DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 467 Joined: 06-Sep-2015 Last visit: 06-Feb-2024 Location: in your mind
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This subject has been discussed a lot. And yes, I have read heaps of old topics concerning this matter. So I should know by now. But there is a single aspect I have not yet encountered. Or I might have overlooked such a topic. And my specific question is: what is the difference between an ayahuasca trip or smoking DMT if you narrow this down to the entities you meet. Responses I am looking for are for example: - in my ayahuasca trips I met these huge snakes, but never did they occur in my smoking journeys - in my ayahuasca trips jesters never appeared but they sure showed up after my first inhalation - in both kind of trips ancient Chinese warriors occurred, but my God, what did they look different Don’t get me wrong, answers like ‘in an ayahuasca trip things go slow while in a smoked trip they go fast’ are of course welcome, but it is not the intention of this topic. By the way, I have never successfully taken ayahuasca but hope this will happen one day. Thank you folks. Quiet the mind and the soul will speak
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veni, vidi, spici
Posts: 3642 Joined: 05-Aug-2011 Last visit: 22-Sep-2017
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i encountered human beings on aya/pharma, i didnt on vaped Magic. INHALE, SURVIVE, ADAPT it's all in your mind, but what's your mind??? fool of the year
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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To address the issue as to why smoked dmt is different from Caapi plus oral leaf/dmt, it is critical in my opinion to look at the science of what is happening in the brain when the 5-ht1a receptors (which make up over 80% of the brain's 5-ht receptors) are shut down when caapi is taken. Serotonin reuptake inhibition takes place throughout the brain when 5-ht1a is agonized. Caapi and the harmalas heavily target them (due to the harmine, tetrahydroharmine, and harmaline)....notice how dmt does not shut down the 5-ht1a receptors, since it is so busy targeting the other remaining 20 percent of brain 5-ht receptors with heavy power....it can only do so much...this is where caapi comes in....to agonize the very important 5-ht1a, in other words there is teamwork going on. Not only that, but caapi is also strengthening the targeting seen at the 5-ht2a and adrenal receptors, raising them to the levels more commonly seen with entheogens such as mescaline or LSD, so not only is dmt targeting the 5-ht2a and adrenal receptors, but the harmalas are adding to the strength at these receptors as well. Don't under-estimate the importance of shutting down the brain's 5-ht1a serotonin filters, 5-HT1a receptors make up over 80% of brain receptors according to LSD scientist Dr. Nichols...this is paramount he saids in what is happening with all the important oral psychedelics such as LSD and mescaline and mushrooms. It could be subjectively theorized that shutting down these filters acts as a channel to the transcendental spiritual world when this lifting of filters takes place in the brain, just as Aldous Huxley talked about decades ago..."mind at large" is allowed to manifest for several hours, as the day-to-day serotonin filters have been lifted, which mainly act to keep us in survival mode, otherwise we might constantly marvel at the aesthetic color of a traffic light for example. Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010): http://journals.plos.org...371/journal.pone.0009019hxxp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019 Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min Quote:LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00 (make up >80% of brain 5-ht)
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.41
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.48
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.72
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.98
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.69
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.55
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.84
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.73
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.69
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.38
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.86
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.57 As we go thru day to day life, the brain serotonin filters are in place so that we will not be overwhelmed by the perception of the way things would appear to an un-filtered mind, or "Mind at Large" as Aldous Huxley describes it in "Doors of Perception" as "infinite or eternal". He also referred to the visions as coming from "the other world" in his book "Moksha". I prefer to think of it in similar terms as well "the spirit world" or "the other world". I've looked at the data on the majority of all the man-made so called entheogens and they all lack this all-important 5-ht1a targeting quality, either totally lacking it, or it is very weak at best, unlike the natural's which target these 5-ht1a receptors heavily. LSD is classified as a semi-synthetic. When caapi is taken with psychotria, there is a visual lighting up (and coloring) of the all important teaching, healing, historic, present & future visions from the caapi...interactive knowledge that would otherwise not make it to the mind with the daily filters in place imho, filters that allow us to go about our day to day lives of work, etc. Many of the visions appear with similar content just as Ayahuasca artist Pablo Amaringo paints them...none of the visions repeat, they are always different from session to session. Many rare mystics can access this plane of reality naturally without entheogens, but they are few and far between. With eyes open, the world appears beautiful, magical, transcendent & sound is magnified with music extremely beautiful sounding. strtman said: Quote:Responses I am looking for are for example:
- in my ayahuasca trips I met these huge snakes, but never did they occur in my smoking journeys
- in my ayahuasca trips jesters never appeared but they sure showed up after my first inhalation
- in both kind of trips ancient Chinese warriors occurred, but my God, what did they look different Yes, animals are quite common in Ayahuasca visions, see below from Shanon's "Antipodes of the Mind" (the best book on Ayahuasca in my opinion). Shanon mentions that the snake is the manifest spirit of the vine. Yaje study: Quote:The harmala alkaloids, with and without accompanying DMT-like compounds, have fascinated psychologists and others because of the unusually wide incidence of particular images. Outstanding in this regard are visions of tigers, snakes and naked women; the color blue seems to predominate when ayahuasca is taken without additives. Although this imagery is not universal, it is common, sometimes frightening, and is closely aligned to the archetypal symbolism that so fascinated Carl Jung.
When Naranjo gave harmaline in psychotherapeutic situations to city dwellers (people who had never been in the jungle), he observed that much of the imagery that was aroused had to do with snakes, panthers, jaguars and other large felines. The recurrence of such images led him to speculate about the action of harmaline on "the collective unconscious." 3rdI said: Quote:i encountered human beings on aya/pharma, i didnt on vaped Magic.
Yes, as 3rdI mention, encountering many human beings is prevalent with Ayahuasca closed eye visions, having dreamed Ayahuasca over 50 times, no where near the 125 times Benny Shannon has...but can verify that seeing the content below is quite common, especially when the Ayahuasca is heavy on caapi and low to medium on the light or leaf actives (around an estimated 20 to 60 mg leaf actives in the Hawaiian Psychotria, which act to brighten and color the visions) then the visions described in the following description from Shanon's classic "Antipodes of the Mind" are most likely to manifest in my experience: ~Shanon: Quote:"The second example was provided by a young man who partook of Ayahuasca in private sessions conducted in Europe. This individual is not amongst the informants whose data are analysed in this book; his report was communicated to me just when the typeset of this monograph was being sent to the publisher. I present this report as an illustrative example of the experiences of a first-timer. The following is a slightly edited synopsis of what this person saw during his first two sessions with the brew. I shall note that while the report is rich in details, the intoxication experienced was not especially strong; by the present structural typology, all items seen would be characterized as single, simple images.
Animals. Those seen most frequently were serpents, felines, and birds. Some of the serpents were ornate, like Chinese dragons; the felines included tigers and black pumas; the birds included parrots, peacocks, and toucans. Also seen were a galloping horse, dragons, monsters of all sorts, and evil beasts; with some of the latter blood was associated.
Many human persons were seen. Amongst these were Indians and a sensuous Caribbean dancer. A person present in the session appeared to have the face of a gorilla with the beak of a bird.
Palaces and mansions. Amongst the buildings seen were skyscrapers and pyramids. Also seen were interior decorations of buildings. These were very exquisitely ornamented; many were gilded.
Cities. Many different ones were seen; some had futuristic architecture.
Landscapes. These included forests, open deserts, river scenes, and scenes under water. Associated with the latter were corals and 'tornadoes offish'. Overall, the landscapes had an ambience of serenity and silence.
Especially frequent were disembodied eyes; many of these pertained to big cats. Other items noted: an Indian in a boat, an old woman turning white and transforming into a young girl, cars of the 1950s that were colourfully painted in a style which was 'rather kitsch', streams of gold.
The trees outside looked like goddesses.
Significantly, the items reported by this informant include all those that are typical of Ayahuasca visions. As such, this report, I find, is a good example supporting the cultural non-specificity of these visions. Kusel, H. (1965). "Ayahuasca Drinkers among the Chama Indians of Northeast Peru." Psychedelic Review, 6:58-66. Shanon (Antipodes of the Mind): Quote:This report is that of Kusel (1965: 64--65), a trader who lived in the upper Amazon for seven years and, in his words, 'was very skeptical and not interested in these low-class local manners'. Twice he partook of Ayahuasca and nothing happened; then there was the third time:
"The first visual experience was like fireworks. Then a continuously creating power produced a wealth of simple and elaborate flat patterns in colour. There were patterns that consisted of twining repeats, and others geometrically organized with rectangles or squares that were like Maya designs or those decorations which the Chamas [the Indians with whom Kusel partook of Ayahuasca , B.S.] paint on their thin, ringing pottery. The visions were in constant flux. First intermittently, then successively, the flat patterns gave way to deep-brown, purple or green depths, like dimly lighted caves in which the walls were too far away to be perceived.
