and I also like the term you use - necrogen, I think it's an interesting term, initially I'd thought of it [both terms] as kind've dark-sounding, then again that's just my own doings and prejudices.

Indeed - I think these pre-death studies say so much, and in that it certainly would seem to translate over into life undoubtedly - and what would translate over- I'm not entirely sure, though I hope to gain a better understanding of this text and start developing certain things within my life, then again DMt and the other tryptamines have definitely carried over into my life in some areas, though not as many areas as I would have liked [up and down issues with opiates/kratom for a handful of years, though this has been put behind me - they're no more]. Enough about me.

The line - "a participant in and fulfilled with the process of living" you said - I agree with. I try to take the good with the bad; those two ends for me - especially during some of my more intense DMt experiences - we're painted to be mutually interdependent, in some unforseen way they play off one another in some beyond-belief fashion, something that when you step back and look at it - as DMt has seemed to have shown me - they are one n' the same, down at that level of Being/Perceiving. Not to say that the world itself and it's people should let things slide into the dump, just saying that I think these two things will always be there - in some form - always in this perpetual play of never being resolved. The corporeal transitory nature of finite existence will always have these two flavors and all the things in between. I think it could possibly come down to being at peace with yourself and doing your part in your slice of Life, and potentially helping others also make this affordable leap. That alchemical gold..

I've said I was going to do 5-MeO-DMt for months now, still haven't, though that time is definitely coming to a head, and even though I havent had the experience - I've read your experience with it, and several books [Orocs T.P and R. Masters D.S.W], though I know reading and doing them are two completely separate things, though from what I've seen/read - I would agree with you. I think NN can reach insanely powerful depths, though it requires a high dosage and done in one-go, one single giant inhale; those few experiences were muuuuch muccch different than a typical 2-3 tokes on a bigger dosage; not keen to repeat, and those experiences are etched in my memory til the day I die. I agree though that MeO is probably the most reliable ticket to [insert impossible wordage here].

And i hope we all can continue a dialogue to some degree, I'l lbe reading this every day, and whatever passages stick out to me - I'll be damn sure to post them and not let them fall away. Kind've went off on a tangent, though that's okay, as long as it revolves somewhat around the OP - all is well.

I almost stopped talking about this stuff altogether, figured 'what the hell's the point?', then again that's probably not entirely the best attitude to have. I just enjoy this way too much to hang it up.

Wonderful Jees, great for anyone now interested, which I think this translation is one of the better ones. thanks for posting the pdf!

Oh goody, is this going to be a book club?! I have a translation I started that looks really good, "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche. This could be a good thread, maybe a good chance to pick it up my book again.

I definitely think the psychedelic "death" experience is the most profound part of psyches. Death must be a metaphor, after many trips i'm left with the feeling, we cannot die. Death is simply a ending which must therefore also be a beginning because there is efficiency in the universe.

Truly (to me), positively, lovingly, death is just another sign or teacher on living fully since life is all we can know while human. Death is guaranteed, live life to the fullest while you can, don't waist it, def don't be afraid of it. Death is the biggest mystery, be open minded because we truly can't know, and being open puts us fully in the present. And, death is a fundamental part of the definition of life, it signifies a change, and I think "choice" or free will also has to be part of the equation. Even if free will only exists in our mind, we can always choose to smile, and when we do, our world changes and sometimes the world changes. Ex, I smile, someone else responds in kind, and then maybe we talk and so many things can materialize!

I hope I am not off topic, the OP was a little vague to me. I hear more sounds on DMT then on shrooms, usually though I am fully tuned into the feelings running through me.

Perhaps not the best attitude. The good, worthwhile stuff is a challenge. Have your own experience but share it with us, we'd like to know, some of us might even relate.

Awesome, thanks! I think the translation is used is the same one aruse is using.


Yes, look forward to some good discussion on this...

'Book club' sounds good to me.

I agree with much of what you said - regarding life, eloquently put aruse. Not off topic at all, since this is a text for as much of Life as it is for the dying process. Yeah the OP - it's somewhat open ended, though hopefully it can revolve around this book, but definitely not going to be irked if things go a slightly different direction. Cheers

The only reason I decided to focus on DMT/5-Meo-DMT is because of the sudden shift, little time to react, rapid dissolution, etc; several of the hallmarks that seem to correlate with the bardo thodol, unlike mushrooms, LSD, mescaline - where there's a much more gradual onset. Definitely not putting those down at all, as I've had intense ego/boundary dissolving breakthrough experiences with those on several occasions, but I guess for the sake of dying/death - figured the rapidity of DMT/5-Meo-DMT would fit better - at least in the practice/art of the dying process.

