There is no forgiveness without something to forgive. As babies we did not deserve or require forgiveness, for innocence is only a meaningful concept by contrast with guilt. Guilt comes into being only after an action or thought or identification has been condemned. Guilt is the daughter of good and evil. The concepts good and evil are born by thought, which functions as a differentiator of classes: long and short, life and death, hot and cold, darkness and light, good and evil. We know guilt for the simple reason that we are attached to the concept of what is good and what is not good. We really think there are such realities. But there aren't. Now, christianity institutionalized guilt, because the church a very long time ago turned the enlightened being we today call Jesus into something non-human, something perfect, something beyond the reach of imitation by any other being in the universe whatsoever. We are told we shall always fall short, no matter what we do. Because if we were to truly rise to the same glory radiated by the Christ, we would be executed again just as we were that day on the cross, when we said, we who hath within each other we, why hath we forsaken we? Forgive them for they know not what they do. Those who killed Jesus in the eyes of Jesus were never guilty of such. He saw in those who killed him himself. In fact, there is in you the same self that was in Jesus. All beings are outward expressions, some long and some short, of the same energy that has always been, always is, and forever will be! And we are ALL that. Kill guilt. Kill forgiveness. You don’t need forgiveness. There is nothing to forgive.

It's very important to have feelings of guilt every now and then. Psychopath's never feel any guilt. Nobody is morally perfect. Feelings of guilt are one way to compensate for these imperfections. To give you an example of what i mean: i sometimes buy something that i know is just too cheap. A brand new coat for just 20 euro's. And in the back of my head i knew that there's no way that a manufacturer could make a good coat for that amount of money without exploiting people and the environment. So the feeling of guilt that followed, i hope, will prevent me from doing this again. If nobody ever would have such feelings, we would inevitably destroy eachother.

A more challenging question is: is it right or wrong to forgive others for their wrongs?

Most religions say that we should forgive others for whatever they do. Forgiveness does seem to have a 'humane' sort of aura, to many people.

But i personally have my doubts about this concept of forgiveness. I think that either someone's actions are just too minor violations to speak of the nessecety to forgive, because they're not worth our moral outrage to begin with. Think of someone forgetting your birthday for instance.
Or they are not.
What about actions that realy are incredibly destructive? What about rape? Murder? Rape ánd murder? Rape and murder of little childeren? Warcrimes? Torture?

Should we ever forgive people who commit such crimes? I think that actually may be an incredibly immoral thing to do. Incredibly naive to begin with. But that naivity may cost lives.

That's a really good point. At some point, forgiveness is equivalent to allowance/approval of those actions. For example, in forgiving a Nazi war criminal we would be sending the message that even a crime like mass murder doesn't warrant consequences. There probably needs to be some balance in the spaces in between in order for society to remain stable to any degree.

This is what bothered me about the concept of Christ as a scapegoat, which he was, in the old testament a village would take a goat, put all of the village sins onto the goat, then they would kill it to relieve the village of their sins.



So, if Christ died for all your sins, and all you have to do is ask for forgiveness, it creates this notion that "it's ok to sin, because I can be forgiven"...just like killing a goat does not correct the sins in reality, I don't think acceptance of Christ does either...


I feel the laws of karma are much more realistic...All your actions, positive or negative WILL be accounted for.

-eg

Forgiveness works really well in the mirror.

Have you ever hurt somebody without realizing doing so? In that case, from your point of view, there is nothing to forgive. Nevertheless, the one that you hurt could still have legitimate reason to grant you forgiveness.

And how does baby's innocence apply to you, me, or any grown up person? We have hurt others countless times: our parents, our schoolmates, our friends and our loved ones.

Guilt is a feeling you have when you did something evil to somebody and is thus a good feeling, motivating you to ask for forgiveness and restrain from committing evil in the future.

This is a circular reasoning - you begin with what you are trying to end with. Look at your sentence again in a simpler version: "good and evil are born to differentiate good and evil." Do you notice your logical fallacy?

Hurting others is not good, not hurting is good. These are objective realities and not some made-up thought constructs.

How can one institutionalize a feeling? You either have that feeling, or not, there is nothing "institutional" about it. Christianity simply teaches that if you feel guilt, it's because you hurt somebody, so ask for forgiveness.

This is not the doctrine of the Church, not the Orthodox one at least. Jesus was both a human and God. And everybody, in order to become divine, should follow Jesus ("imitate" to use your wording) to the best of his/her ability. Yes, of course, you can't be just like Him, since He is also God, and there is only one God. But becoming a perfect human? Definitely possible!

"We"? "We" were not crucified at that remarkable day almost 2000 years ago, only Jesus was. Nor it were "we" to whom Jesus spoke, but to God the Father. How did you come to the conclusion that everybody is God?

But of course they were guilty in His eyes, thats why he asked God the Father to forgive them! This relates to the first sentence of your post and my reply: it is possible to commit an evil thing, to hurt somebody, without realizing it and as such not feeling guilt. But it doesn't make you less guilty!

How did you come to believe this?

This is not a "fact", but an assumption you make.

