I've defined "breakthrough" in my original post, why asking again?..
People have talked about reaching a place more real than this physical world on smoked DMT whereas my visuals on oral DMT have been dreamy and vague.

Hmmm...

Never saw your original post.

...try smoked DMT. What else can you do?

"Dreamy and vague" definantly does not sound like DMT in my mind...are you going heavy on the harmala alkaloids and light on the DMT? Because what you are describing sounds more like harmala intoxication than DMT...



-eg

are you going heavy on the harmala alkaloids and light on the DMT?

Timing dosage seems to play a big role in my experience also. If the MAOI has not been given enough time to kick in propperly the tryptamine part of the trip will be short, like 1hr, while the residual harmala effects will linger a few more hours.

When done right there should be 4-5hrs where the DMT effect is dominant or seems to be the only thing at play, complete with full immersion &

Concombres, in your experience how much time gap to give? I don't need to wait to start feeling the harmalas effect(s) right?

Others are also welcome to answer

If you wait long enough to feel the harmala effect, you have waited tooooo long. For me, the harmalas kick in at about 1 hour at which point MAO inhibition in the stomach will have diminished significantly. I once did this (1hr.) with 60mg DMT. I could feel it and had very minor visuals, but 60mg should be much more obvious and possibly slightly intense. The difficult part is that harmala dosage and MAO inhibition vary widely from person to person. If you experiment with harmala dosage before adding DMT, this will give you a good frame of reference. What you are aiming for is a dose that by T+90 feels similar to a couple beers, glasses of wine, or shots of liquor. For me, this is 200-250mg harmine HCl. That would be equivalent to 100-125mg harmaline HCl or 150-180mg of syrian rue extract (fairly pure).

Once you find this dose, then comes the timing so that maximum MAO inhibition is in effect when you drop DMT into your stomach. This also is going to vary widely from person to person since there are different genetic profiles for MAO expression and liver enzymes. For some people, this happens so rapidly that there is no need to take the two substances seperately. For myself, the majic window is about 20 minutes. If I use this window, I can feel the DMT having a marked effect on me in no more than 10 minutes after drinking it (aqeous DMT citrate). It comes on so strong and quickly that by T+12 (DMT) I purge.

However, if I drink them together, it is no surprise that I start unmistakably feeling the DMT at T+20. In this circumstance, there is a marked decrease in effect with the same dose. Maybe on the order of 30-35% less. To me, this means that my MAO enzymes begin to break down the DMT before the harmine has a chance to inhibit the enzymes. Now, I'm not advocating that my magical 20 minute window will work for everyone, but it will surely work for some. I believe that depending on the person, this window will be somewhere between 0 and 30 minutes. What I would suggest is careful experimentation with a mild to moderate dose of DMT and the dose of harmalas that gives the target affect mentioned above. Start by taking together as this obviously works well for many people. Then incrementally spread by 5 minutes using exactly the same low to moderate dosage until you notice a difference. Whatever spread gives you the maximum effect and quickest onset after taking the DMT is YOUR magic window. If you feel less effect than previously, then you have gone too far.

If you don't want to experiment, I would suggest a 5 or 10 minute spread between the two as this will likely be close to the middle of the bell curve and give the maximum effect to the most people. Also, try to avoid gel caps unless you mix them together before placing in caps. It is very difficult to gauge how fast the gelatin will dissolve in your stomach. Even if you put the harmalas in one and the DMT in another and take at the same time, the DMT cap could very possibly open up before the harmalas and result in a paltry trip or none at all.

1 = 20mg actives = representing non-entheogenic stimulation
2 = 30mg actives = representing the entheogenic threshold
3 = 40mg actives = corresponding to a mild journey
4 = 50mg actives = moderately strong journey, each of 3 times ranked a solid "4"
5 = 60mg actives = strong journey
6 = 70mg actives = technical knockout of the ego

We tested some of the DMT (MHRB) and harmala with a group and have started to come to some conclusions about dose and timing. Harmala was extracted from Syrian Rue. Both extracts were encapsulated before use.

Everything went off excellently for everyone... 35-40 mgs w/ 10 - 15 mgs boosters 2 participants declined boosters. (Let me know if you have any questions on any of this... it sure was fun!)