At times snake-like stems of plants were growing profusely in the depths, at others these were covered with arrangements of myriads of lights that like dewdrops or gems adorned them. Now and then brilliant light illuminated the scene as though by photographic flash, showing wide landscapes with trees placed at regular intervals or just empty plains. A big ship witn many flags appeared in one of these flashes, a merry-go-round with people dressed in highly coloured garments in another.
At a certain point I felt, helplessly, that [the person administering the session] and his song could do anything with me, which made me slide... deeper and deeper into a place where I might lose consciousness. If, to reassure myself, I opened my eyes, I saw the dark walls of the jungle covered with jewels as if a net of lights had been thrown over it. Upon closing my eyes again, I could renew the procession of slick, well-lighted images.
The colour scheme became a harmony of dark brown and greens. Naked dancers appeared turning slowly in spiral movements. Spots of brassy lights played on their bodies which gave them the texture of polished stones. Their faces were inclined and hidden in deep shadows. Their coming into existence in the centre of the vision coincided with the rhythm of [the] song, and they advanced forward to the sides, turning slowly. I longed to see their faces.
At last the whole field of vision was taken up by a single dancer with inclined face covered by a raised arm. As my desire to see the face became unendurable, it appeared suddenly in full close-up with closed eyes. I know that when the extraordinary face opened them, I experienced a satisfaction of a kind I had never known. It was the visual solution of a personal riddle."
There is a theme to each session, and taking Ayahuasca is like entering a University just as Shanon writes. Below is an example of this different "theme" per each session...it's a 40 minute transcript from Shanon as he talked into a tape recorder as he recorded what he saw with closed eyes: ~Shanon (from Antipodes of the Mind): Quote:By way of conclusion, I present two additional examples. Unlike all other examples in this chapter, which consist of specific visualizations pertaining to specific content items, these examples are records of sessions. They cite or summarize the various visualizations experienced by one individual drinker in one setting. I bring them in order to give the reader a more direct feel of the visionary experience induced by Ayahuasca.
The first example consists of a 'real-time' verbatim report of what I saw in one session in which I partook of Ayahuasca by myself. I spoke aloud describing what I was seeing and notes were taken by the person who watched me. This session is not part of the core corpus and it is the only session of which I have such a recording. Overall, I would characterize this session as one of moderate strength. In it, there were no grand visions and most of the visualizations in it are snapshots and relatively simple scenes. Furthermore, in this session I had very few ideations and no special psychological insights or spiritual experiences whatsoever. Yet, I find this report to be especially valuable in portraying the general flavour of Ayahuasca visions. Manifest in it is a fairy tale-like ambience and an overall air of magnificence and enchantment. Also featuring in the report are several details that are characteristic of Ayahuasca visions in general—these include fire (note the various ways it is incorporated within the narrative of the vision), light-producing objects, carriages, and processions. Also recurrent in the report are turning movements, upward movements, and looking forward far into the distance. One comment made by a person seen in this visual sequence is a good example of how ideas relate to Ayahuasca visualizations. The entire sequence lasted about forty minutes:
A golden crystal chalice.
Flowers. In the flowers there are birds and insects and the birds go up and up.
A wheel is turning and there is a rod that is turning round and round. From it, a fire ignites.
An old man holds a taper and from it the fire climbs up and up.
A futuristic city.
A Chinese king is sitting and turning his parasol. Now he is in his study. In the background, birds are kissing one another.
A great hall—like an animated movie.
There is a code here—like that of Morse or the genetic code. The code is constituted by many, many dots, the density between which varies. All this is a language calling to be deciphered.
There is something that pushes up and up. It is like a mountain train. All the time it goes up and up.
A car from the 1920s. Delightfully magnificent. From it emerge light and flowers. Advancing with this light, we pass along gold-plated walls and come out through a staircase made out of gold and ivory. The steps go up and down and reach a theatre.
Up in the heavens there is a woman escorted by a man. In the woman's hand there is a torch that swirls. Lights come out of it in the form of flags and the flags turn into hats full of gems. The gems are sparkling.
A scene in Europe in the sixteenth or perhaps the eighteenth century. Knights are riding. They are mounted upon magic motorcycles full of colours and light. All is like a cartoon and enchanted. It is all part of big procession. There are also small dwarfs there. Two of them are holding a banner with the insignia of the sovereign.
An Indian is smoking a big pipe. Through an old telescope, a man is peering into the far reaches of the universe. A view of the planet Earth turning round and round.
Beautiful gardens like Versailles and the Tuilleries.
There are ballerinas there. Like a cabaret. Their thighs are exposed. One woman gets to the balustrade and is watching the audience.
The Indian is smiling. The message is that 'all of these are the expressions of the same source, a source of bounty and grace'.
In a King's reception hall. There are chalices full of wine. Long processions of carriages proceed further and further. Slowly, all the time, the horsemen are pushing forward. In the hall, the seats are made out of silver. There is a feast. A big pot is placed in the middle. A fruit salad is offered in goblets of finely polished, very clear glass. Slowly, the chef pours some sort of syrup or gooey topping. The sauce covers the fruit and then it ascends upwards.
An elephant lifts up its trunk high and looks far, far forward. Up there are birds and they are looking in my direction. There are flowers, and butterflies are flying from flower to flower. All are washed in the light of the sun.
Women are dancing. Carriages come one after the other and the wine flows. An officer approaches a carriage and salutes. The footman bows and opens the carriage's door. The Queen is stepping out. From TIHKAL (harmaline section): Quote:
(with 5 g Peganum harmala seeds, ground, in capsules) "At about 1:45 tinnitus was obvious. At 2:00 precise movements were problematical and nystagmus was noticeable. Mild nausea and diarrhea, but no vomiting. I was sensitive to light and sound, and retired to a dark room. Hallucinations were intense, but only with the eyes closed. They consisted, initially, of a wide variety of geometrical patterns in dark colors, getting more intense as time went on. They disappeared when the eyes were opened. Although the loose bowels and nausea were pretty constant through the first part of the trip, I was not afraid. It was as if the "fear circuits" in the brain had been turned off. The geometric shapes evolved into more concrete images, peoples faces, movies of all sorts playing at high speed, and animal presences such as snakes. It was like vivid and intense dreaming except that I remembered most of it afterwards. In another hour things became manageable and I could go out in public. My sex drive was pleasantly enhanced, and I slept very well."
Meteor (vine only): Quote:
Absolutely-- cappi in and of itself is psycotropic.
And it is legal.
Double the dose for the tea. 60 grams instead of 30 to start (though higher amounts probably will not hurt)
The vine is powerful by itself, and the images that it can elicit are quite profound.
Dark, blues, greens-- jungle like landscapes with snakes, cats-- amazing things.
By contrast, Peganum harmala is more likely to make you sick before you have anywhere near the effects that cappi causes.
With all the discussion lately about how important DMT (illegal) is, (and we know that it is) the fact is that the Vine of the Soul (Ayahuasca) is the vine itself.
It is the core of the experience, its trunk if you will. Though P. harmala makes a good substitute when used with the admixture plants-- P harmala, in and of itself, is not the trunk, as only Banisteriopsis cappi (Ayahuasca) can be.
It is good to touch the trunk now and then.
And the images, insights and such are no less profound even if they lack the brightness that the admixture plants provide.
A dark jungle landscape can be a very interesting place to be.
Phalanx (40 grams caapi only): Quote:I tripped well for about 30-40 mins. I kept seeing people of all sorts. Buildings in distant lands. Houses, fancy rooms, cars.
The hallucinations were weak in the sense that they were semi-transparent with weak colouring. However, their clarity and detail was ASTOUNDING. It was like looking at reflections in black marble or on a tv tube. Crystal clear.
in one vision, I was in a room with a tiled floor. i knelt down and looked at my reflection in a black tile. I could clearly see myself and the rest of the room. Now that is what I call clarity.
