I like the direction this discussion is going.

My motivation for teasing apart spiritual speculation about these experiences is to get down to realistic explanation for why these things might happen.

Ok sure lots of psychedelic hallucinations can be explained by the "cartridge" effects (lets just call it that for simplicity). Neurons responding differently to different stimuli. But lets move on to discuss the difficult 1 in 1000 experiences that ibeing is talking about.

But lets do it in a way by using what we already know about the brain. Our brain evolved to function in this world on this planet. Our brain has many mechanisms for filtering out useless information. Perhaps these weird encounters with other dimensions could be explained as the filtering mechanism that gets rid of all that is opened. It doesn't mean we are gaining any new senses just changing the way we filter the information. These experiences certainly can be looked at as being evolutionarily useless and a brain that filters our less important information and can focus on breeding and eating is more likely to survive. But we have two things that induce such things. Damage to the brain and mental illness can effect our filters. So can psychedelic drugs.

Perhaps when our filters our down we can perceive some aspect of objective reality that we didn't evolve to have any need for. Like a by product of having a brain is that its possible to perceive this aspect of reality with our filters turned off. But what is it? What does it mean? This is where there is too much wild speculation I feel and it leads to chaotic and nonsensical theories (like terrence mckennas babbling).

This is what excites me about these experiences. There is a realistic possibility that we can encounter hyperdimensional beings or whatever. But whats exciting is that we are now in a position to begin answering the question as to whether or not its a hallucination or not. I honeslty don't care much what the result is if its true or false but I find it just amazing that we have the tools to begin teasing apart such a fascinating question. DMT is a good tool for this I think.




http://www.nature.com/nr...al/v3/n4/abs/nrn783.html

Thats only one paper that is studying this stuff. There are MANY. But your right these studies do not say exactly what consciousness is they just provide evidence that points to consciousness being a result of brain activity. Everything we know about brain damage and mental illness also provides such evidence. We are closer then we were hundreds of years ago to understanding consciousness. Our technology is making it more possible everyday.



NDE's have lots of explanations. If someone has no EEG they can have the NDE before or after the 'shutdown' and to them it can feel like it took a long time but it can happen in the brain in a flash much the way dreams are. Or perhaps there is still some brain activity happening we just can't observe it with the methods used. The work John Lilly did with isolation experiments also points to an explanation for NDE's. So does drugs like ketamine. WHen there is no stimuli coming into the brain or the brain isn't interpreting it, the brain makes up things to fill that void. Thats why people project images in an isolation tank.

NDE's can traverse cultures because its the same thing happening in the brain. But notice how someone brought up in christian culture will have visions of jesus and someone brought up in hindu religion might have different visions even if they aren't believers. There is a cultural context to the types of visions people have. At least it appears that way I do'nt know how much its been studied.



Why not? It seems to be working so far.



haha see this is where the misunderstanding is. The idea does'nt come from faith it comes from evidence.

Ok so the universe appears to be expanding but thats not enough evidence, there is more. Back in the day scientists predicted that if there was a big bang there would be radiation left over. We have found that radiation (it was found by people who weren't looking for it). That radiation has been mapped and guess what? It looks exactly how it should look given the positions of galaxies and everything else we can see in the universe. They have relooked at it again with more sensitive satillites. And the picture was even more perfect. Its called the cosmic microwave backround radiation. Its the most powerful evidence for an early hot expansion of the universe and its amazing that we have seen it.

Also there is natural explanations about how the universe could have come from nothing. Its not faith there is a mathematical frame work for it. The only way to get more answers is to continue probing the depths of matter and nature. The LHC is about to start doing this very soon.

It doesnt matter if there is a positive relationship between phenomenon in subjective consciousness and in the visible measurable aspects of the brain.. Positive relationship does not necessarily imply cause and effect.. we have talked about this before burnt, a tv doesnt create the images, though one can change things in the tv and the images be changed in a direct relationship.


But burnt is right that there is evidence for the big bang, saidin, which does not rely in faith. BUT, the fact that matter, as we know it, came at some point in time togehter, doesnt mean that this is the beginning of ALL EXISTENCE.. just of our observable universe (of which there may be plenty, infinite even, interacting/coliding with each other or not, being born and dying).. And as fractal enchantment rightly said in the beginning, there is is still the ultimate mistery why is there any existence at all.

