For me it's about the same. Having experienced ayahuasca I had very challenging experiences, but I don't regret it a bit.

Many people seem to go through a phase with acid and eventually switch to psilos or aya for good. Not for me... It seems like it can go as deep if the dose is right for minimal amount of body load to distract me from the psychedelia.

The visuals are way different than the DMT-based entheogens, but I like them nevertheless.

My personal view on LSD after DMT didn't change a bit, I might even like it more since it kind of opened me up to this kind of DMT headspace with all the goodies and euphoria I get from acid.

Many DMT-heads claim that acid lacks some depths and is superficial. I think this is dose dependent, and after having drank ayahuasca many times I still think it can go just as deep even though most people don't usually eat more than one/two average tabs.

Even when I was only an acid head, I never quite understood how any psychedelic could be deeper than the other. It could only be different. Am I missing something?

For myself, consumption of one psychedelic will not influence consumption or views regarding another, all these compounds have their own unique beauty and value...

You would not use a hammer to remove a screw, and you would not use a screw-driver to hammer in a nail...This doesn't mean that a hammer is better than a screwdriver, or that using a hammer will affect my view of using the screw-driver, it means they are unique tools each suited for unique tasks...

Or lets use the metaphor of travel, you could take a car, or a bus, or a plane, or a train, to get to your destination, now, every vehicle will get you there, and each has its own set of advantages and disadvantages, and depending on the specific situation, you will pick the vehicle that suits your specific needs...

Ok, I'm done with my bad metaphors...

-eg

for me it changed a lot! before DMT most of my acid experiences would be bad trips. now i dont do it so often, but when i do its much more pleasant.

To some extent, there actually is a biological factor that contributes to how deep the psychedelics can go. Benzyme would probably be able to explain this better than me, but I believe that there is some kind of biological limit on LSD, where after a certain point, taking more of the substance will only affect duration, but the experience caps out. Granted you would need to take a lot, and much more than most people will ever take. DMT on the other hand does not have a limiting mechanism, and can therefore technically go deeper.

It is also my personal observation that going deep with DMT feels more natural than with LSD. It feels like there is less of a psychic/bodily toll for the visions.

Acid just got better and better after dmt for me.. it doesn't give me the kind of direct spiritual communion that I find dmt most useful for, but it gives me something else all together that no other entheogen can offer. dmt kind of gave it more of a context though. I certainly don't see it as any less "entheogenic".

I hear a lot of people say acid doesn't have the "wisdom" that the plant teachers have.. it may not but for that reason it is limitless in potential I think. There is less agenda and you can really create something with it. I find it allows me to have the shamanistic experience in a wider range of settings. I don't think any chemical allowed me to see the depth of the human connection, dance and manifestation the way LSD did.

So, thumbprint doses are a lie? I thought Xzibit was in earnest when he said "My style is like the reaction from too much acid - never come down"

I think it's a case of context. LSD is often being used in a social setting, while DMT is more often being used for introspection, where people just lie down in a darkened room. LSD is just as good for that purpose, but is just less often being associated with things like shamanism, etc. People take LSD at raves. You could probably take ayahuasca at a rave as well, but people don't do it.

And about LSD having a sort of 'ceiling'. That is very dependant on how frequently you use LSD. There was a time when i used a lot of LSD, and i build-up some massive tolerance. Back then, no matter how much acid i would take, 600 micrograms, 800 micrograms, or more even, it would never take me as deep as 300 micrograms would take me right now. When you have a huge tolerance for LSD, it just doesn't seem to get beyond a certain point, no matter how much you take. But when you don't have that high a tolerance...well, i don't know if LSD would level out beyond 600 micrograms or not, but i just wouldn't take that much right now. I just know it would totally rip me apart.

Pretty sure receptor saturation is relevant to dmt as it is to lsd. I think the only differemces would be halflife of the molecule and their affinity toward certain receptors.

The mechanism remains, one just docks in a little differently than the other.

S. Grof in LSD-Therapy speaks of a saturation dose at 400-500 µg in normal subjects, Passie in his 2008 review of 200 µg for the full effects of LSD. Yet some mental patients didn't respond properly to 1500 µg due to mental barriers according to Grof. I'd take the dope theory and the dose measurements of some individuals with a grain of salt. There are ~ 10,000 scientific papers on LSD, it's not a RC. Thumbprinting garbage material with a high tolerance may be equivalent to 500 µg high quality material with no tolerance.