Here's what we discovered: Mao Inhibtor takes 20 minutes to come on fully: Experience is described as soft glow in room, body relaxed like hot tub. DMT required 45 minutes to come on, peak 1.5 hrs after. tt to peak = 2:15 hrs

The dosaging IS body weight dependent. If one's weight is less than 175 lbs, or they are sensistive, then the following applies:

Light : 25-30 mgs
Moderate : 35-40 mgs
Strong : 45-50
Intense : 50-65 mgs

If body weight is over 175 lbs :

Light : 35 mgs
Moderate : 40-50 mgs
Strong : 50-60 mgs
Intense : 65-70 mgs

If body weight is 245+ :

Light : 45-50 mgs
Moderate : 50-60 mgs
Strong : 60-75 mgs
Intense : 75-100 mgs

Based on this, I computed the mg/kg dosage schema based on our results:

.45-.46 mg/kg : light dosage/sensitive
.47-.485 mg/kg : moderate dosage/average
.49-.51 mg/kg : strong dosage/resistant

Note: These are from limited bioassay results and 'resistant' is for the hard-headed ones among us, based on experience.

Ayahuasca is Banisteriopsis caapi. It contains mostly harmine, thh & harmaline. B. caapi itself contains no DMT and can be used as is to produce visionary states that are like mental day dreams which lack true visual content. Often admixtures are used to increase the visual content of the ayahuasca dreams. Most admixture plants contain DMT.

Harmine & harmaline & thh used alone, can produce a mild dreamy psychedelic experience in which daydreams or lucid dreams can be experienced if the user chooses to do so. These dreams from the harmalas alone are vague and lack visual content, but usually have story lines and can be quite complex just like a real dream. The harmalas allow one to go in and out of dream consciousness at will. It takes some practice to learn how to enter a lucid dream with the harmalas alone. The harmalas won’t make you enter a lucid dream. You have to do it yourself by allowing your mind to drift off into a lucid dream.

DMT used alone, produces an intense visual experience, often very chaotic and fast moving, and quite amazing to watch. The visions of DMT alone usually lack meaningful content. The DMT visions are often just constantly morphine colors and shapes. Most of it makes absolutely no sense. Rarely will the visuals present to you a full blown dream with people, places, a story line, etc. But this does sometimes happen. But usually you just get a bunch of bazaar visions that are difficult to understand.

When combined, as in ayahuasca, the harmalas brings a dreamy quality to the DMT experience that makes it more like one is experiencing an actual dream, not just a bunch of fancy colors. With the two together, you have the visuals of DMT, plus the dream content of the harmalas. The harmalas are the boss here in this combination if used in ayahuasca proportions where the harmalas are not just used as an MAOI but is used specifically to allow dream consciousness to be entered by the user. DMT is just an additive used to increase the visual portion of the harmala induced dreams.

Using harmalas in very low doses, just as an MAOI, is not the same as using properly made ayahuasca. If the harmalas are used in low doses just for it’s MAOI effects, the trip lacks dream content and is just a bunch of bazaar DMT visual effects. This is not ayahuasca-like, it’s just orally activated DMT. That’s not the same. Its true that some ayahuasca is prepared this way, but such Ayahuasca is considered inferior by most natives. With Ayahuasca, the DMT is just an additive, not the main course. This is why Ayahausca made with only caapi is still called ayahuasca and considered nearly as powerful as Ayahuasca made with additive plants containing DMT.

This is something a lot of people don’t get. Ayahuasca is not simple orally activated DMT. It is the dream consciousness effects of the harmalas that are at play in ayahuasca. In order to experience lucid dreams from harmine without DMT, you need to practice a lot. But once you know how to do it, you don’t need DMT added to it anymore, unless you want the extra visual depth that DMT adds to the dreams.

So, “Dmt Or Ayahuasca?”, well that question is a personal question. Some people prefer DMT-less ayahuasca. Some people prefer just orally activated DMT. Some people prefer ayahuasca with a side order of DMT. Some people prefer the truly bazaar effects of smoked DMT alone.