In another, I saw the back of the head of a man with long black hair, spanish, standing outside in a town square in the sun. I could clearly see the sunlight reflecting off his hair. i could see the individual hairs. The detail was exquisite.
On one hand i am disappointed i never got round to drinking the pv, but on the other i am thrilled to have experienced a proper pure vine trip for the first time. I think 69ron sums it up pretty well when he said long ago: 69ron on harmalas: Quote:Ayahuasca is Banisteriopsis caapi. It contains mostly harmine, thh & harmaline. B. caapi itself contains no DMT and can be used as is to produce visionary states that are like mental day dreams which lack true visual content. Often admixtures are used to increase the visual content of the ayahuasca dreams. Most admixture plants contain DMT.
Harmine & harmaline & thh used alone, can produce a mild dreamy psychedelic experience in which daydreams or lucid dreams can be experienced if the user chooses to do so. These dreams from the harmalas alone are vague and lack visual content, but usually have story lines and can be quite complex just like a real dream. The harmalas allow one to go in and out of dream consciousness at will. It takes some practice to learn how to enter a lucid dream with the harmalas alone. The harmalas won’t make you enter a lucid dream. You have to do it yourself by allowing your mind to drift off into a lucid dream.
DMT used alone, produces an intense visual experience, often very chaotic and fast moving, and quite amazing to watch. The visions of DMT alone usually lack meaningful content. The DMT visions are often just constantly morphine colors and shapes. Most of it makes absolutely no sense. Rarely will the visuals present to you a full blown dream with people, places, a story line, etc. But this does sometimes happen. But usually you just get a bunch of bazaar visions that are difficult to understand.
When combined, as in ayahuasca, the harmalas brings a dreamy quality to the DMT experience that makes it more like one is experiencing an actual dream, not just a bunch of fancy colors. With the two together, you have the visuals of DMT, plus the dream content of the harmalas. The harmalas are the boss here in this combination if used in ayahuasca proportions where the harmalas are not just used as an MAOI but is used specifically to allow dream consciousness to be entered by the user. DMT is just an additive used to increase the visual portion of the harmala induced dreams.
Using harmalas in very low doses, just as an MAOI, is not the same as using properly made ayahuasca. If the harmalas are used in low doses just for it’s MAOI effects, the trip lacks dream content and is just a bunch of bazaar DMT visual effects. This is not ayahuasca-like, it’s just orally activated DMT. That’s not the same. Its true that some ayahuasca is prepared this way, but such Ayahuasca is considered inferior by most natives. With Ayahuasca, the DMT is just an additive, not the main course. This is why Ayahausca made with only caapi is still called ayahuasca and considered nearly as powerful as Ayahuasca made with additive plants containing DMT.
This is something a lot of people don’t get. Ayahuasca is not simple orally activated DMT. It is the dream consciousness effects of the harmalas that are at play in ayahuasca. In order to experience lucid dreams from harmine without DMT, you need to practice a lot. But once you know how to do it, you don’t need DMT added to it anymore, unless you want the extra visual depth that DMT adds to the dreams.
So, “Dmt Or Ayahuasca?”, well that question is a personal question. Some people prefer DMT-less ayahuasca. Some people prefer just orally activated DMT. Some people prefer ayahuasca with a side order of DMT. Some people prefer the truly bazaar effects of smoked DMT alone.
My personal opinion is that DMT alone is FUN and can be quite frightening. It’s like a roller coaster ride and I like roller coasters. But don’t expect a deep meaningful life changing experience from it. Its pure visual FUN and nothing more. If I want a more meaningful experience I’d use an oral ayahuasca extract, or a smoked Yopo extract (not as effective as ayahuasca because Yopo is low on harmala-like alkaloids)
Authentic ayahuasca, high in harmine, thh & harmaline, and low on DMT, is like entering a full blown 3D dream with dream characters, storylines, etc. This can be a life changing experience. It’s more like sitting in a theater for several hours absorbing a story that’s meaningful because its about you. You leave with memories of places, things, people, etc., and possibly a new view on life.
Agree with all 69ron said above...my only differing opinion being that Ayahuasca dream-like visions have less do with a "story that is about you" and common place themes then it has to do with the content that Shanon mentions below, which I find to be most accurate after keeping diaries of my own visions and comparing them with those of Shanon (who had taken Ayahuasca over 125 times). In other words, the content of Ayahuasca "visions" are very different from the content seen in sleeping dreams. Shanon, "Antipodes of the Mind": Quote:The special character of the semantic space of Ayahuasca visions may also be marked by way of contrast. Comparative and contrastive analyses that I have conducted indicate that the content items that appear in these visions are different from items often seen in dreams.
As further described in the Appendix, I have compared the content items of my dreams to those seen in the corpus of my Ayahuasca visions. Very little overlap was found between the content items that appear in the two sets of data. None of the content items characteristic of the visions are encountered in the dreams nor are those that usually appear in the dreams found in the visions.
** In particular, in my dreams I have never seen tigers or serpents, palaces or scenes from ancient civilizations, royalty or other special beings. Never have I seen places that may be characterized as phantasmagoric or magical, nor have I ever seen historical or mythological scenes or ones having to do with the meaning of either the human predicament, Life and Creation, Nature, or the Cosmos. Furthermore, my dreams never had any religious or spiritual quality nor did they ever seem to convey a message or serve as a vehicle for instruction.
Rather, by and large, the content items that appear in my dreams are common place. In them, I usually see persons who are significant in my life, scenes echoing events that happened to me in real life, images incorporating details often insignificant, such as telephone numbers that I have encountered during the course of the preceding day or two, scenes that reflect my personal conflicts, issues with which I am especially concerned, my fears, my wishes and desires. In general, these do not appear in the visions I have had with Ayahuasca.
From Gayle Highpine, "Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca": http://www.ayahuasca.com...the-origin-of-ayahuasca/hxxp://www.ayahuasca.com/amazon/botany-ecology/unraveling-the-mystery-of-the-origin-of-ayahuasca/ Quote:In the western world, Ayahuasca acquired a new definition: It was now, by definition, the combination of Banisteriopsis caapi and a DMT-containing plant. Ayahuasca became, by definition, “orally active DMT.” The first anthropologist to adopt the new definition seems to have been Luis Eduardo Luna in 1984. Luna spent time with Terence McKenna, absorbing his perspective, before beginning his fieldwork. Since then, anthropologists have increasingly adopted this definition and filtered their observations through it. The preeminence of the Ayahuasca vine in the indigenous Amazonian world became the elephant in the living room of Ayahuasca studies, with a tacit agreement to pretend it doesn’t exist.
The leaves were Ayahuasca’s “helpers,” I was told, and their purpose was to “brighten and clarify” the visions. The vine is like a cave, and the leaf is like a torch you use to see what is inside the cave. The vine is like a book, and the leaf is like the candle you use to read the book. The vine is like a snowy television set, and the leaf helps to tune in the picture. There was a subtle attitude that the need for strong leaf was the sign of a beginner: An experienced ayahuasquero could see the visions even in low light
Ayahuasca vine is not visionary in the same way as DMT. The leaf helps illuminate the content, but the teachings are credited to the vine. Vine visions are “frequently associated with writing, to a code that is present in visions…or in the ‘books’ where the spirits keep the secrets of the forest.” The vine is The Teacher, The Healer, The Guide. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts. This is why it is the vine, not the leaf, that is classified by the type of vision it gives. “For them the vine is, in truth, a living guide, a friend, a paternal authority”.
Listening to the Vine
While I was living in the village, someone began the process of shamanic apprenticeship. There was a series of ceremonies with brews of special strength for that purpose; brews with enormous quantities of vine. About two to three pounds of fresh vine per person was used (about 25 to 35 times the amount needed for MAOI inhibition). Those were powerful experiences indeed.
He would learn to navigate the strongest of brews with clear focus, and be undistracted by any amount of DMT fireworks.
The Ayahuasca artist Pablo Amaringo, "The Shaman -- the Visions" tregar attached the following image(s):  Pablo Amaringo.jpg (240kb) downloaded 1,038 time(s).You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 4031 Joined: 28-Jun-2012 Last visit: 05-Mar-2024
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strtman wrote:... my specific question is: what is the difference between an ayahuasca trip or smoking DMT if you narrow this down to the entities you meet... You might insert key word 'entities' in your title so the title represents better your inquiry. 
