Lizz, i think you misinterpreted what i was saying. There is a difference between explaining something and justifying something.
It's well known for instance, that people with more symmetrical faces tend to do better in life, careerwise. That's just a fact. I'm not saying that it's nice or that this is the way it's supposed to be. i'm not saying any of that at all.
What i was doing is giving a possible explanation for why many men and women tend to behave the way they do. Why some men put women on a pedestal, why some women like to be put on a pedestal, and why some women have reasons not reject all of that.

Humans áre animals. And we behave like animals in many, many ways. Primatologists like frans de waal have written whole books about the little 'political' games primates play, and how they resemble human behaviour.

Apparently i did hit a nerve, and i'm sorry if that offended you. But your reaction fitted my description quite neatly. I said that women who're considered to be unatractive by most men, will generally end up at the bottom of the social hierarchy, and that this could explain why some women fiercely reject the whole idea of a social hierarchy (and also why some people, like the so-called 'beauty queens', will defend this existing social hierarchy)
You took my explanation for a justification and responded by fiercely rejecting the idea of a social hierarchy. And your arguments seemed to somewhat fit the description of third wave feminism.

again, there is a difference between describing or explaining something, and saying that this is the way it's supposed to be.

And just take a deep breath and count to ten next time, before jumping to conclusions about another persons intentions please.

I'm all about feminism (so long as it's intersectional). I guess I most identify with anarcha-feminism, which is feminism with a decidedly anarchist bent.

I'm also genderqueer/trans (still trying to figure some of that out), although I was assigned male at birth (AMAB), so I may be able to provide a little insight into how society treats people differently based on their presentation. It is absolutely true that people treat me differently when I'm wearing a t-shirt and cargo shorts without nails done or make-up, than when I've painted my nails, or tried to look 'pretty.'

My feelings can generally be summed up like this:

Gender is a social construct and a fiction. Burn that mother to the ground.
(I feel the same way about the 'sex binary.'

Given that we are sort of forced into gender roles, I understand the need for an explicitly gendered feminism, but IFF you are also making space for trans people, genderqueer/agender people, and are working towards *liberation* rather than *assimilation.*

Blessings
~ND

This will be my last post in this thread.



Acknowledging one injustice does not negate all others. Naming the fact that women face certain realities in the world doesn't imply that men don't face their own set of struggles. On top of that, most feminists I know would argue that most of the problems men deal with are a result of the same attitudes, beliefs, and institutions that impact women. The cultural assumption that men have to act a certain way is detrimental not just to women but to men who wont/cant fit this mold. The unrealistic expectations placed on men to be primary breadwinners, to be "protectors", etc... is a feminist issue.



Well, look at the next statistic. The odds are not exactly in their favor. When you go to the police to report a sexual assault, there is only a 3% chance it will actually be dealt with as a crime, and a .3% chance that anything will be done about it. Reporting abuse puts survivors in vulnerable positions, and if nothing comes out of it there can be serious social and physical repercussions.



That statistic defined sexual assault as any kind of sexual contact in which the victim was unable to consent (eg they were drugged or manipulated), forced intercourse, and/or unwanted sexual touching.

Are men sometimes falsely accused of sexual assault? Absolutely, and it's a terrible thing. But that happens at a much lower rate than men who are justly accused of sexual assault who are not held accountable at all. It's not fair or reasonable to automatically assume a woman is lying, the data simply doesn't support it. I don't want to open a whole other can of worms, but I think your point brings up issues surrounding how we deal w/ criminal justice in general--which, if you wanted to get into the nitty-gritty of it, is also a feminist issue (see intersectional theory).



I see your point, but I think it's naive to assume women sexually assault men as frequently as men do it to women. But I'll bite, and let's pretend the rates are equal. Even in that case, the fact that men would be afraid to report this because of their fragile sense of masculinity is a feminist issue.



I'm all for skepticism and healthy debate. But some things are not debatable. Debate for its own sake, particularly when the well-being of other people is at stake, isn't productive. I'm not going to patiently debate w/ someone who believes the earth is flat when we damn well know that it's not. I'm not going to debate that climate change is actually happening with someone when I could be spending my time trying to address the problem. Obviously it's important to explain your perspective, but when people have been doing it for years and the data is publicly available, there's a point where folks lose their patience. I've attached a picture to the end of this post which sums up my opinion on "debate culture" when it comes to social issues. I've shared it here before, but it's still relevant.



