The necessity for this thread rose from a previous one, an account of one experience I had, titled ~HOME~, in the Philosophy/Spirituality/Science subforum. To go to the original thread click >here<.

However, after some responses, the scope of this thread has exceeded its boundaries, and a more important subject came into play. So I'm starting this one to properly facilitate this truly amazingly interesting conversation. It is in such places, with such conversers as us, that matters like these come to play.

Please read the original thread, only a page long, before proceeding further into the rabbit hole...

*************************************************


Thank you for your answers, friends. I really do think that DMT can facilitate a connection with a higher state of consciousness. Like someone else once said, it's like dressing ourselves in the mental furniture of our future..


@Saidin: Your signature rings a bell within me, dude, this is what I was walking about. Awesome, truly.

@DMTtripn2Space: I remember you, man. From This!

@wake and bacon, balaganist: Niiice vibes...


@burnt: No offence taken, man. How could I be offended by a fellow explorer expressing his views?


Allow me however to disagree with you, and seize this opportunity to bring this matter forward for all of us to discuss a little more. I'm sure we're going to have some wonderful conversations on subjects not encountered every day. Please keep in mind that although I use your response (and Morphane's) as a launching pad, this is a matter transcending you and me, and this is why I'm opening it up for elaboration in a new thread. Thank you for your response.

I'm afraid that although you express a respectable opinion about the attitude we should adopt when it comes to mind altering substances, you're missing something. Let me elaborate.




Whether the experiences we have under the influence of such substances have any validity in them or not, is not the basis of my disagreement. What I want to talk about is the attitude we should keep towards new ideas.

It seems to me that the only rule there is to this game, is that there is no idea too strange, no hypothesis too far fetched. Although extremely difficult, we should always keep an open mind when it comes to pioneering thoughts and theories. The only thing we should always recognize, is the sacred privilege of any idea to have a place upon the table of consideration, and to know that the universe is probably "stranger than we can suppose".

I mean, c'mon, mates, look over your shoulder: where has this way of thinking taken us so far? Isn't it obvious after all this time that we've done something wrong? Hasn't it become crystal clear yet that hard headed skepticism is a completely different thing than constructive criticism?

It's a great responsibility that has been bestowed upon us now. To keep our eyes open. To keep our minds open. To dismiss the dismisser within our consciousness. This is what this place is about, or at least so I hope. An opportunity for everyone to exchange strange, bizarre ideas!

Inevitably quoting again, we're headed towards a stone wall on a hundred miles per hour, and the only way to avoid being smashed against our own concrete paradigm is to think new, and think FAST.

How come you can so easily dismiss a new idea -which is only that; an idea- that someone had during a psychedelic voyage, but remain so attached to a world view that others had taught you, without you even having the necessary logic to process it yet?
How come you ask me what makes me think that the reality I perceive while under the influence of DMT is more real or closer to the truth than the reality I have evolved to survive in, while perhaps the only common ground of thought we share is that our current perception of the cosmos, the way we now function in our everyday lives, is not the way we should?
Isn't it obvious that the lack of new ideas, or rather our damned obsession to stick to ideas that we have grown with and dismiss everything else radically new, has brought this society to the bring of catastrophy?

This is why we can no longer call any idea crazy just because it seems so to our already established beliefs -Morphane-. This is why we can no longer talk about "the end" of things and concepts that we have not yet depleted, like the end of spiritualism -Burnt mate-. There is no validity left any more to the age-old motto that "a man has to have a code"... A HUMAN, now, has to have an open mind! NOT a castle of concrete beliefs around him!

I'm sure you'll agree with me, mates, when I say that now there must be a new way, a new approach, that NOW we know better:
Just next to our tried and trusted bullshit detectors that helped us so many times down this road, we now have to keep our newly acquired set of eyes: those of a child that looks the wonders of this world for the first time. And the riddle we must now solve is standing right in front of us and staring us to the face: to figure out how to balance these two forces, these two ways of thinking.

There is no honor left any more for the one who manages to convince himself that HIS world view, his paradigm is the correct one. These are the leftovers of a society long ago proven wrong.

YOU should now. WE should now. WE are the epitome of nature's technological advancement, folks. NOBODY else is going to flirt with such radical ideas, no one else is going to risk being called a romantic fool just to coin a new possibility of the way things are.
It is WE, the psychedelic community -and you know by now that I don't mean just the people using psychedelic compounds- that this era has called forth to make the next step. Think about it! Can you honestly feel all right relying to a bunch of hard headed fools trying to solve the mysteries of the universe by ignoring half of it to deliver you safely to the next evolutional plateau??