My personal opinion is that DMT alone is FUN and can be quite frightening. It’s like a roller coaster ride and I like roller coasters. But don’t expect a deep meaningful life changing experience from it. Its pure visual FUN and nothing more. If I want a more meaningful experience I’d use an oral ayahuasca extract, or a smoked Yopo extract (not as effective as ayahuasca because Yopo is low on harmala-like alkaloids)

Authentic ayahuasca, high in harmine, thh & harmaline, and low on DMT, is like entering a full blown 3D dream with dream characters, storylines, etc. This can be a life changing experience. It’s more like sitting in a theater for several hours absorbing a story that’s meaningful because its about you. You leave with memories of places, things, people, etc., and possibly a new view on life.

The special character of the semantic space of Ayahuasca visions may also be marked by way of contrast. Comparative and contrastive analyses that I have conducted indicate that the content items that appear in these visions are different from items often seen in dreams.

As further described in the Appendix, I have compared the content items of my dreams to those seen in the corpus of my Ayahuasca visions. Very little overlap was found between the content items that appear in the two sets of data. None of the content items characteristic of the visions are encountered in the dreams nor are those that usually appear in the dreams found in the visions.

In particular, in my dreams I have never seen tigers or serpents, palaces or scenes from ancient civilizations, royalty or other special beings. Never have I seen places that may be characterized as phantasmagoric or magical, nor have I ever seen historical or mythological scenes or ones having to do with the meaning of either the human predicament, Life and Creation, Nature, or the Cosmos. Furthermore, my dreams never had any religious or spiritual quality nor did they ever seem to convey a message or serve as a vehicle for instruction.

Rather, by and large, the content items that appear in my dreams are common place. In them, I usually see persons who are significant in my life, scenes echoing events that happened to me in real life, images incorporating details often insignificant, such as telephone numbers that I have encountered during the course of the preceding day or two, scenes that reflect my personal conflicts, issues with which I am especially concerned, my fears, my wishes and desires. In general, these do not appear in the visions I have had with Ayahuasca.

In the western world, Ayahuasca acquired a new definition: It was now, by definition, the combination of Banisteriopsis caapi and a DMT-containing plant. Ayahuasca became, by definition, “orally active DMT.” The first anthropologist to adopt the new definition seems to have been Luis Eduardo Luna in 1984. Luna spent time with Terence McKenna, absorbing his perspective, before beginning his fieldwork. Since then, anthropologists have increasingly adopted this definition and filtered their observations through it. The preeminence of the Ayahuasca vine in the indigenous Amazonian world became the elephant in the living room of Ayahuasca studies, with a tacit agreement to pretend it doesn’t exist.

The leaves were Ayahuasca’s “helpers,” I was told, and their purpose was to “brighten and clarify” the visions. The vine is like a cave, and the leaf is like a torch you use to see what is inside the cave. The vine is like a book, and the leaf is like the candle you use to read the book. The vine is like a snowy television set, and the leaf helps to tune in the picture. There was a subtle attitude that the need for strong leaf was the sign of a beginner: An experienced ayahuasquero could see the visions even in low light

Ayahuasca vine is not visionary in the same way as DMT. The leaf helps illuminate the content, but the teachings are credited to the vine. Vine visions are “frequently associated with writing, to a code that is present in visions…or in the ‘books’ where the spirits keep the secrets of the forest.” The vine is The Teacher, The Healer, The Guide. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts. This is why it is the vine, not the leaf, that is classified by the type of vision it gives. “For them the vine is, in truth, a living guide, a friend, a paternal authority”.

-------------
"The second example was provided by a young man who partook of Ayahuasca in private sessions conducted in Europe. This individual is not amongst the informants whose data are analysed in this book; his report was communicated to me just when the typeset of this monograph was being sent to the publisher. I present this report as an illustrative example of the experiences of a first-timer. The following is a slightly edited synopsis of what this person saw during his first two sessions with the brew. I shall note that while the report is rich in details, the intoxication experienced was not especially strong; by the present structural typology, all items seen would be characterized as single, simple images.