Again, you assume that we are God ("energy that has always been, always is, and forever will be" to use your wording). Sounds like a megalomaniac flattering of the ego.

This is exactly how psychopaths think. Are you inviting everybody to become one?

Ego lives in the reality of dualism, thus, ego can never understand god (love).

And.... ego is the only reason why we are still on this planet. Without an ego I would lay down, just where I am now, and propably die of thurst or get eaten by a hungry animal (propably not, because I am in a room in a flat right now).

Ego is our survival program, an evolutionary adaption, (the illusion of I) an evolutionary byproduct.

Back to the topic... in the reality of ego...

morality and values are ideas, individual orientations for actions, which are mostly socially distributed and shared but can still vary widely in its interpretation among subjects even in the same social and cultural field. F.e. some people make a difference in killing a cow, a mosquito or a human, some not.

Realizing, that every action in life happens out of the same reason/intention, brings "ultimate" understanding and empathy.

Life (and we are patterns of it) always strives to/at its "best"..

...what means, that every action a lifeform takes is just the best attempt to cope with any situation/need which arises in the now. For us as humans even raping a child, killing 1000k of judes, feeding a baby, getting yourself something to eat, helping someone crossing the street, what ever. These are just expressions, coping strategies to deal with what arises in the now. These performances, mostly based on an unconscious intention, are in these particular moment, where we perform this behaviour, the best attempt to deal with what we think what is, limited on our own experiences, skills and coping strategies. The idea to rape a child roots in the same intention as f.e. helping someone, that this behaviour is the best I can do in my actual sitaution, even the idea of behaving "evil" is just an attempt of feeling "right".

In the dualistic reality (of ego), one (ego) can decide (always after an action was taken) if the performed or observed behaviour corresponds to his/her own idea of morality (which is an idea of what is "good" = functional for our own survival/maintenance).


One process is called self-criticism and refers only to behaviour. It is important for our evolution, to reflect our own actions and its consequences on a rational level, to learn and evolve as a whole.

In contrast to self-criticism we developed self-(d)evaluation, a self-identification which stagnates the process of examination in a judgment. Follwing this concept means death, because the process ends in a judgment about how it is/I am. F.e. because I show this behaviour I am this (bad/worthless/dumb/...) ...fin. Imagine an oranism which rejects itself. On a cellular level we call this process cancer, thus, self-(d)evaluation is like a psychological cancer.

The result of self-(d)evaluation can be used for an other process of identification, like I am better or worse than someone because of this and that, which is both always false. I am not the behaviour I perform or lifestyle I live, more my behaviour is an expression of myself, of my potential, knowledge, skills and strategies I have developed. The intention of all actions we (every lifeform) take(s) is always based on the priciple I described (life always strives to/at its "best" ) above.

We are responsible for the actions we take, yes, but what is guilt? Guilt is the identification (self-devaluation) with a performed behaviour (thinking is also a behaviour! - people feel guity because they think of something which they believe is "bad" ), followed by reducing themself to "I am this", related on their moral concept of good/bad. Thus, forgiveness plays on the same dimension. When I think I have to forgive, I don't understand the ultimate intention of every action and in addition, create and maintain a reality of self-(d)evaluation.
To forgive doesn't change anything in the objective reality, the child is raped and feels sad, my toe still hurts because you stepped onto it, and so on.

So.. what to forgive when there is no guilt and why when it doens't change anything of what is.

Facing my actions and criticise and evaluate them, why do I (re)act like this and where does this behaviour propably leads to. To go "further" and start the game of identification just slows my own speed and capacity of here and now awareness and doens't bring anything functional to my own evolutionary process.

tseuq

There is only one doorway to liberation from our personal actions that are weighed in the heart. Until this is truly seen we just continue the patterns of our heart blindness that is ego driven.

A change of heart is the order of things and we don't need books to see this or promises that just blind us.

Take off the old man/women and put on the new. Then all your bad Karma will just crumble away.. but in the same breath you will see this liberation opening in you.

It's hard work getting to the root of this darkness and very tricky work. The mind and all our past habitual ways puts up a fight.

Follow your heart into the silent desert to see just what you are. Give thanks to that which is leading the wind and gives you breath.

This is a journey through boredom, a very sacred journey back to the illumined heart.

Jesus said he was the way, I think he was in these hidden matters. The buddha too, all hearts manifest from this sacred place.

Call it enlightenment, call it.. true love, for self,then/therefore extended to others.

You don't need forgiveness as much as you need this understanding that will help you forgive/release your past ways, and the errors of others.

Peace be with you.

Forgiveness is but an adaptive coping mechanism. It can be "good" or "bad" depending on the relative relational circumstances. Forgiving oneself is often quite adaptive. Forgiving others? It depends.

Now, the Religiously orthodox/fundamentalist BELIEF that forgiveness is doled out per the big G if and only if one gets "right" with Jesus(or whomever), is 100% non-disprovable. Being completely outside the rational realm and based solely on stories we are told to BELIEVE. No mortal can claim this as knowledge, like it or not, it's a supernatural article of FAITH. It too can be adaptive or maladaptive(the belief).

Peace