This is not to say there is a bearded fatherly figure pulling strings, but just that, ultimately, there is The Great Unknown, which expresses itself in many ways, whether that is mathematical limits such as Godel theorems, or physical limits such as heisenbergs uncertainty principles, or the thousands of singularities present in current theories of the universe (black holes, what was before the big bang, what comes after the big crunch if it comes, etc).. All of these are Unknowns, which we can only crudely examine with our limited human brains and resources.

When one adds all of these Unknowns togehter, there is the ultimate question which is "why does anything exist", that everybody asks themselves and also answers to themselves, not with a sentence or knowledge but with a metaphor. Some people may have the Bearded God metaphor, others may have the Endlessly Fluctuating Dead Random Machine metaphor... Whatever image one paints over it, we gotta know it is beyond... So lets not put too much energy into what our metaphor is (and get angry and kill each other for it), but rather lets look at how we are acting and what the consequences are.

This also puts things into perspective.. Sure its worthy to explore and try to find out more about the world, physics, laws and so on.. But what about human relationships, social practices, sustainable living, education, etc.. Where should our budgets be used? As an example, this new super computer in the UK to predict climate changes, which itself releases 12.000 tons of C02 a year, haha.. Not to mention all the costs and land degradation and pollution related to the manufacturing of all the material used in the supercomputer, which isnt even counted.

So is there anything? Yes, there is an ultimate mistery, a curiosity to learn ever more not only of the 'physical' world but of the emotional/subjective world, coupled with the necessity to put it in practice right now and make the meaning of our lives not the absurdly lop-sided unbalanced quest for some ultimate equation, but rather that the way to find the equations has been paved with positive actions and balanced development

(sorry for the long post )

Personally - i just think materialism is the easy way out or just pure ignorance(the ignorant will not be punished) - ppl get trapped in boxes of obsession, once uv done the obsessive circuit a few times all exits fade(one cant see out of their box), leaving one stuck in a box until death and a chance to try again.

The point of a screwdriver is to - unscrew,
The point of Life is to Live

Get past all the distractions caused by social conditioning, be human not a product of the 21st century(western culture has been planned - all aspects of it)
Open your eyes and use ur brain to interpret what you have seen/experienced - dont rely on "facts" provable by ppl that have been trained to proove things.

Your right but its evidence. Its not proof. But its evidence. There is lots of it. Doesn't that imply that it could be a resonable explanation? I'm open to others but most of the time they have NO evidence.



That makes no sense. Materialism has answered so many questions about the world that have a direct impact on improving the quality of life of millions of living people. Its not an easy way out. It took hundreds of years of hard work by dedicated people. Its not an "ism" its just what we know so far about the world.



Yes so lets ignore the doctor when we have a spreading infection that his antibiotics can save our life. Lets just ignore it because he was trained to think that way. Your kind of thinking is dangerous.

Its so easy for people in todays world to ignore all the benefits they get from our materialistic explanations for things. i equate it with out right arrogance and ungratefulness.

burnt - i was actually posting a response to the real question of this thread - this threads post no#1
There are loads of ways to misinterpret or misunderstand what i was saying - especially when taken in the wrong context.

My view is that the material world is a surface manifestation of many (infinite?) levels of existence, which ultimately ends in the One we are all from and part of, or God if you want to see it that way.
Even when people study brain scans, molecular structures and stuff like that, it is in my view lower level material stuff, which is really interesting but is still a higher level manifestation of something deeper... yes we can go deeper breaking things down to quarks and such... but I still think it is a study of the deeper workings of the amazing machine that is material reality.

And the whole thing about seeking proofs for everything... gets a bit tiring.. I mean, if you know something deeply, if you feel it, then it simply is. Proofs only work within the same system as the thing you are trying to prove. I can prove that gravity exists, but IMO trying to prove stuff from other levels of existence just isnt going to work, or be very difficult and unpredictable.

At the end of the day, the most fundamental thing we have is BEING, and LOVE is the force that holds us together. Why do I need proof for that? It is what I feel and have experienced. IMO the constant search for proof is quite egotistical in a way. Its like "I say this and I can prove it so its true and I AM RIGHT" and then someone else comes along and says "I have proved that your theory is wrong and I am right" etc etc. Not that the theories are not useful, just that there is often some Ego attached to them, and as we all know in hyperspace there is no room for Ego.