Congrats, you're a feminist! How does it feel?



From wikipedia: In the United States, the gender pay gap is measured as the ratio of female to male median yearly earnings among full-time, year-round (FTYR) workers...The raw wage gap data shows that a woman would earn roughly 73.7% to 77% of what a man would earn over their lifetime. However, when controllable variables are accounted for, such as job position, total hours worked, number of children, and the frequency at which unpaid leave is taken, in addition to other factors, a U.S. Department of Labor study, conducted by the CONSAD Research Group, found in 2008 that the gap can be brought down from 23% to between 4.8% and 7.1%

So yes, the gap is significantly smaller when you factor those things in. But that said, this study (2007) and this study, which I admit is quite dated but I believe is still relevant, (among countless others) show that women and mothers are much less likely to be hired for the same job as men even when their applications are identical.

As for the rest of the statistics: National Sexual Violence Resource Center, Statistics Canada



If you accidentally and unknowingly step on my foot, I'm going to do my best to inform you of what happened. If your response is, "Prove it. Even if I did I'm sure it didn't hurt that bad," I'm going to get angry. But lets say I let it go that one time. But it keeps happening, and whenever it does I do my best to point it out to you. If you genuinely don't see what you're doing wrong, fine--I can concede that. But at some point your response should be, "I'm sorry I keep hurting you. I will make an effort to pay more attention to what I'm doing so as to prevent this from happening in the future."

Feminists don't want more debate, and they don't have to keep proving themselves so that men will validate their experiences. History shows that confrontation is the most effective way to overcome injustice. The whole point of "3rd wave feminism" (or any other social movement) is to make people uncomfortable. When people are continuously pushed outside of their comfort zone, they want it to stop, and they'll eventually change their behavior. You could say that this doesn't work and only alienates people, but history says otherwise--and here you and I are having a real conversation, as men, about our relationship w/ women. Would that be happening if the OP hadn't been pushed out of their comfort zone?

If you don't think that patriarchy exists, OK. We all have to start somewhere. But as men, we can be critical thinkers and do some self-reflection when women tell us that our behavior is harmful. You don't have to see it right away. But reasonable people, when told they are doing something wrong, do their best to avoid that behavior even if they don't always understand why. Over time you might start to notice patterns you hadn't before, and you may even grow from it. It's not going to kill you, I promise.



Apathy is not an attractive trait, my friend. Simply because you don't feel that you are directly impacted by something doesn't mean that it isn't important. I would argue that the well-being of women (or any person) is more important than your desire to get high. But maybe I'm missing something.

^ re Praxis' post..

i wish we had Like like on f.b.

Here's my question: what exactly are the third wave feminists trying to prove that actually has to do with feminism (the goal of which revolves around womens rights)? Though we may debate te exact statistics and causes, no one is denying that rape is a recurring problem in our society, and that the perpetrators are usually men. I fail to see how rape, a disgusting act commited by a disturbed man, is then turned into a social issue (rape culture). What CULTURE?? Rape is a symptom of a disturbed man, not a disturbed "mankind", nor does the way rape is treated by SOCIETY actually reflect any kind of sexist or discriminatory tendencies originating from men. The conviction rates for all rapes are low, simply because it's hard to prove that it happened, which in turn leads people to prefer not to say anything...all of this is unfortunate, but I needn't look for an answer as to why it happens other than the way our legal system is constructed: innocent until proven guilty. Thus, I ask why this third-wave takes it upon themselves "to push me out of my comfort zone" and make ME feel, as a man, responsible for rape? What did all men do to desrve this? Hell yes I feel alienated. Should I feel responsible for the Holocaust because I'm part german?

Rape culture refers to the culture/system that exists wherein women aren't taken seriously due to normalization of sexual assault and victim-blaming ("boys will be boys", "she shouldn't have been drinking", "she was asking for it" ) when they report being raped, leading to the stats Praxis mentioned wherein a very small percentage of rapes actually get treated as crimes by the authorities (prosecution rate not conviction rate), thereby allowing rape to continue on a widespread scale with minimal interference from the law. Just because it doesn't effect us, or rarely does, does not mean it doesn't exist. I think a lot of confusion arises because when people hear "rape culture" and "college campus" they picture a bunch of frat guys raping unconscious girls at parties every weekend by the droves as what is being symbolized by the phrase when feminists use it, when it really is describing the fact that it's a widespread phenomenon with low prosecution and conviction rates, making it statistically a low risk crime considering its severity and social impact. The term 'rape culture' doesn't refer to a culture wherein rape is openly encouraged or allowed, but rather the systemic way in which society downplays the experiences of women who claim to be victims of rape and largely fails to either investigate or bring justice to them.

