Hey all,

I recently spoke to a friend who returned from an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru, and I found his description of the experience rather depressing, the whole thing seemingly out of touch with any sense of authenticity. I would call it more placebo-spirituality for people with to much money and no meaning

It seems that many look to Ayahuasca as an easy solution to their "problems" or a means of gloating about sure-to-be-found Enlightenment, not as potentially terrifying means towards the truth. Ayahuasca should be scary as heck.

Thoughts?

P. S. Does anyone know how to create a poll? I tried but it never showed up

i am just reading Julian Palmers "Articulations on the utilisaton and meanings of psychedelics" and just came across a passage where he states that most shamans who give Ayahuasca to Westerners are actually self-taught.
So that might explain the "depressing" experience.

i do not think it should be scary, more a feeling of being a secret (not necessary in a religious meaning)

If I can bring clarity to my original post, I was me that was depressed (more irritated) by the description my friend offered. Based on this description , the whole ceremony seemed like a fraud to what I conceive of as the "real" thing.

i personally do not care about ceremonies, i think in some sense they steal the show from the plant.

i have not been part of a a Ayahuasca ceremony yet, but i can relate it to my shrooms experiences. I had the best time at home in a dark room with some light music where the shrooms could take their way.
When there is some "sudo-shaman" trying to impress a group of people how good a he can lead a ceremony it does distract me and takes attention from the journey itself.

Same here. Every time I did my formosahuasca it was in this manner. Just me and the plant.

Most people fail to research things properly. If they did, they would know that there is no such thing as a 'quick remedy' to problems, especially deep ingrained ones.

It usually takes time to resolve issues, and whilst a few Ayahuasca ceremonies may 'shake things up', the work with the vine teachings during the integration phase, will be where the real healing occurs.

Ayahuasca has many uses, and works in vary subtle ways. It may be, but should not necessarily be 'scary as heck', and is safer to use in Ceremony because that involves controlling the experience as well as maintaining a protected space.

I've been finding this to be the case quite profoundly, recently. My sober states of integration have often been far more profound and life-changing than everything that happens during the trips themselves. As if they're merely preparation for everything, including the integration, that happens between.

I feel like many, if not the majority of people who go to these Ayahuasca retreats (luxury resorts) have no interest in having a proper understanding of anything, including their problems. The resort is as much of an escape as the real goal of the experience.

My friend talked about integrating what he learned, but I think he'll be more likely trying to escape it.

Who knows the full reasons why people do that?

Some will go out of curiosity, some will go for healing in a safe and supportive setting, but i guess only they know why they do what they do.

People are complex.

The only ceremony I participated in was one in which no one actually led it, rather it was a tribe of like minded individuals who all help each other. I got a lot out of it.

Won't touch on ceremonies and groups vs. individual but rather the problem of quality & strength of experience.

The hardest thing about Ayahuasca is the "problem child" part of it (not the caapi) but rather the hard to find good quality Hawaiian leaf. It is sporadic and difficult to find. Over the past several years had over 60 experiences in dreams, all with quality caapi and only good quality Hawaiian leaf. Too much leaf = terrifying experiences where only closing the eyes I was able to ride it thru (like peeling back the layer of an onion infinite times with eyes open, and even the slightest movement, say 1/2 of an inch of the body, would trigger massive new fluorescent CEV's with a new direction and theme), but with the right amount of leaf = perfect experiences that would last a good 3 to 4 hours with 90 minutes of very strong activity.

Learned how to modulate the strength by first brewing the leaf down to 3oz, then tasting it to see how bitter it was, the more bitter the stronger. With the leaf had at the time, 25g = perfect, 30g = strong, 35g = a bit too strong, 40g = ego loss. There is a fine line between a perfect mildly strong experience and ego loss, a matter of just 15 extra grams, but sometimes the leaf would be double the potency depending on the time of day it was picked, and in which case it would be double the bitterness, in which case learned to pour 1/2 of it out, and just use 1/2 of the leaf brew....took lots of experience to learn the bitterness trick, but it worked flawlessly thereafter. After accidentaly consuming in dreams lots of overly-bitter leaf brew which resulted in overly strong experiences, learned the perfect bitterness, and thus potency which I loved. When you get it right, it is heavenly.

25 to 35 grams was perfect to strong territory which was amazing to say the least, but 40 gram ego loss territory -- had been there a few times, and prefer to stay as far away from as possible, no fun, quite terrifying...but 25 to 35 grams was completely and absolutely amazing, but like I said, you gotta really watch the bitterness and use that as a gauge as 25 grams would sometimes (rarely like about 1 time out of 10) be like 50 grams when some of the leaf was picked at the "prime time of day", in which case it was extremely bitter, and not something you would want to drink all of in dreams, but use only 1/2 of instead.

And yes, you do want to take the leaf brew at the exact same time as the caapi brew, all mixed together in dreams, but test the bitterness of the leaf first! These days it is rare to find good quality leaf, but it does happen, and often a very long wait, thus the problem child in the mix. Page 149 of attached paper shows the tremendous variability of actives vs. time of day. Most leaf would be 1mg per g, and much more lower quality at 1/2mg per g. There is very little out there at anything above those levels despite what page 148 and 149 reveal. The dynamics of digestion in dreams of the leaf in it's natural boiled down salt liquid form is unbeatable & very special. To me, easy vs. hard Ayahuasca is all about quality of the problem child, which is quite a chore these days to locate. Bad quality is no fun and expensive...it's a long waiting game. Chaliponga do not like: unpredictable and can be physically taxing & scary....but chacruna is the kindest and non-toxic/safe/traditionally used by Shuar, UDV, Santo Daime, etc.

This. This.

True. True.

BUT.....

Ayahuasca is Ayahuasca with or without light plants, also individual tastes and dreams may vary.

Very true, 'ayahuasca' vine, etc. Very true though, totally slipped me, thanks for pointing that out.