But this does not explain why these experiences are all the same. Why would lack of stimulation to the brain create the same experience in a 7 year old as compared to a 70 year old? An athiest compared to a devout Christian? Man compared to a woman? An Australian Aborigine compared to a Buddhist monk? Did every single person put in an isolation tank have the same experience? Does everyone who takes drugs have the same hallucination? There is a question of commonality across cultures/ages/bliefs that cannot be easily explained. Yes there are differences, Jesus/Hindu; Tunnel/Cross a Sea, etc..but the essential experience is the same. I guess the exact same electical activity, exact same neurotransmitters in the exact amounts firing at the exact same time, in the exact same place in the brain, and all their brains being identical would correlate to them all having the same experience. That is just not possible. Saying before or after a flatline EEG is just an attempt to say that the experiences are not valid, and is contrary to what the evidence suggests.

Also neurobiology can tell us nothing about what it is like to experience things subjectively. Yes they can point to certain areas of the brain that light up with activity when we experience things, but that tells us nothing of what it is like to feel, to have that subjective experience that we as indivuated consciousnesses have. So a bunch of chemicals fire in the brain, but it does not explain in the slightest what it is like to experience love, or altruism, or the color purple. What do you feel when you love? What is the experience of meeting a long lost friend again after many years? Maybe it is just language that is a barrier, but that in an of itself tells us volumes, that after millions of years of evolution and experiencing these things, tens of thousands of years of spoken language, and thousands of years of written language, you cannot possibly communicate to me the nature of the subjective experience of love, or any subjective experience for that matter. Sure you can list off physiological reactions to it, but not what you experience, of being you and experiencing the mystery that is life.



Yes, there is evidence of the effect, but not of the cause. To speculate on a singularity is just that speculation. One can infer from evidence what happened after the moment, but not the cause, therefore it is unprovable and in the end, not science in the materialist perspective. I'm familiar with some of the natural explanaions, and they are all severly lacking in one form or another, in the end are nothing but a guess, and as unsatisfying as the old white dude with a beard allegory. At this point it is not possible to know how something came from nothing. Does it mean a creator? Certainly not, but our understanding the origin of everythign we know is a metaphysical mystery, with no proof as to the cause.

The LHC will hopefully answer some questions but undoubtedly create many many more. It may help understand the effect in greater detail, but I don't believe it will tell us anything of the cause.

A great discussion, unfortunately I am travelling in South Africa, and won't have reliable access to internet for another week. Hope I don't miss to much and can continue to contribute. This site rocks!

nice saidin - do u work for the U.N ? hehe

Naw. My father made travel documentaries and instilled a love of travel in me at an early age. I have been to about 50 countries, all 7 continents, and lived in both France and Ecuador. I work so that I can travel, saving enough money so that I can see some place that interests me, live in and learn about the culture. It has afforeded me the perspective that we are all the same, no matter where we come from. We all have the same hopes, desires, and needs no matter what our circumstances.

I am truly blessed to have been granted the opportunities I have. This current trip to Namibia and South Africa has been amazing, one of the most interesting and rewarding I have ever done.

Namaste

Saidin, are you familiar with Mellen-Thomas Benedict? He was dead for 90 minutes but came back. Brain tumor gone... all well documented evidence.
He says the Light told him that everything is physical - even karma

I guess I'm slowly turning into a non-dualist, I'm starting to think matter is just as spiritual as spirit is material...

Underestimating the value of subjective experience is a mistake. We all agree dreams are a real phenomenon because we talk about it and exchange experiences about our nightly excursions all the time. The trip report section here is probably one of the most popular. Information exchange might lead to 'evidence' in the long run...

Materialists may know in ever increasing detail how matter behaves, but they have no clue about why the rules are what they are.
Math is something completely conceptual, yet matter obeys mathematical rules. How come?

Maybe laws of nature are subject to bigger processes, like there is an ultra-large thing going on... maybe an evolution of sets of rules (the 'laws of nature'. No proof yet...

Some take shrooms and see deep secrets being revealed. Some eat shrooms and see a tree that looks funny.
We're all different with different experiences and different levels of consciousness.

I am not familiar with that particular case, but I'll definately look it up. I had heard about NDEs but hadn't looked into them closely until recently and found myself amazed with the similarity of them across all classifications. There has been a lot of research done into them, well documented by doctors and nurses, and I was suprised that their commonalities were not more widely known.