Also losing faith that this thread can turn into something productive since the screaming and shouting is already starting, but would still like to adress a few important points, even though some adressees don't want this debate no more:

@Lizz



What gives you the right to define how people would like to be treated?
A lot of people are happy emulating. Furthermore, there is no necessary correlacion between wanting to be a sex object and what the elite "dictates".



Peacocky men show they have abundant ressources, which is attractive for females who want to have children. Peacocks show this by their ridiciolous feather display. Humans have other signals. Society does not tell us this, evolutionary psychology does.





By that i meant, that everyone has different talents. It makes no sense for instance, to have A (!) physically inferior woman work construction for instance. Doesn't imply worth.

@Praxis



Yes, but tell that third wave feminists.



What about the problems of "Cis Males" then? Do they not count?
Also, the "mold" you are talking about is part of the standard cultural script which fulfills purposes. Of course it can and should be negotiated, but it is not "evil" per se.



That statement i find really troublesome, and that it is also being applauded on the nexus.
Social issues have been, are and will be constructed to manipulate people. If we feign away from debating them, we are allowing manipulatory tactics to take precedence over free speech.

I'd also agree with big guy in the picture who is standing on the other guys neck.
The world is not evil by definition, it does not exist TO cause pain to people with different gender ideologies, minorities etc. It might in fact cause part of these problems...but it is the responsible of those who feel surpressed to rise up, take matters into their own hands. One idea for instance, would be to report that you've been sexually assaulted and maybe even traumatized. To me, a better option instead of trying to silence those who do not agree with you.



I've noticed. That's why some of these people resort to physical assault. Something, which they are supposedly be fighting.



Oh, there are plenty of females who disagree with the sentiments of third wave feminists.



As i observe it, it only leads to a lot of inflammation which hinders debate. But since debate isn't wanted by you or 3rd wave feminists..what is there more to say? Just know that i personally do not give into the opinion of those who scream the loudest. Even though, as you might argue, i've been molded to to exactly this by the elite.



I never said i wasn't a feminist. I'm just partial to reason.

@psybin



Thanks for the clarification. I wonder what the consequences of that could be:

A social justice system that operates on hearsay?
I mean, there are certainly clear cut cases, where rape accusations are very believable. For instance: If there have been multiple unconnected accusations in the past, the person is known to be violent, the person was seen near the crime scene etc...

But i would guess that in many many cases, the situation isn't so clear.
Would it be acceptable to give people the chance to destroy someones life just by reporting they have been raped? I do not understand why not sentencing people for rape is a sign of "rape culture". It is a crime which is hard to prove and the stakes are quite high in the cases of misjudgements.

I would say that there's a design fault in our justice system. Our great strength as humans is our empathy. But empathy has it's limitations. We empathize more with people we know than with strangers. We empathise more with people like ourselves than with people who're very different from us, and we empathise more with concrete human beings than with people who's existence is abstract to us, people we only know as a statistic.

On itself that is not such a bad thing. We are not in the position to love every human being as much as we love our own family, without the love for our family becoming more or less meaningless.

But in the justice system this actually is a shortcoming.
Numerous studies have been done, and time and time again it shows, that when a criminal becomes a person to us, we tend to Judge milder than we initially would.

Now, in sentencing criminals we basically have to decide between two conflicting interests: those of a person found guilty of a crime, and those of potential future victims.

The potential future victims are abstract to us, so we tend to empathise more with the rapist, than with his potential future victims.

If rape is a low risk crime, so logic dictates that sentences should be very high. But they are not because of this little shortcoming of us.

Most people find lifelong sentences inhumane, but you might as well argue that allowing a convicted rapist to rape again would be at least as inhumane, if not much more inhumane. When you've been raped, that's bad enough. To come to know that your rapist has raped dozens of times before, will however feel as a form of betrayal, by society. Apparently society has not been willing to protect you against a sexual predator, then.

But this is a lacking that counts for all violent crimes. When push comes to shove, we tend to be pretty tolerant towards acts of brutal violence.