Funny you mention the sounds - on the topic of these noises - the very first time I did DMT - it was freebase DMT from a friends older brother, and the classical 'cellophane ripping/crackling sound DID happen, though ever since that first time - I haven't had those sounds since in all the experience that I've had up until this point. Though aside from those specific sounds [and what the bardo thodol seems to mention/parallel] - now for me its akin to digitized-liquid-rushing sounds which will typically overtake all possible external noise - whether it be music playing, birds chirping, wind through the trees - it all becomes heavily overtaken by this digitized-liquid-rushing - and also these sounds and in complete accordance with the overall experience - it's all one thing, one event that's happening as it overtakes me; it just pours over me until I'm no more.

Thanks for posting

Hehe yeah, I guess I should've worded that a little better to make myself more clear. When I say 'what the hells the point?' - I mean that I felt that I should just focus on living my life and stop chasing my tail on something that is inherently ineffable [imho] [not to be known through words, conjecture or description], though with that said - I agree with you - I think it's very important to share these things, I rarely see the veteran members on here talk much on these things anymore, which is totally fine [we all have a diversity of living, lives to live, so it's understandable], though I think there's things to still be said and discussed. Words, while limited - are our medium [aside from art/music] to get what we can across; and honestly discussions like these are invaluable [even if I've mentioned similar things in the past; always something else remembered, something to bring forth to the table that hadn't been thought of prior ,not to mention new faces here giving their input - which is always exciting to me].

This passage I found interesting, as it mentions the brahmarandhra - which is essentially the passage/tract through which they try to secure during the individuals dying process [a good death] through the usage of reading/reciting specific passages from the bardo thodol to the individual dying - as the person apparently still has the mental faculties to generate content within their mind - which the people reciting - they appear to 'aid' or add content for the individual so that he/she has a more or less 'direct shot' 'fairly unimpeded'.

I also found this word they use - 'swoon' - which seems to be - in other words describing the 'clear-light-of-the-void' that's witnessed upon the persons loss of sense-objects [i.e: wordly objects]. This 'swoon' [clear light of the void witnessed at the moment of death] is also - as they say - the 'knower of objects' [I'd imagine the knower who is behind my own eyes looking out onto the world?].

**BTW, I'm still in the forward near the beginning of the book , this is going to be a lonng long thread.

And to add a bit more regarding 'the-clear-light-of-the-void' which one experiences upon the moment of death [this passage follows shortly after what I'd posted above].

I find the term 'mayik' [form] bodies interesting in this part, they seem to be saying [to me at least] that this clear-light-of-the-void - while 'clear/colorless' still has the ability to project these 'form bodies' - which are colored , though this innate groundlessness/formlessness from which these 'form bodies' spring is 'colorless'. [I also have read that the clear-light-of-the-void described as 'as brilliant as a thousand suns'; i.e: krishna in the bhagavad gita states this to arjuna during his divine remembrance/vision]

They also seem to clear up the misconception that 'Void' isn't absolute nothingness - as the word seems to paint. Though it seems to be outside the realm of the name and form show of Life [the gross physical]. Being, Is, Is-ness seems to be, still, very much a part of this state, also called 'asti' [as-is]. The witness still seems to abide here, in one way or another.

In my understanding "It" is the witness (mine,yours,everyones) , just without "content" (individuality).
Cosmic universal eternal Is-ness
The stage,the player and the audience

I am

Don't forget your shades!

Agreed, That's a good way of putting it; 'It Is' - the witness [mine, yours, everyones; without the relative content i.e: individualness].

~ Same page

Beautiful!

Your book uses the words, "no thingness."
And it seems to be a description of "no thingness" as we occasionally hear of it described but in a more specific instance. The void is not "nothing," or, void of things as we know them (it is that too but more), it is like grains in wood, there is a pattern but it is not recognizable to our common way of understanding or knowing. Out of this pattern, smaller segments do form "things" that are easier to name for us then naming the whole.

The "swoon," I still do not quite understand. Reading the passage, to me it sounds kinda like a "rush" of consciousness leaving and "C"onsciousness again becoming the only "thing."

So, my book is slightly different, mainly it doesn't have such a long intro, hehe, and I have already begun chapter 1 but I will try to maintain the same pace of reading (I too read slow ). I would like to summarize the Forward I have, written by the Dali Lama:


Death is natural, it is guaranteed, and it is also unpredictable.
Therefor, by not ignoring it we can minimize the suffering it brings and prepare for it.
Most of us would like a peaceful death. But we cannot expect one of those if our life has been full of violence and agitation.

So, "To die well we must learn how to live well. Hoping for a peaceful death, we must cultivate peace in our mind, and in our way of life."

To the Buddhists the actual experience of death is very important. Though we are up against great karmic forces we can influence our rebirth by generating a virtuous state of mind at death.

Through repeated acquaintance with the processes of death in meditation, an accomplished meditator can use his/her actual death to gain great spiritual realization.

No less significant than preparing for our own death is helping others to die well. Because the dying are often helpless, like babies, we should relieve them of discomfort and assist them to die with composure.


:this is mostly quoted directly at length.