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 467 Joined: 06-Sep-2015 Last visit: 06-Feb-2024 Location: in your mind
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Thank you both for the responses. Hope to get more input from the other folks. 3rd𝖨 , never seen human beings on smoked DMT ? That’s odd. trager, first of all thank you for your in-depth post. Did not expect this and it is by far the most extensive one I got. The first two paragraphs are not that easy to understand. I have to let it soak in a while. Your given quotes are worth reading. And I love the attachment. Quiet the mind and the soul will speak
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Professional Tracker
Posts: 620 Joined: 29-Jan-2017 Last visit: 08-Jan-2021
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I'd call that a 10 outta 10 response there tregar. A+.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 467 Joined: 06-Sep-2015 Last visit: 06-Feb-2024 Location: in your mind
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Jees, I guess we both posted on the same time yesterday. Did not see your post until now. Due to your response I changed the title. Thanks for the input. Quiet the mind and the soul will speak
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DMT-Nexus member
 
Posts: 4612 Joined: 17-Jan-2009 Last visit: 07-Mar-2024
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yeah tregar, awesome post, & thank you 
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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Thanks! much appreciated. Great thread...as long as the sessions are heavy on vine, the closed eye visions really are as beautiful, colorful, powerful and enchanting as Pablo Amaringo paints them...some of the content I've seen in dreams: animals, frequently seen very beautiful naked women, incredible landscapes, waterfalls, enchanted gardens, palaces, beautiful female faces seperated from the body, all manner of ancient civilizations, futuristic cities, distant islands, carnivals & scenes of entertainment (frequency is unusually high just as Shanon notes), artwork...all seen as if just created fresh and a new, remarkable visions... Where do all the visions come from? We get a clue when we read that Caapi & the harmalas are similar to ibogaine, only "more exotic" in the visions they induce, compared to the more personal visions of ibogaine. Since there is harmine, tetrahydroharmine & harmaline working in tandem in Caapi, I would venture to say this is one of the secrets of Caapi; as 3 herbs in combination are often more powerful in their effects than just one. From "Psycotherapeutic Possibilities of New Fantasy-Enhancing Drugs" Clinical Toxicology, 2(2), pp. 209-224, June 1969: Naranjo describes the oneirophrenia differences between harmaline and ibogaine as follows: Quote:It is the harmaline and ibogaine intoxications that are of greatest interest from the point of view of psychological exploration or of psychotherapeutic endeavor. At the dosage level of 4-5mg/kg both harmaline and ibogaine elicit subjective reactions such as will be described in the following pages, which last for approximately 6 hr. In addition to this, about 50% of the subjects receiving either drug experience dizziness, incoordination, nausea, and vomiting at some point or other in the session. (page 219): Compared to the effects of harmaline, those of ibogaine seem less exotic. From page 390 of "Psychotropic Properties of the Harmala Alkaloids", Claudio Naranjo, Department of Anthropological Medicine University of Chile, Santiago, Chile: Quote:Moreover, harmaline appears to be more hallucinogenic than mescaline (the most visually acting drug in its chemical group), both in terms of the number of images reported and their realistic quality with closed eyes. In fact some subjects felt that certain scenes which they saw had really happened, and that they had been as disembodied witnesses of them in a different time and place. This matches the experience of South American Shamans who drink Ayahuasca for purposes of divination.
The remarkable vividness of imagery viewed under the effect of harmaline, together with phenomena such as (with open eyes) double contours and persistence of afterimages (closed eyes), had led us to suspect a retinal effect of the drug, and this suspicion was confirmed with brain cortex readings.
Other recurrent visual phenomena were a rapid lateral vibration in the field of vision and double or multiple contours in objects, especially when these were in motion or when the subject's eyes turned away from them. Some described lightning-like flashes.
With closed eyes, imagery was abundant and most often vivid and bright colored, with a predominance of red-green or blue-orange contrasts. Longdream-like sequences were much more frequent for harmaline than for mescaline. Certain themes, such as felines, negroes, eyes, and flying are frequent and have been reported elsewhere.
From page 387 of "Psychotropic Properties of the Harmala Alkaloids", Claudio Naranjo,Department of Anthropological Medicine University of Chile, Santiago, Chile Quote:Tetrahydroharmine (THH), the reduction product of harmaline, and one of the major components of caapi, is another substance studied by Gunn and shown to be similar to its more saturated homo-logs, but three times less active than harmaline. Racemic tetrahydroharmine, up to 300mg by mouth had subjective effects similar to 100mg of harmaline. A single experiment suggested that racemic tetrahydroharmine was about 1/3rd as active as harmaline. Shanon wrote how one of his interviewers encountered an entity that promised to show him the secrets of the universe if only the man would leave to come with him, the man declined. However, the entity did show the man complex mathematical equations and scientific knowledge before posing the question to him. As Benny Shanon mentions in his book, the snake is the manifest spirit of the vine, and is seen quite often especially during the earlier sessions with Ayahuasca...it is sometimes seen intertwined with another like DNA strands--I've encountered this along with dragons intertwined like DNA. Shanon asked why serpents and animals and culture is seen so often with Ayahuasca and the Shaman replied "At first Ayahuasca shows you this world, then later it shows you other worlds" Ayahuasca as Shanon explains in his book is somehow able to channel one into the "Akashic record" which is theorized by some to be in the astral plane and contains a record of all past, present & future events that can be tapped into and read, perhaps explaining the Clairvoyance powers some report with Caapi & the harmalas. You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1760 Joined: 15-Apr-2008 Last visit: 06-Mar-2024 Location: in the Forest
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Here's my anecdotal two cents . With vaped spice over time I began to experience some scary entities. These are wasp-like creatures that move in and feel as though they are taking over my mind and body in a parasitic kind of way. Its a repeated experience that can be very specific. I have learned to deal with it although it has put a little damper on my travels. I drank aya in Colombia in March and described these entities to the Shaman. He seemed to have no reference for this at all. Although he did say he would investigate it in the next ceremony. We never followed up on that. The Shaman have some very basic and beautiful story lines regarding these experiences. Knowing how they approach the whole process has helped me in my own dealings with these plants. I like the simple approach and am attempting to adopt it for myself. I think there is a vast uncharted subject area that speaks to how we in the west, through cultural conditioning interpret both aya and vaped spice experiences overall. My aya experiences were not at all like vaped spice, they were extremely different for me. it was deeply personal and healing in ways I never thought possible. I spoke to many different people about they're experiences and quite a few had full on DMT-like visions on the same brew. The experiences varied greatly and included everything from no visions to death experiences and full blown DMT vision states. I believe Treger's very thorough response spoke to potential chemical reasons why there are specific differences in experiences. There's quite alot of thoughtful info to consider there. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke http://vimeo.com/32001208
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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Felnik said: Quote:Here's my anecdotal two cents . With vaped spice over time I began to experience some scary entities.
These are wasp-like creatures that move in and feel as though they are taking over my mind and body in a parasitic kind of way. Its a repeated experience that can be very specific. I have learned to deal with it although it has put a little damper on my travels. I drank aya in Colombia in March and described these entities to the Shaman. He seemed to have no reference for this at all. Although he did say he would investigate it in the next ceremony. We never followed up on that. The Shaman have some very basic and beautiful story lines regarding these experiences. Knowing how they approach the whole process has helped me in my own dealings with these plants. I like the simple approach and am attempting to adopt it for myself. I think there is a vast uncharted subject area that speaks to how we in the west, through cultural conditioning interpret both aya and vaped spice experiences overall.
My aya experiences were not at all like vaped spice, they were extremely different for me. it was deeply personal and healing in ways I never thought possible.