We don't now what's coming after the bent, mates. We live in a society that's trying to reach the stars by hurling metallic cans filled with fuel towards the Alpha Centauri. Metallic cans, for crying out loud.. Filled with fossil fuels! And little dudes in white suites! How can we expect to discover the secrets of the cosmos like this??? How can we ever expect to revel and cheer one day under our newly found truth, when as a society we can't even figure the way to reach the limits of our own solar system?

The way out is within, blades. It is the mind that transcends, not the body. Not the petty burnable substances that we furiously dig from our soil. Not the matter. And definitely not our stone hard logic! Call an idea intriguing instead of crazy! Call a new belief different instead of false! Call an altered state of consciousness new ground, instead of chemical chaos!! Call a psychedelic revelation "a credible possibility" , instead of "a meaningless mind game". For, after all, what the hell do we really know? Who said that bipedal mammals should be able to bear the meaning of the cosmos inside their brains? Let's humble ourselves and try to figure this out like we should:

With curiosity, respect, dignity and awesome, incredibly relieving cosmic humor! The cosmos is a joker, mates, and we have to borrow his lightness to be able to bear the truths that lie ahead of us. Lightness. Not stone solid all-knowing hard-headedness. These are traits of a generation that had it's turn and brought us that far. From now on it is we that must transcend to the next level. With a new attitude. With a new set of eyes..

And what better way to close than the words of a truly original joker? I couldn't have said it better.

"We were here before in the '60s... And when they came with machine guns we just melted into the woodwork, nobody was ready for that, so now there must be a new strategy by stealth, by worming from within, we're not dropping out here, we're infiltrating and taking over because it's our world and our children's world and we're not going to see it run over the edge by a bunch of constipated gentlemen -- that's not the plan."
~RIP TmK.





See you out there...
~Dug.




PS: As this is my first big post in this forum, let me excuse myself for being carried away as usual within an otherwise casual conversation. I've been invited (from Grasscity) to this community by a friend and a member of it -thanks Mr Mojo-, and I'm really thankful that such a group still exists. I can't even start to contemplate the great things I've discovered here from your writings, guys. Thank you. Really. No, really... Thanks.

Sorry I love discussing the whys whats and hows about what happens during psychedelic experiences.

I'll have to say I love new ideas new ideas are what makes us as a species progress. I think the psychedelic experience is not a meaningless mind game but in fact quite the opposite a very meaningful mind game.



Men in white suits are figuring out the secrets of the cosmos. It was people in white suits who first figured out the earth revolves around the sun and that the cosmos is filled with stars like ours in clusters of galaxies among which there are trillions of trillions. This is knowledge about our universe. Before we had that we had nothing but superstisious beliefs about our cosmos. Many of which still persist.

I guess to sum it up quickly what I mean is sure new ideas about any experience a human has is interesting but human beings have lots of weird experiences. To accept the ones we have while under the influence of drugs that we know are happening because of interactions with our CNS as always true might not be correct. Now it doesn't matter if they are correct as long as we learn something valuable and it can be used positively. The psychedelic experience can teach an individual so much about themselves and the world around them that is useful and valid and true. But there are lots of human experiences that are not nice and happen for similar reasons, schizophrenia for example. Psychedelic drugs can induce the same types of thinking as such diseases they can also torment the mind. Its nice to speculate about alien contact and a universe that transcends our everyday experience but in a way its a double edged sword knocking on the doors of madness and genius at the same time. I just think its important for people to be careful and don't get carried away too quickly.

are you guy joking? did you notice, that the technology of human beings is a little bit more complex?
look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
http://en.wikipedia.org/...er_Large_Hadron_Collider
http://en.wikipedia.org/...ry_Large_Hadron_Collider

'The total cost of the project is expected to be of the order of 4.6 billion Swiss francs (€3 billion) for the accelerator and 1.1 billion Swiss francs (€700 million) for the CERN contribution to the experiments.'

while people on earth are still starving from hunger.
isn't this the edge of madness?
isn't this the greatest cosmic joke ever?

may be...:

this technology will give the human beings in future the power to create wormholes, some sort of time machines and quanta-computing.

may be...:

the future civilization will send messages to people like you, dug, in 2009 (or any other time).
what would they tell them/us/you?
and how?

may be...:

'don't worry, guy! look! we know what is necessary to do. we did it! trust in us! help us to do the great work best you can! learn to do, what we do!'

may be...:

you and burnt, both are right!

may be...:

i/we didn't understand right, what THEY told me/us...

may be...:

you and burnt, both of you don't understand, what i wanna say...

may be...:

i am talking bullshit...

may be...:

everything is possible!

Dug
If I could find more people like you Id bring them ALL here! You gift for words is superior to mine I always enjoy your posts.
And like others I a happy to have you here. I will see you and all my other friends and family here as well as in hyperspace.