I have become a non-dualist myself. My current belief is that matter and spirit and two sides of the same coin. That matter is just spirit in a different form, a lower vibrational waveform that gives apparent solidity to things. The two are inseparable.

Are you familiar with David Bohm's concept of the Implicate and the Explicate? It represents something similar to this, that there is an implicate order out of which the explicate folds and unfolds creating the world of solid objects of which we percieve. That we are just one of a nestled set of orders within existence. There is apparent disorder in the universe, but that is only because we cannot percieve the greater order from which it is made manifest.

This also is similar to the Buddhist concept of cause and effect. That you cannot have an effect without a cause, and that everything is connected, as the causes for things go on adinfinitum back to the moment of the big bang.

phlux my bad i think i mis-interpreted what you were saying. easy to do on internet. i just meant it was dangerous to ignore facts especially when some are really important for survival.

saidin enjoy SA its a beautiful country. i am sure this discussion will be continueing as it always does on the nexus

100% agreed burnt - no facial expressions or changing tone in a persons voice does make it alot easier to mis-interpret whats being said - im guilty of doing the same, probably more often than i think.
hehe U know im a rational dude.

Of course there is, how can something be nothing and nothing be something. Its a very comforting thought that there is no point to life other than just to live it. This point of view is the easy way out and what a lot of people convince themselves is the case sure when i die I'm just going to go into a nice and blissful sleep and everything will become nothingness. What would be the point of our existence if we were here for no reason?

But how is this scientifically possible energy can never just dissipate into nothingness. Is there any credible evidence to support the view that there is nothing to this life and nothing to your death? Have you ever observed one material thing become nothing? There is plenty of evidence to support the probability of post death existence of consciousness. Everything in nature exhibits continuity and change so why would it be any different with our natural death process?

Just some thoughts to think about.....

Much Peace

WELCOME TO ENLIGHTENMENT! No meaning... no god... just existence. A lottery-winning sperm and egg granted a lifetime of wonder inhabiting a stable period within a chaotic universe. Enjoy it, and help others to enjoy it too.


(EDIT: The wink denoted that this is, of course, a personal opinion!)

On an interesting and related tangent, my Iboga healer, while under Iboga, asked it "Why are we here? What's the meaning of this life?"

All he got in response, in his Iboga visions, was a small tongue going around licking things! This seems to imply that the purpose of life is really quite simple...to experience and to learn...taste, think, feel, love and all that kind of stuff.

He is also adamant that death is not the end, but when we do pass on, we won't be able to indulge in these physical experiences any more.

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form." This isn't some new age thing I just cooked up, but the third law of thermodynamics. If any of you have watched a pet or someone die, the appearance of someone or something that has died is a lot different to that person or animal when it is simply resting...that energy has got go somewhere. Just my thoughts anyway.

Sorry I haven't replied in a while but I just read through all that was said. To those who are saying that there is something greater i definitely respect that but i adamantly believe that there is not and I don't see that changing. I don't really have much more to say. As far as wondering how the consciousness gets there from otherwise innocuous electrons protons and neutrons look no further than your computer. Alone, your motherboard, RAM, video card are pretty much useless. When they are gridded together and run off of some kind of basic operating system, you have a running system. You can choose to install programs or to just use the functions that are there from the beginning. I don't know just a thought, I'm not trying to sound. You may go on to say well we inherently have flaws and such that computers don't that make us soulful. Try firing an ak47 or taking a flight in one of the concord jets or even just drive an alfa romeo and you will see that machinery can seem like it has soul.

The way we work is no doubt like a computer, from our heart, to our lungs to our brain..... but its the fact that we are able to contemplate all this and not throw it aside that lets you in on the 'fact' there is something more. A computer will eventually be able to look, sound, and behave just like me.... but I dont believe it will ever be able to take a hit of DMT and say to itself, 'wow, why wasnt I programmed with that??'

I concur. Perhaps it will seem weak to say something such as this, but I felt very liberated when I realised that no matter what type of experience (spiritual, religious, psychosis etc) I could have, it would be the product of my brain.

Realising "this is it" was so profound for me, after many years of searching. I am fairly certain death is similiar to sleeping, although the threat of non-being and nihilism is always present, it makes life and experience so much more precious.