I spoke to many different people about they're experiences and quite a few had full on DMT-like visions on the same brew. The experiences varied greatly and included everything from no visions to death experiences and full blown DMT vision states. I believe Treger's very thorough response spoke to potential
chemical reasons why there are specific differences in experiences. There's quite alot of thoughtful info to consider there.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Arthur C. Clarke Thanks for sharing the differences between your vaped spice experiences and authentic Ayahuasca sessions Felnik, very interesting & the detail you share comes through well in your writing, and how the Shaman was unable to come up with a reference for the entities appearing with vaped spice, this is most likely due imho to the completely different experience with an oral brew heavy in caapi with low to moderate leaf vs. vaped spice. All of Shanon's 125 Ayahuasca experiences were with Caapi + psychotria, my own 50 dreams the same, with Caapi + Hawaiian psychotria. In past dreams, the Hawaiian psychotria (safe & traditional--no other weird alkaloid stuff in it but pure light actives) amounts were between 15g and 30g, with 15g in estimation containing about 30mg actives and the 30g leaf amount having about 60mg actives...going above the 35g leaf amounts is not recommended, territory didn't enjoy being in (technical knockout of the ego, intensity beyond strong, and you're here for a good 90 minutes before the intensity drops down several notches)...dreamed that level a few times, done that, been there, never again. The lower normal levels were Heavenly however. The 15g to 30g leaf amounts were plenty, moderately strong to strong. The time of day the leaf is picked will also influence the amount of actives in the leaf, which can vary, and sometimes a 30g leaf brew was encountered that was too strong to liking, that's when learned to judge strength of leaf brew by it's bitterness...when brewed down to 3oz, the relative strength of the leaf brew could be determined by the bitterness left on the tongue, too bitter would indicate a leaf brew too strong, and would call for dream use of less of it added to the caapi portion. A cotton ball stuffed into a large clean automotive funnel was excellent for removing all the dirt like black muddy sediment that caused nausea and purging (as it irritates the intestines) when the hot tea-colored leaf brew was poured through it, changing the cotton out when it clogged. This way the only nausea felt was related to using too high a leaf amount, which could be reduced to zero by using proper amounts of leaf. The dynamics of the leaf brew digestion in this hot boiled down liquid form was quite impressive, potent in dreams, a nibblet of cream cheese could be used to kick it out should the actives get trapped in the gall bladder, in the Amazon the oils in the plants also serve this purpose, but still trapping of actives could occur. Highpine writes "There was a subtle attitude that the need for strong leaf was the sign of a beginner: An experienced ayahuasquero could see the visions even in low light." True, as little as 12g of leaf was plenty for lighting up & coloring the visions when the caapi amount was heavy. The best way in my opinion to understand the differences with the whole entity subject is to study the paintings of Pablo Amaringo in his book "Ayahuasca visions" and to read all 500 pages of Benny Shanon's "Antipodes of the Mind" in which he not only describes all of his own visions, but hundreds of other interviewers. By and large the content of Ayahuasca visions (which also appear in Amaringo's paintings) are as follows...notice the detail appearance of "strange entities", these would be classified under the details category "creatures and beings": From page 416 "Antipodes of the Mind". These are some of the most commonly seen various content items (the core corpus) that Benny Shannon found that he himself and hundreds of interviewers saw with closed eyes on the Caapi + leaf brews: The use of these plants span many thousands of years of history, back to a time where it was once consumed and revered for its ability to bring someone into contact with spiritual realities, the obtaining of secret inner knowledge, and visionary experiences of a divine world. Quote: Quote:Super-categories:
Human beings, Natural animals, Phatasmagoria/supernatural, Architecture, Objects, Plants, Personal biography
Categories:
Mammals, Objects of art and magic, Birds, Royal and religious figures, Landscapes, Palaces and temples, Non-natural animals, Heavenly scenes, Reptiles, Divine beings, Cities, Vehicles
Details:, Felines, Waterscapes, Flowers, Objects of gold, Serpents, Processions, Dancing women, Naked women, Forests, Temples, Semi-divine beings, Royal figures, Enchanted cities, Open landscapes, Palaces, Angels and transparent beings, Gardens, Royal objects
Details: Serpents, Nymphs, ETs and spaceships, Royal figures, Flowers, Royal objects, Chimera and winged beings, Enchanted cities, Religious figures, Angels and transparent beings, Waterscapes, Objects of gold, Forests, Armoury, Guides and guardians, Felines, Egyptian scenes, Personal acquaintances, ancient civilizations, celestial scenes, creatures and beings, Encounters with the Divine, Sea creatures, Insects, Celestial voyages, Cities, Mythology, Symbols, Heavenly scenes Ayahuasca artist Pablo Amaringo -- "Animals vision" painting: tregar attached the following image(s): Palo Amaringo Ayahuasca vision painting.jpg (243kb) downloaded 807 time(s).You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1760 Joined: 15-Apr-2008 Last visit: 06-Mar-2024 Location: in the Forest
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Benny Shanon's "Antipodes of the Mind" looks amazing how did i miss that one ? wow ! thank you for that The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke http://vimeo.com/32001208
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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Felnik said: Quote:Benny Shanon's "Antipodes of the Mind" looks amazing how did i miss that one ? wow !
thank you for that.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Arthur C. Clarke You're very welcome Felnik..the 20 reviews on a book site are all five-star, he spent 8 years in the Amazon and at UDV temples drinking the sacred potion while writing the book, I'm not the only one who has said it is destined to be a classic forever just like Pablo Amaringo's "Ayahuasca Visions" paintings book, Aldous Huxley's "Doors of Perception", and Albert Hofmann's "LSD My Problem Child". In post #3 above, notice how the attached Pablo Amaringo painting "The Shaman -- the visions" contains the following elements that Shanon mentions as being common content in the visions -- the 6 bubbles of faces to the left and right of painting, these are classified as "personal biography" visions, along with the naked women seen, nymphs in the water, birds, dolphins, snakes -- all in an enchanted jungle setting with background waterscapes (more common content). The point being that just as Shanon mentions, Pablo Amaringo's paintings portray much of the common visionary content of Ayahuasca; agree. Famous author Graham Hancock also wrote extensively on his Ayahuasca Visions, and even compared his smoked dmt visions to those of Ayahuasca: Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 428: Quote:My experience with smoked DMT was qualitatively different from the realms and beings ayahuasca introduced me to. For whereas the ayahuasca worlds seemed rich, luxurious, and abundant in the transformations of organic and supernatural life, DMT brought me to a world--or to some aspect of a world--that appeared from the outset to be highly artificial, constructed, inorganic, and in essence technological.
Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 50
On another night the ayahuasca visions begin very differently, After an initial bout of geometry and ladders I find myself inside a building--a huge structure a bit like the ancient Egyptian temple of Edfu at its entrance but opening out into something quite other. Fantastic architecture on an extraordinary scale. I have a computercam point of view and can fly around, zoom in or zoom out anywhere. I fly up into a vast dome, examine the patterns of nested curves that decorate its ceiling.
Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 56
27 January: The visions begin with 20 minutes of geometry; then suddenly I find myself looking, at very close range, into a shockingly "alien" face, grey in colour, with a wide domed forehead and a narrow pointed chin--heart-shaped like the faces of the "light-beings" I'd encountered a few days earlier. It's eyes are multi-segmented like those of a fly. Frankly, it's the sort of image you'd expect to see adorning some far fetched X-files expose, and since aliens and ETs have never been interests of mine, I'm really puzzled to experience such a hallucination.
A short while later, out of a background of shifting geometrical patterns, a beautiful Egyptian goddess appears, I see only her head and headdress clearly. She's in full regalia. Then she vanishes as abruptly and mysteriously as she arrived.
Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 64
The Udv session runs from 9pm until about 1:20am. I drink my brew at 9:20 pm and am having good visions by 9:45. The first hour after drinking --until 10:20--passes in what feels, subjectively, like an instant.
My visions are familiar and positive--perhaps more brightly lit, less "darkness visible" than before. What I remember clearly are large snakes (again!), light-coloured boas, huge, coiling around each other and around branches. I also get pyramid shapes built around a lattice or framework of some kind.
But the best part of the evening is when the same Egyptian goddess whom I saw in Peru reappears--this time on the left side of my visual field. At first she is concealed, in shadow. I look closely and see a slender female figure holding a dark blue mask in front of her face--one of those masks on a stick. Then she removes the mask and I see her face clearly in the instant before she vanishes once more. She glows the colour of molten gold.