Animals. Those seen most frequently were serpents, felines, and birds. Some of the serpents were ornate, like Chinese dragons; the felines included tigers and black pumas; the birds included parrots, peacocks, and toucans. Also seen were a galloping horse, dragons, monsters of all sorts, and evil beasts; with some of the latter blood was associated.

Many human persons were seen. Amongst these were Indians and a sensuous Caribbean dancer. A person present in the session appeared to have the face of a gorilla with the beak of a bird.

Palaces and mansions. Amongst the buildings seen were skyscrapers and pyramids. Also seen were interior decorations of buildings. These were very exquisitely ornamented; many were gilded.

Cities. Many different ones were seen; some had futuristic architecture.

Landscapes. These included forests, open deserts, river scenes, and scenes under water. Associated with the latter were corals and 'tornadoes offish'. Overall, the landscapes had an ambience of serenity and silence.

Especially frequent were disembodied eyes; many of these pertained to big cats. Other items noted: an Indian in a boat, an old woman turning white and transforming into a young girl, cars of the 1950s that were colourfully painted in a style which was 'rather kitsch', streams of gold.

The trees outside looked like goddesses.

Significantly, the items reported by this informant include all those that are typical of Ayahuasca visions. As such, this report, I find, is a good example supporting the cultural non-specificity of these visions.

This report is that of Kusel (1965: 64--65), a trader who lived in the upper Amazon for seven years and, in his words, 'was very skeptical and not interested in these low-class local manners'. Twice he partook of Ayahuasca and nothing happened; then there was the third time:

"The first visual experience was like fireworks. Then a continuously creating power produced a wealth of simple and elaborate flat patterns in colour. There were patterns that consisted of twining repeats, and others geometrically organized with rectangles or squares that were like Maya designs or those decorations which the Chamas [the Indians with whom Kusel partook of Ayahuasca , B.S.] paint on their thin, ringing pottery. The visions were in constant flux. First intermittently, then successively, the flat patterns gave way to deep-brown, purple or green depths, like dimly lighted caves in which the walls were too far away to be perceived.

At times snake-like stems of plants were growing profusely in the depths, at others these were covered with arrangements of myriads of lights that like dewdrops or gems adorned them. Now and then brilliant light illuminated the scene as though by photographic flash, showing wide landscapes with trees placed at regular intervals or just empty plains. A big ship witn many flags appeared in one of these flashes, a merry-go-round with people dressed in highly coloured garments in another.

At a certain point I felt, helplessly, that [the person administering the session] and his song could do anything with me, which made me slide... deeper and deeper into a place where I might lose consciousness. If, to reassure myself, I opened my eyes, I saw the dark walls of the jungle covered with jewels as if a net of lights had been thrown over it. Upon closing my eyes again, I could renew the procession of slick, well-lighted images.

The colour scheme became a harmony of dark brown and greens. Naked dancers appeared turning slowly in spiral movements. Spots of brassy lights played on their bodies which gave them the texture of polished stones. Their faces were inclined and hidden in deep shadows. Their coming into existence in the centre of the vision coincided with the rhythm of [the] song, and they advanced forward to the sides, turning slowly. I longed to see their faces.

At last the whole field of vision was taken up by a single dancer with inclined face covered by a raised arm. As my desire to see the face became unendurable, it appeared suddenly in full close-up with closed eyes. I know that when the extraordinary face opened them, I experienced a satisfaction of a kind I had never known. It was the visual solution of a personal riddle."

There are 2 definite camps here: those advocating time gap, and those insisting no time gap should be done at all. Both have arguments to stand ground.
For me though, both work

> The one person I saw breakthrough/blackout in the jungle on Ayahuasca totally soiled his shorts.


> Suffering a breaktrough fixation k?
No. I want to know about God, breakthrough or not.
My harmalas/DMT oral experiences have mainly given me teachings dealing with how i communicate with others. This isn't why i've been trying harmalas/DMT, so thought that maybe intensifying the dosages may give me what i want.

> We all differ ...
I'm not really choosing oral for breakthrough. It's just that i've experience with oral DMT and some idea about how to do oral DMT whereas smoked i'm not sure how to go about it.

This is really great feedback, would you happen to know your body type? Vata, pitta or kapha? How's your Agni? Your digestive fire?