Thanks to the first and second waves feminists who have managed to forge what today is a almost totally egalitarian society (in terms of men and woman). And yet the problem you mention above still exists. Why then is somehow directly the fault of exclusively men? Why can it not be said the society as a whole needs to change it's views of rape, take the issue more seriously? Both men and women are raped, by both men a women. It is not a female vs. male issue, it is a struggle of the individual within a heartless society, a struggle that society as a whole, not just men, needs to address.

I disagree. Equal rights does mean that women can be as much of an asshole as some men. Otherwise they are not completely equal. They are allowed some of the benefits that men have but not the benfit of being an asshole?? That is unfair and continues to promote the out dated Judeo christian concepts of virtue and chastity. These Judeo Christian concepts of virtue in turn promote rape rather than negate it as any female not pertaining to these ideals can be considered by some as "asking for it" due to their perceived lack of moral integrity.



I disagree with this. I have been with women who have fantasized about and enjoyed rough sex and it has had nothing to do with them being abused as a child. It is simply because they, like some men, are partial to a bit of rough every once in a while. I think that the idea that women only like fluffy unicorn sex is unrealistic and further promotes inequality.


You got any reliable statistics for this? What about date rape? If these people were such frustrated losers they wouldn't be out on dates.




Rape is mostly committed by men and so it is very much up to them to take the initiative on this.

My original question was very specific and has unfortunately been trampled by the herd...

Nevertheless it's fascnating to look at the tendencies in this post/debate, and then to magnify those tendencies into the macro level of society, wherupon it can be seen that they are the same.

That said, no one has really brought much in the way of new perspecives, nor tried to understand the one I originally asked for opinions on (to be fair, my original question was ill posed)

I hope we can all reunite now in the discussion of one thing.

What I now offer up for discussion, not irrelated to my orginal question, is as follows: Yes, men are the main perpetrators of rape, overwhelmingly so. But is an individual's choice to rape not one symptom, in an alredy disturbed person, of something much more hideous? And that that, (and I would like to discuss what that is), is now no more the fault of men or of women, and not something that either can deal with alone? That it is counterproductive to lay blame to men, or to men's rape "culture", as this third wave so often does.

The kind of rape culture that undermines rape, downplays the suffering of the victims; this is not men, it is a sick society. It's everyone as a collective that is out of touch.

So, thoughts?

You can't make statements during a thread, get responses to these statements and then say your question is being trampled by the herd no matter what your original question happened to be. You have said it is to do with rejection of judeo christian morals and i said that i do not agree, which can hardly be described as trampling. I am starting to sympathise with your feminist friend that you argued with if this is is your modus operandi during discussions. Especially if you started saying things like "i agree with equal rights for women but this equality doesn't include the right to be an asshole like some men are" -that in itself is sexist.

I have a feeling that you are looking for posts that may vindicate your argument with her.



This seems to me to be a bit of a woolly statement. So it is not surprising that people are going to go off on tangents that are loosely related to your questions. Why don't you expand on your thoughts in relation to the hideous part of culture that gives rise to rape and what can be done to help.
Get the ball rolling in the right direction so to speak,,....

but hug46, don't you think that porn has a bad influence on young people?
Don't you think that it tends to display forms of behaviour that are somewhat unhealthy, that would actually stand in the way of a persons happyness if he/she would make a habit out of it?

Don't you think that if young people would come to believe that bondage, slapping a woman, squeezing her throat, putting objects in her anus or calling her a slut, is the norm, that this would be bad for their future sexual health?

^^^

Some women who feel powerful in their daily lives get off on being dominated and degraded sexually.

The same culture (which is perpetuated by both men and women, it's true) that tacitly condones rape/harassment, blames survivors, and trivializes the reality of sexual assault is the SAME culture that stratifies society by gender, giving men, throughout history, the overwhelming power and authority, while putting women is subservient places is key.

Yes, you are correct when you say that it's not just the fault of men (women are just as likely to uphold patriarchial norms), but the fact of the matter is, our sick society is organized in such a way that men GENERALLY matter and women are GENERALLY marginalized. Note the all caps - I'm sure you can find counter examples of each, but I'm talking about broad, societal trends.

That's why we call it feminism. Because it is a movement diametrically opposed to those cultural institutions that marginalize femininity.

Here's a (paraphrased) quote that I love, that I think some of you all should take some time to digest:

"Feminism doesn't teach women to hate men. Feminism teaches women to stop prioritizing the feelings and needs of men over their own. It's men who seem to think that's hatred."