Notice the detail Shanon writes about when it comes to even "other places" seen with Ayahuasca: Quote:Other places
Lastly, there are places of entertainment. These seem to fall into two main subtypes. One is that of places such as bars and cabarets, often lascivious and somewhat lewd. The other may be characterized as ludic. In these, the atmosphere is gaily frivolous; they include amusement parks and circuses. The frequency of facilities pertaining to amusement parks in the visions is, it seems to me, disproportionately high. Especially noted are carousels and Ferris wheels. Interestingly a merry-go-round is also mentioned by Naranjo (1973) in his experimental study of harmaline. Reichel-Dolmatoff (1975:30): Quote:When I have partaken of Ayahuasca, my head has immediately begun to strain, then I have seemed to enter an aerial voyage, where I thought I saw the most charming landscapes, great cities, lofty towers, beautiful parks, and other delightful things. Then all at once I found myself deserted in a forest and attacked by beasts of prey against which I tried to defend myself. I began to come around, but with a feeing of excessive drowsiness, headache, and sometimes general malaise. Ayahuasca artist Pablo Amaringo "Transpersonalspirit" tregar attached the following image(s): Transpersonalspirit.jpg (192kb) downloaded 650 time(s).You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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Attached paper from Dr. Naranjo examines the similarities and differences of harmaline to Ibogaine, after reading this paper you begin to understand the influence of the harmala alkaloids on the visions, and why Caapi is considered the "main course", with the "leaf or light" supplying brightness, color, etc. We get a clue as to where all the visions come from when we read that Caapi & the harmalas are similar to ibogaine, only "more exotic" in the visions they induce, compared to the more personal visions of ibogaine. Since there is harmine, tetrahydroharmine (1/3rd the visionary power of harmaline) & harmaline working in tandem in Caapi, would venture to say this is one of the secrets of Caapi; as 3 herbs in combination are often more powerful in their effects than just one. You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 4612 Joined: 17-Jan-2009 Last visit: 07-Mar-2024
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The only thing I have to add is that years back when I was dosing pharmahuasca consistently, that was one experience for me that reliably brought very distinct entities into the room I was in. Very clear and concise, relative to the hyperspatial structures and interlocking motifs that flowed in, around and through the room and myself. Maybe had to do with the fact that I was taking freebase caapi alks and yellow/white dmt freebase? I posted in another thread sometime back about these exact experiences. Very profound. Though caapi tea and the several different dmt plant admixtures I've used over the years [chacruna, mimosa, acacia] never brought this style of experience forth. Could be a number of things I guess. All these tea experiences though were very powerful, just not in the way that pharmahuasca had done for me. Interesting stuff. 
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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Very interesting tatt....will add that over the many dream experiences with caapi + psychotria over the years there was always a female spirit presence (if you would like to call entity) that guided the journey, and always welcomed seeing her, she would take different beautiful female appearances, perhaps could be called "the Queen of the Forest" as I've read Shamans refer to her. Know I've talked alot about the visions in the dreams, but should also add that every dream was deeply healing and refreshing just as Felnik mentions above -- like the serotonin system in the brain being reset as well. These natural oral entheogens always seem to have a very ancient and wise guide for the experience. Felnik: (post #10) Quote:My aya experiences were not at all like vaped spice, they were extremely different for me. it was deeply personal and healing in ways I never thought possible. Notice the two quotes below from both Dr. Hofmann and Benny Shanon commenting on the mystical experience and an informant who said "the only hope for humanity is spiritual" after taking Ayahuasca...in these quotes we notice the "deeply personal and healing" potential Felnik mentions coming from these experienced psychonauts as well: From back cover of "LSD My Problem Child" by Dr. Hofmann: Quote:Underlying it all is Dr. Hofmann's powerful conclusion that mystical experience may be our planet's best hope for survival. From the Ayahuasca classic "Antipodes of the Mind" by Benny Shanon: Quote:Of special significance are panoramic historical visions. These depict several historical episodes which together present a moral regarding the human predicament. As noted in the Prologue, one of my very first visions included a panorama of human history: the injustice it manifests on the one hand, and the bounty of culture and art notably, religious it produces.
One informant told me that in the first vision he had with Ayahuasca he witnessed human suffering throughout history. With this, he understood the forces of evil, pride, and greed that make empires fall, and he came to the realization that the only hope for humanity is spiritual. You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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Strtman, you mentioned you had a difficult time understanding the table of entheogen brain receptor activity from post #3, so I thought I would repost a synopsis of what is going on with respect to combinations of 5-meo-dmt with dmt, which would theoretically be similar in certain ways to combinations of caapi and dmt, as there is important 5-ht1a agonization taking place with both plant alkaloid combinations. Caapi and 5-meo-dmt also add to the strength of other receptor sites. For example when you add the 0.98 strength of 5-meo-dmt at 5-ht2a to the 2.58 strength of dmt at 5-ht2a, you end up with a 3.56 target strength at 5-ht2a, which equates to the approximate strength of LSD at this exact same receptor (3.54). Strtman said in post #5: Quote:tregar, first of all thank you for your in-depth post. Did not expect this and it is by far the most extensive one I got. The first two paragraphs are not that easy to understand. I have to let it soak in a while. Your given quotes are worth reading. And I love the attachment. Just as caapi compliments dmt by agonizing 5-ht1a, so does 5-meo-dmt complement dmt by agonizing 5-ht1a. 5-meo-dmt is the strongest 5-ht1a agonist on the planet with a maximum of 4.00. All the important oral entheogens agonize 5-ht1a receptors, which make up over 80% of brain 5-ht. DMT can only do so much, nature seems to have made it so that it will agonize the other 20% of brain 5-ht with tremendous power (just view the table below to see this enormous power)...when teamed with Caapi (or with 5-meo-dmt or it's derivatives) the other 80% of brain 5-ht is agonized, completing the journey. Notice below the " completely different visionary characteristic" Oroc had when combining DMT with 5-meo-dmt, just as combining caapi with dmt results in completely different visions than DMT alone. Is it any wonder the snuff's of the amazon the Natives use called "yopo" are combinations of mainly bufotenin (a derivative of psilocin/5-meo-dmt/dmt) with trace amounts of 5-meo-dmt and dmt? Quote:Anadenanthera peregrina, also known as yopo beans have been found to contain up to 7.4% bufotenin, and up to only 0.04% 5-MeO-DMT and 0.16% DMT. The psychoactivity of bufotenin has been disputed, though recent studies suggest it is similar to that of 5-MeO-DMT. https://en.wikipedia.org.../Anadenanthera_peregrinahxxps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadenanthera_peregrina Bufotenin: https://en.wikipedia.org.../Anadenanthera_peregrinahxxps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadenanthera_peregrina Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010): http://journals.plos.org...371/journal.pone.0009019hxxp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019 Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min Quote:LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00 (make up >80% of brain 5-ht)
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.41
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.48
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.72
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.98 (0.98 5-meo-dmt + 2.58 dmt = LSD strength)
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.69
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.55
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.84
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.73
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.69
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.38
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00 (alpha-2A adrenergic receptor)
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.86 (alpha-2B adrenergic receptor)
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.57 (alpha-2C adrenergic receptor)
Oroc's experiment of combining 5-meo-dmt with DMT sounds imho very much like a short beautiful transcendental Ayahuasca experience, from his book "Tryptamine Palace": Oroc: DMT + 5-meo-dmt: Quote:As an experiment (and in a foreign land) I smoked the last of the Bufo alvarius venom (the story of whose collection is described within the pages of Tryptamine Palace) with some ‘regular’ DMT (extracted from Jurema Preta.). In the vast majority of my early nigerine (DMT) experiences, I encountered visual fields of ‘dots’ that would come together to form images, much like the pointillism style of painting developed by Georges Seurat or the Australian Aboriginal song-line paintings.
** With the addition of the 5-MeO-DMT containing toad-venom to the DMT however, the visual characteristic was completely different and totally unique to my experiences so far. On this occasion there was a complete lack of ‘dots’ or ‘points’ of any kind, the fine lines of the constantly changing imagery were like those painted with a single-hair brush on Tibetan thangkas and due to the overwhelming artistry of what I was seeing, I could only think of the vaulted ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in comparison.
Sistene Chapel: This was without a doubt the most ‘visionary’ experience I have ever been fortunate enough to encounter and I lay there with my eyes shut watching the most fantastic parade of the Collective Unconsciousness imaginable, wishing that it would never end, and as I sit here now I can not even describe one tiny corner of it, since every image in the multitude of imagery was in such constant motion that they defied all but a glimpse. And then moments later, like a tent collapsing when its ropes are cut, the vision is gone. Leaving only a struggle of words to explain it, since nothing before or after has come close to this experiences visual majesty.