Take Care Brothers and Sisters

MV

Dug, the reason I come to this forum is to be inspired by posts such as you wrote. I was utterly fascinated with the idea you presented - an idea that is affirmed elsewhere.

It is these entities who I think are crazy, not your idea. I must also be one of these entities, and I quite frankly object to being thrown into this world like a dog without a bone. If I somehow chose this, I deserve to be smacked around the head, because now I'm here I do not want. I couldn't feel more disconnected from other humans.

Instead of gushing peace and love, I react to your idea from another perspective, that is all. I'm a bit like Thomas, insisting on investigating the wounds of Jesus. The other disciples get on my nerves.

Thank you! This was a very inspiring post.

You are talking about the evolution of the human species, the next step we are onto. And a marriage of the old and the new, of science and... religion? ... spirituality perhaps.

I think the purpose of burnt on this forum - if I may look at it in this impersonating, highly scientific way - is to "separate the wheat from the chaff". He is a guardian of the "old", who makes sure that the "new" is something that really can be matched with and integrated into (perhaps onto) the old. Without such people, we wouldn't be forced to rethink, reformulate our ideas again and again, until they find a form that can really work, a form that is real (in the sense that it's compatible with current reality, therefore not rejected by it).

The world has an inertia which we can use. Instead of throwing the whole thing out and starting everything anew, we can rely on it. Just imagine, when the billions of sheeps currently following the ideas of consumerism and egoistic capitalism, turn over 180 degrees and start to follow ideas of love and compassion. The same inertia which now seems like a burden, a reason for hopelessness, may become a positive force, a good thing when the governing ideas change to the better. And this doesn't require that the whole world becomes enlightened. No need to pour LSD into the water system. It's "just" the mind of the world (the mind of God?), that needs to be healed.

As of how, I don't know. I certainly hope that the meditation masters in the Himalayas didn't walk away into their caves to get lost in selfish self-indulgence. Perhaps there is a way to transform reality from inside. Perhaps the appearance of DMT is a sign. Perhaps the time is ripe and the keys will be given, some of us will be allowed to get into the control room. Or - even better - the control room may be already chock full of well-meaning beings, and there is no reason to worry.

It may also be that all of this is just the desires of an infantile mind, unable to grow up. And that we must take our cross, carry the burden and work through the muddle with our own hands, in physical reality. But even then, psychedelics may give us an inspiration, a vision and the energy to go on with it.

Or it may be as Alan Watts says in regard to Hindu ideas - that it is a drama. This time around it might be a tragedy. Maybe a swashbuckling interstellar hero comes to save the day? Maybe Popeye just has to get some spinach!

Either way, it's just a ride.

Great words Dug, and well articulated. It is all about new ideas and new paradigms. No one has the monopoly on the truth, and new insights pop up in the strangest places (Crick's discovery of DNA in a dream for a single example). Keeping and open mind is essential, insights and revalations await for those who are willing to listen.



I believe you choose to be here at this time. Not only did you choose, but it was a great privlidge afforded you to be choosen to be here on this planet at this time. That does not mean that feelings of being out of place and disconnected from all that seems to be real aren't significant and meaningful, they are, and are often a common experience coming from those who have awoken. Funnel those feelings into something constructive. Try to figure out why you came here. The answers are out there for anyone who seaches with an open heart and an open mind. Ask and ye shall recieve.

For me...I really, really want to go home, wherever that is. But I came here for a purpose, I signed a contract and I worked hard to be able to have the privlidged opporutnity to be here. Thankfully tomorrow will see the fruition of the main reason I came here, after that I will continue to help in any way I can, but if I am to be called home, that would be okay with me as well.

When answers lead only to more questions you know you are on the right path.



It is our collective consciousness of which you speak. It is our species mind of this planet that needs to be healed and cleansed. The Gaian mind consists of much more than just us humans on this planet, and the mind of god does not need to be healed in any way.

psychedelica have an unbelievable great potential to change the human mind and to speed up the evolutionary process of humanity.
imho.
they did it in the past and they do it still, perhaps more then ever.

for example the computer revolution:
we all know that the use of lsd "inspired" some "crazy acidheads", steve jobs, douglas engelbart, myron stolaroff and others, and their work at the Stanford university.
you don't know? didn't you read this book?
http://www.amazon.com/Wh...e-Personal/dp/0670033820
its very amazing:
because of the fact that this people in the late fifties, early sixteens used lsd, they got the inspiration for that what we call "personal computer" and only because of this process in the past we are able to communicate via personal computers nowadays.

and the free flow of information, the availability of different world-views, the possibility to analyze and compare this views will give a deeper understanding of sense and usefulness of any view in general.

this is just a fantastic speculation, this is "not true", someone who knows, or believes that he know what is true and what not, may tell me...

i don't care at all, what other people believe.
i care to live together with my brothers and sisters, and it gets somehow difficult to live together then other people believe that they have the right and wisdom to know what sort of world-view and live-style is the best (for me).
i am old and young enough, i am wise and stupid enough, i am mental sane and schizophrenic enough, i am constructive and destructive enough,

i am free enough to choose for myself what to do and what not.