I didn't say thumbprint doses are a lie. I said in order to find that ceiling, you would have to take more than most people would ever take, and of the vast majority of people to try acid, I would have to imagine that less than 1% of them have taken anything comparable to a thumbprint dose. Again, I claim to be no expert on this ceiling, but I do remember reading about it some time ago. I will see if I can dig anything up.

200 micrograms is definately not the saturation dose of LSD. Maybe 400 to 500 micrograms is, but i sure as hell am not going to take that much.

When i took 325 micrograms of 1P-LSD and 30 morning glory seeds, little over a year ago, i literally lost contact with my body for over an hour. All i could do was lie down while my mind was disintegrating. There was no 'me' anymore, only multidimensional, strobing, endlessly spinning, fractalic vortexes and the sound of jet-engines.
That was crazy enough for me. I don't realy feel like going way beyond what i experienced then.

Nice. I didn't lost contact with ~150 µg of AL-LAD, but I know what you mean. 200 µg of 1P-LSD was quite tolerable and fun, but I predosed with ~ 1-2mg Lorazepam.


“optimum” =! saturation I guess.

Isn't there a ceiling with DMT too though?

If you take a too high of a dose don't you just blackout without remembering anything afterwards?
I think this is what happened in a few patients in the Rick Strassman research with the highest doses (which in the end they had to cut out) because the subjects reported just "waking up" with no recollection of the experience whatsoever.
I might be wrong, but I think that's what it says in the detailed journal entries in Strassman's book.

I liked LSD more than i already had after i encountered DMT. It became deeper and i was more equiped to dealing with higher dose experiences.

A dose response ceiling occurs when all the available receptors have been occupied by the drug in question. The addition of more won't noticably change the biological effect since the percentage of available receptors is approaching 0.

The thing is, it's receptor-specific and the higher the affinity for the receptor, the lower the ceiling dose, so for LSD, the effects of 5-HT2A agonist might peak at 1,000ug (just making that up), but higher doses may still cause new effects via DA2 or Norepinepherine receptor agonism.

I believe for most people, the thumbprint-sized dose is the point at which it becomes impossible to determine increasing effects, partly because the brain is flooded, and partly because the cognitive abilities required to self-assess one's state of consciousness are completely offline.

Blessings
~ND

... or you experience ego death



I would have to say my experience is similar. I seem to be able to keep a cool head and really dive deep in the LSD space after experiencing DMT breakthroughs.. I've had some of my most spiritually influential experiences due to high doses of LSD.

I appreciate them both as medicines in their own right, not able to give precedence to one over the other. Though they are used as tools at different times for different goals.

While I'm sure you can "black-out", I think often times it's actually a more complex situation...

The first time I smoked DMT, I took a stupid massive dose, you could never in a billion years get me to take a dose that large again, it was a serious situation, I could either be destroyed or emerge transformed, it was incredibly traumatic...but I remember it.

...our memory is deeply connected to language, and when language does not exist to describe certian events, these events become incredibly difficult to store and access as a memories, and near impossible to articlate to others...

Mckenna articulates this is in a much more eloquent manner than myself:





-eg

At a certain point, ego death and loss of consciousness become functionally equivalent - if you're unable to make new memories and unable to be self-aware of your own consciousness 'you' won't be having any kind of meaningful experience. Certainly not one that you can take back.

I've heard people calling it 'white out' rather than 'black out.'

Consciousness seems to exist in a fairly narrow range of brain activities - kick the brain too far out of that band, in any direction, and consciousness will fail, even if other systems don't. There are reports of folks overdoing it on shrooms who apparently loose consciousness, while displaying very bizarre behavior.

Blessings
~ND

I think differently about everything after DMT, including LSD.

Personally, I enjoy the LSDMT very much. Synergy.

I subscribe DmnStr8!

There is a powerful bond between the two and it feels like they were meant for each other, but for me at least DMT sets the pace over the LSD experience. Taken separately they just can't be compared even with LSD having the tryptamine status. Taken together on the other hand they intertwine impeccable as one. Lately if I do decide to have some LSD I do it for the synergy... just