This experience leads to the interesting question of selectively combining DMT and 5-MeO-DMT for a more visionary and somewhat less overwhelmingly transcendental experience. (Or for the other way around). This combining of the two endogenous entheogens is being tested in changa blends (reportedly at a 90% DMT to 10% 5-MeO-DMT ratio), while many Pharmahuasca urban-shamans are also adding 5-MeO-DMT to their ayahuasca-analogues to transform and deepen that experience. It seems likely to me that the combining of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in various ratios and manners will only become more popular as the exponentially increasing number of psychonauts search for new psychological terrain to explore. W.A. Stoll gives a detailed description of his own personal experiment with 60 mcg LSD: notice the similarities of cultural visions seen with LSD as compared with Ayahuasca from posts mentioned above & also the certain theme relating to the visions. From page 64 & 65 of "LSD My Problem Child" by Dr. Hofmann, Ph.D, paper included in book by Werner Stoll, M.D.: Quote:At eight o' clock I took 60 mcg (0.06 milligrams) of LSD. Some 20 minutes later, the first symptoms appeared: heaviness in the limbs, slight atactic (ie., confused, uncoordinated) symptoms. A subjectively very unpleasant phase of general malaise followed, in parallel with the drop in blood pressure registered by the examiners. A certain euphoria then set in...
At first, the hallucinations were elementary: rays, bundles of rays, rain, rings, vortices, loops, sprays, clouds, etc. Then more highly organized visions also appeared: arches, rows of arches, a sea of roofs, desert landscapes, terraces, flickering fire, starry skies of unbelievable splendor. The original, more simple images continued in the midst of these more highly organized hallucinations. I remember the following images in particular:
A succession of towering, Gothic vaults, an endless choir, of which I could not see the lower portions.
A landscape of skyscrapers, reminiscent of pictures of the entrance to New York harbor: house towers staggered behind and beside one another with innumerable rows of windows. Again the foundation was missing.
A system of masts and ropes, which reminded me of a reproduction of a painting seen the previous day (the inside of a circus tent).
An evening sky of an unimaginable pale blue over the dark roofs of a Spanish city. I had a peculiar feeling of anticipation, was full of joy and decidedly ready for adventure. All at once the stars flared up, amassed, and turned to a dense rain of stars and sparks that streamed toward me. City and sky had disappeared.
I was in a garden, saw brilliant red, yellow, and green lights falling through a dark trellis work, and indescribably joyous experience.
It was significant that all the images consisted of countless repetitions of the same elements: many sparks, many circles, many arches, many windows, many fires, etc. I never saw isolated images, but always duplications of the same image, endlessly repeated. Almost makes you wonder what the visionary dream potential would be like with a combination of harmaline or harmala derivatives and micro amounts of LSD. You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 467 Joined: 06-Sep-2015 Last visit: 06-Feb-2024 Location: in your mind
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tregar, thanks for your new input. These things need time before it finally makes sense. Anyway, I have registered for an ayahuasca ceremony that will take place soon. I did prepare my own brew a long time ago but after drinking it nothing happened. A second attempt failed too. I am looking forward to the ceremony and curious how I will experience this different from smoking the stuff. Quiet the mind and the soul will speak
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 562 Joined: 20-Nov-2009 Last visit: 07-Jan-2023
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Strtman, look forward to hearing about your Ayahuasca ceremony in the future should you share the experience with us, and the similarities/differences encountered vs smoking...post here again should you get the chance. From Pinchbeck's book "Breaking Open the Head": Quote:For many people,Ayahuasca-a slowed-down low-res interface of the DMT flash-seems to convey strong messages from the natural world, of nature as sentient energy and spirit matter, of the need to protect the planet we have been given.
Yag whispers that human beings are meant to be gardeners of this reality, journeyers, storytellers and singers, weavers of the sacred. DMT, on the other hand, conveys no overt human or humane message. For a comparison of DMT trip reports (with endless speculations on the entities) to the Ayahuasca journey "contents of visions" the reader is referred to the following great reads: DMT research from 1956 to the Edge of Time by Gallimore and Luke http://realitysandwich.c...956-to-the-edge-of-time/hxxp://realitysandwich.com/318885/dmt-research-from-1956-to-the-edge-of-time/ One of the best & longest articles ever read: In this paper we learn that the Hungarian psychiatrist Stephen Szara isolated dmt from samples of Cohoba, a psychoactive snuff powder prepared from the seeds of Anadenanthera peregrina by the Taino Indians. He extracted the bufotenine (a potent 5-ht1a agonist) out and the dmt out, and gave the bufotenine only to prisoners, and injected himself with 75mg of dmt. Only wished he had kept the bufotenine together with the dmt and conducted studies of the two working together in unison as well, then we would have reports of the Shamanically used seeds, just as they are used in the Amazon. There is important teamwork going on when the bufotenine in the seeds is used in conjuction with the dmt found in the seeds--for one, the bufotenine is supplying the missing 5-ht1a agonism that dmt lacks...just as the 2nd largest component of caapi, a potent 5-ht1a agonist and serotonin reuptake inhibitor (but not found in rue) supplies the missing 5-ht1a agonism that dmt lacks. The anti-serotonin effects of LSD, mescaline and mushrooms also fall into this category--all having strong and important 5-ht1a agonism, with 5-meo-dmt having the strongest 5-ht1a agonism of all the known entheogens--and often, why only minute amounts of it are found in plants in combination with dmt--as only tiny amounts of it are sufficient--due to its overtly strong 5-ht1a agonist actions. Besides snuffs, dmt containing plants are used with Caapi which contains as it's 2nd largest component -- a mild fast acting SSRI (tetrahydroharmine) which is a potent 5-ht1a agonist and serotonin blocker, which is not found in rue. In other words, DMT is always used traditionally in combination with either caapi or minute amounts of 5-meo-dmt or its derivatives like bufotenine found in the snuffs. These snuffs giving effects which lasts for around 3 hours. Nichols: "LSD has very strong potency in blocking the action of serotonin. The morpholide lysergamide cousin had only about 1/10th the potency in blocking serotonin. Of the 5 diiferent dialkylamides they studied LSD was the most potent and specific serotonin antagonist. " [page 2 & 3 of 8]: https://heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap6.pdfhxxps://heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap6.pdf In dreams, a brew of blended up psychotria leaf can be boiled in 1 and 1/4 bottle of spring water (21oz) for 1/2 hour, then filtered thru a wire mesh to get out the course leaf fragments, then filtered thru a cotton ball in a funnel to get out the fine leaf sediment, change out the cotton ball when/if it clogs, then put the liquid back on the stove and reduce it down to 1 or 2oz, and add your caapi. Phenomenal dream with good plants. The cotton ball gets out any fine sediment which is irritating to the intestines, for a nausea free to the stomach/intestines brew, this of course does not reduce "brain nausea" which can result from using too much leaf. The 1st 60 minutes from when the caapi takes effect is when some weak nausea or slight dizziness might be noticed during the dream, whereas after the 1st hour, there is usually little to zero nausea or dizziness as the harmine in the caapi has mostly worn off by then, as the half-life of harmine is around 1.5 hour. Then all that is left working is the more desirable tetrahydroharmine in the caapi and any leaf actives for the duration of the rest of the dream. Just as Bancopuma wrote here once, "the more caapi the better." Caapi contains tetrahydroharmine as it's second largest alkaloid, and contributes greatly to the experience in many postitive ways, besides it's brightening and coloring abilities, it goes way beyond that: Have a sense that THH not only partially inactivates filters (or barriers) in the brain so that "mind at large" as coined by Aldous Huxley can be let loose a bit, but also strongly activates the right hand hemisphere of the brain-- the side that performs tasks that have do with creativity and the arts, feelings, visualizations, imagination, holistic thinking & intuition. "Mind at Large" as coined by Huxley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_at_LargeQuote from TIHKAL by Dr. Shulgin "More studies on tetrahydroharmine are absolutely imperative." Trips (from this forum here on 12/2/2011): Quote:As to how the THH altered the experience -> I find rue extract+DMT to be very similar to mushrooms. I found the THH added to the rue+DMT to shift the experience to a state much closer to that provided by LSD. It was more clear, more energetic, more euphoric, more focused, and when confusion struck it was definitely more "acid-like". The Mystery of DMT: A Talk with Graham St John, author Mystery School in Hyperspace: A Cultural History of DMT http://realitysandwich.c...ry-school-in-hyperspace/hxxp://realitysandwich.com/319198/mystery-school-in-hyperspace/ Google books: contents preview of Mystery School in Hyperspace: A Cultural History of DMT https://books.google.com...nepage&q&f=falsehxxps://books.google.com/books?id=mGb7rQEACAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Read all the contents, found it interesting that 8 time Mr. Olympia Lee Haney gave an account of his smoked dmt experience, included in the above are detailed accounts from Watts, Leary, etc. Do like the authors writing style, around a 500 page book. 340 DMT trip reports (compiled by Meyer and Pup): http://www.serendipity.l...340_dmt_trip_reports.htmhxxp://www.serendipity.li/dmt/340_dmt_trip_reports.htm Read the first 250 of the 340 total reports, the reports with entity encounters are marked as such before the beginning of each report. James Oroc contrasts the differences between dmt and dmt combined with minute amounts of 5-meo-dmt from his book "Tryptamine Palace": Quote:As an experiment (and in a foreign land) I smoked the last of the Bufo alvarius venom (the story of whose collection is described within the pages of Tryptamine Palace) with some ‘regular’ DMT (extracted from Jurema Preta.). In the vast majority of my early nigerine (DMT) experiences, I encountered visual fields of ‘dots’ that would come together to form images, much like the pointillism style of painting developed by Georges Seurat or the Australian Aboriginal song-line paintings.