Blessings
~ND

I think you are assuming a lot of things about a lot of people. You may have met some third wave feminists that hate men and blame them for all their problems, but by lumping all third wave feminists in with them you're writing off millions of people with legitimate experiences and opinions. What if we judge all cops by those who kill unarmed blacks, or all Muslims by the .01% of Muslims worldwide involved in terrorist activities? Does that put it into perspective?



While it is true that both men and women are raped, men only make up 15% of rape victims according to the 2012 FBI crime report. It isn't a male vs. female issue, but females are statistically affected by rape 6x more than men making them the primary victim of sexual assault. You say that society as a whole needs to address it (which is true) but then proceed to write off the very people attempting to do just that by simplifying their message into something which is easy to attack but bares little relevance or resemblance to the actual goals and message of the feminist movement.

I think it's become very fashionable to bash feminists based on caricatures of them and their views rather than listening to what a group of people have to say about the struggles, harassment, humiliation, and violence that they face on a regular basis.

https://www.rainn.org/st.../victims-sexual-violence

Yes, that may be true. And i'm not saying that there is something morally wrong with that, that these women should be locked-up or something.

But the question is if this is realy a very healthy kind of behaviour, whether this is realy sane, whether these women are truly happy this way.
Again, i'm not saying that these women are immoral.

Are people realy so taken by this postmodern paradigm (everything is subjective, there is no truth) that they truly believe that it realy doesn't matter at all how you spend your life? That it's all equal?

Ok, well there was an invasion in Iraq by american and british troops and it went realy kind of wrong. People started to die. Then there was a porn-site paying american soldiers to send in footage of corpses and stuff. So imagine that you're a father and you have a son and one day he says: "dad, i've got to tell you something, i jerk-off watching pictures of slain childeren with their guts ripped out and spilled all over the place, severed limbs and all, and covered in blood". Are you gonna say: "whatever makes you happy son"?

Or you've got a daughter who says:"dad, what i realy yearn for is a man who defecates on my face, kicks me in the stomach, then calls me a stupid whore, ejaculates over me, kicks me in the stomach some more and then leaves me lying there while he's gonna watch football".
Are you gonna say:"oh, i'm so pleased that you've finally found your destiny in life"?

Is every way of living, every preference, equal to any other preference? I don't mean morally, but in terms of psychological health and happyness?

You know, most parents love their childeren and they will cuddle them, support them and give them attention. This is in the first place because it makes them feel good ofcourse. I mean the parents themselves.
But most parents will also do this when it doesn't make them feel good. When they come home after a tiring, tough day at the office. When they feel totally drained, empty, and they find their little six year old son or daughter at home, crying because he/she was bullied at school. They're not gonna say:"shut up, you stupid fuck, don't you see i'm tired".

But if every kind of relationship is equal to any other kind of relationship...why shouldn't they? After a while the child will get accustomed to this way of acting. The boy or girl won't know any better than that this is just the way a family works.
They won't feel that there's anything missing in their life. So why would such a man be a bad father then, if this is just another way of expressing feelings and it's all equal?

Maybe they will have difficulties later in life, showing affection. But well, there are affectionate relations and disaffectionate relations and one is just as good as the other, right? So there is no such thing as a bad parent, right? Because any kind of relationship is equal to any other, right?

Well, i don't buy any of that. No matter how postmodern, politically correct you are, everybody will draw a line somewhere, where they no longer can believe that a certain behavioural pattern is truly just as healty as any other.

As long as consent is involved, it is ok. People can be in affectionate, loving , healthy and fulfilling relationships even if they sometimes beat each other up (consentually) during sex.



Jeez Dragonrider what the hell kind of porn have you been watching????



I really don't understand what you are getting at here. Who has said that any kind of relationship is equal to another?

What i meant to say (and yes you're right, i could have turned my rhetoric's a notch down )is...I think that some people are more likely to become happy individuals than others, and all kinds of influence play a role there.
And i don't think that exposure to porn, or any kind of footage displaying the humiliation of women (or man, for that matter) is generally speaking positive a influence then.

It's not that i would want to have pornography banned, or that i think that masochists are morally aprehensable or something.

It's just that i can't help feeling sorry for some folks (like people in a submissive role) because i believe they're not exactly making the most our of their lives.