With the addition of the 5-MeO-DMT containing toad-venom to the DMT however, the visual characteristic was completely different and totally unique to my experiences so far. On this occasion there was a complete lack of ‘dots’ or ‘points’ of any kind, the fine lines of the constantly changing imagery were like those painted with a single-hair brush on Tibetan thangkas and due to the overwhelming artistry of what I was seeing, I could only think of the vaulted ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in comparison.
Sistene Chapel: This was without a doubt the most ‘visionary’ experience I have ever been fortunate enough to encounter and I lay there with my eyes shut watching the most fantastic parade of the Collective Unconsciousness imaginable, wishing that it would never end, and as I sit here now I can not even describe one tiny corner of it, since every image in the multitude of imagery was in such constant motion that they defied all but a glimpse. And then moments later, like a tent collapsing when its ropes are cut, the vision is gone. Leaving only a struggle of words to explain it, since nothing before or after has come close to this experiences visual majesty.
This experience leads to the interesting question of selectively combining DMT and 5-MeO-DMT for a more visionary and somewhat less overwhelmingly transcendental experience. (Or for the other way around). This combining of the two endogenous entheogens is being tested in changa blends (reportedly at a 90% DMT to 10% 5-MeO-DMT ratio), while many Pharmahuasca urban-shamans are also adding 5-MeO-DMT to their ayahuasca-analogues to transform and deepen that experience. It seems likely to me that the combining of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in various ratios and manners will only become more popular as the exponentially increasing number of psychonauts search for new psychological terrain to explore.
Shanon breaks down the contents of Ayahuasca visions into 4 categories: 1. Nature 2. Culture 3. Fantasy 4. Domain of the Spiritual and Supernatural Concluding Remarks from Benny Shanon on chapter "Contents of Visions" from the classic "Antipodes of the Mind, Charting the Phenomenology of the Ayahuasca Experience": Quote:Having focused on details, let me now take a broader perspective and comment on the global picture that emerges from the foregoing survey. In their totality, the data we have surveyed define the semantic space of the visions seen with Ayahuasca. Embracing an alternative world-view, these data may also be regarded as defining what traditional users refer to as 'the world of Ayahuasca'. The semantic space, or world, in question comprises four main domains.
The first is the domain of nature. As noted throughout the foregoing discussion, animals especially serpents, felines, and birds are some of the most common items in the visions. Natural landscapes and scenes of forests and gardens are also very common. Also common are scenes of heavenly bodies and the far reaches of the cosmos.
The second domain is that of culture. Its prime manifestations are magnificent cities, the majesty of the royal, various products of artistic creation, religion, and magic. Usually, what are seen in the visions are not contents pertaining to the drinker's own socio-cultural milieu but rather ones associated with ancient civilizations. The majority of the constructions, objects, and artefacts that appear in the visions are either precious or wonderfully ornate or both. Further, most of the buildings seen in the visions are palaces or temples, and many of the human beings are either kings and queens or religious figures and persons with spiritual prominence.
Third is the domain of fantasy. It comprises enchanted and magical lands and it is populated by all sorts of creatures which are neither human beings nor naturalistic animals. As just indicated, the objects and scenes that appear in the visions are usually not mundane; often they are associated with mythology, fairy tales, and magic.
Fourth is the domain of the spiritual and the supernatural. Ayahuasca visions often reveal before one celestial and heavenly realms. In these, divine and semi divine beings often appear. The supernatural domain is usually associated with spiritual and metaphysical meanings. Related to this domain are the items and scenes pertaining to death.
In addition to the specific contents that are typical to them, Ayahuasca visions are also characterized by the extraordinary beauty that they manifest. Time and again, drinkers report that what they see in Ayahuasca visions surpasses in magnificence anything they have ever seen either in reality or in works of art. As further indicated above, objects and artefacts that appear in these visions are usually extremely rich and wonderfully ornate. Many of the landscapes are fantastic, and even when strictly speaking they are utterly naturalistic, the landscapes often emanate special qualities such as eternal presence, divine bounty, or pristine meaningfulness. And then, when the visions lead one upwards, to the realms of the planets and beyond, what one sees can be utterly stupefying. Not infrequently a point is reached when the marvel is such that one feels that what is presented before one is overwhelming and that its scrutiny is beyond the grasp of one's human cognitive faculties. In the literature, the word 'ineffable' is often used, marking the limitedness of language. At times, however, one also experiences the limitedness of one's mind and one's heart. Especially powerful visions may impress one as being totally beyond one's mental reach. On such occasions, one feels that what one sees is too wondrous to be grasped and one finds that one's mind simply cannot contain the marvels revealed to one. In extreme cases one may feel it is too painful to watch what the visions present it is all just too sublime, above and beyond the realm of the human.
Having said all this, let me also note that what may be seen in Ayahuasca visions is, in principle, unbounded essentially, there is no limit to it. The unboundedness pertains to both the types of content seen and to the tokens (that is, specific instantiations) of these types. With respect to the types, let me cite what, on two different occasions, I have been told by two very experienced drinkers. Checking whether they had seen the various items on my structured questionnaire, these informants answered in the affirmative for all items queried. Doing this, they smiled and said 'Well, you see, I have seen everything.' With respect to the tokens, the unboundedness manifests itself in people never seeing the same vision twice.
I say this both on the basis of my own experiences with Ayahuasca and the repeated observations of many other individuals; no one has ever reported a case that counters this generalization. The generalization holds even though there are many items that are especially common in Ayahuasca visions. In terms of their type, the items seen do exhibit various patterned regularities, but the tokens associated with these content types display unbounded variation. Thus, I have seen palaces and interior decorations thereof many, many times; yet, each vision of these was totally novel not even twice did I see the same building or decoration. Coupled with the fantastic nature of the contents of the visions and their extraordinary magnificence, I find this state of affairs to be truly remarkable.
In sum, all things imaginable and non-imaginable can be seen with Ayahuasca. One can see all the moments of one's life, all the people and places that one knows, Nature and the Cosmos in all their manifestations, human history and the different cultures that it has and has not produced, and scenes that lead one above the planet, to the far reaches of the cosmos, to the heavens. One can see the inner parts of one's body and the deeper strata of one's soul, one can encounter the infinite richness of myth and fantasy, meet fairies and dragons, angels and devils, taste the nectars of the Eternal, be washed by the bounty of the Supreme Good, witness the perennial light, encounter the Divine. You may remember me as 69Ron. I was suspended years ago for selling bunk products under false pretenses. I try to sneak back from time to time under different names, but unfortunately, the moderators of the DMT-Nexus are infinitely smarter than I am.
If you see me at the waterpark, please say hello. I'll be the delusional 50 something in the American flag Speedo, oiling up his monster guns while responding to imaginary requests for selfies from invisible teenage girls.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 5267 Joined: 01-Jul-2010 Last visit: 13-Dec-2018
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For myself, I have encountered snakes and anacondas from vaped DMT, so my entity encounters haven't been so stereotypical I suppose. When it comes down to it, when I take ayahuasca, not just the entities I encounter, but all of the objects/landscape take on a sort of macro quality. Some of the finer details are lost, and the geometry takes on some different configurations than they should seem to do otherwise. For me, the difference in encounters is a qualitative matter. The abstract entities that I will see from vaped DMT can appear with ayahuasca, but visually modified (as I said, usually larger, and altered yet similar geometric forms). "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein
"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead
"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
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