THEY teach me.

First of all, Dug, you get my props for a fantastic post/thread. Not only full of interesting ideas and potential, but (importantly) it was an entertaining and pleasant read too. So keep up the good work. But now to the nitty-gritty...


You and a couple others make references to that feeling of absolutely KNOWING something while on a DMT trip. This rings a bell with me perfectly; I get exactly what you're saying. I've often had similar feelings in dreams before as well. However, I wonder whether this is merely the result of physiological changes in brain chemistry involved in the high. By which I mean, you feel the thought is an "epiphany" merely because that's what happened to be running through your mind at the moment your brain released an OD of the responsible neurotransmitter. My evidence in support of that interpretation is the fact that (especially in the dream examples) what at the time seemed like an incredible and important revelation, is later revealed to be utter nonsense. And if something COMPLETELY meaningless can seem so profound, then maybe that feeling isn't a good indicator of the value of new ideas. Personally, I hope not and I really don't think that's completely the case. To me, psychedelics force into taking a totally new and different perspective on reality, which would obviously be a good and logical place for mental invention. But still I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences with this feeling. (And as a side note, I think I may propose/brainstorm on a new word for this undeniable sensation of epiphany in the "Hyperspace Lexicon" forum.)


Secondly, I know that feeling of being surrounded by friends of family on light spice journeys. I remember a couple different times feeling like someone I knew was on the tip of my mind (like a word on the tip of your tongue). After a second I'd resolve the feeling and figure out who that person was and why I was thinking about them (eg. "oh it's be girlfriend, and I'm a little worried that she might disapprove of my tripping". I can recall once the feeling was intense enough that I was momentarily under the assumption that either someone else had actually smoked the spice (and I was observing the trip or something) or that someone was here doing it with me. To me these feeling seem like they could be the roots of the out-of-body/elf encounter experience that come with breakthroughs.




I have to say this statement comes off as self-contradicting to me. It says we shouldn't let ourselves become zombies to society's worldview, and that we should keep out minds open to all kinds of perceptions, experiences, and information. Yet it's dismissing of (scientific) observations. To me, at the very least, one espousing such beliefs should actually remain open to ALL ways of thinking, not just new/radical/unpopular ones. (Not to pick a fight or anything.)

And quickly one more thing. One of the above posters makes a point about how perhaps we shouldn't be spending money on expensive scientific research when people are starving all over the world. This is a really tough debate for me, especially because I personally have plenty of food and absolutely adore science. I try to justify it by saying that scientific research is what leads to advancements/technology that could feed more people and raise the quality of life for all human beings. After all, the sun won't burn forever, so if we don't develop sufficient technology in the next 4 billion years to escape to a livable environment we're pretty much screwed. Not to mention the fact that at the rate we're going at right now the Earth could be uninhabitable much, MUCH sooner than that.


Hehe, I know I have more to say on these topics but I'm already late for work so I'll have to check back later and see if I remember anything interesting.

Peace

At the risk of sounding crazy/conspiracy nut I will quietly mention that millions of people have seen things buzzing around the sky and space (including some astronauts) that would lead some to think that we either have or are exposed to technology that could probably be considered a material equal to the mental technologies that we are so fond of talking about on forums like this.

Either way, it's just a ride.



YEP!

Amazing responses, friends! It's truly fascinating having the opportunity to converse in such a manner with such extraordinary individuals!


Cellux , what you said is true. We do need each other. Every aspect of the human psychic is needed in order to progress further than this. We DO need our anchors, as we do need our sails.

Morphane, Burnt, thanks. I know you're gonna be the Catalysts to some great conversations we're going to have. With a capital C. Kudos! Morph, Venom, I think you're right, it's just a ride. An amazing one, I might add!

Saidin, I couldn't have put it better. Indeed, it is a clear indication of our progress that more and more riddles arise. After all, the bigger we build the bonfire of understanding, the more darkness is revealed to our startled eyes... Right?


Gosvami, I'm afraid I AM a joking guy, mate. Aren't we all? Dancing in the regular intervals dictated by our pulsating consciousness? We've got one foot blasting a kick at the door of the angelic realm, and the other burried within the mud. Now >there< is something to joke about. I know about the LHC, the Higg dude and the theories surrounding the possibilities that might arise from such an experiment. I'm not mocking the hard work that these geniuses have put in scientific progress. I'm mocking the obsession that this society has in ignoring everything else. But you know that. Stick around, mate, I'd love to get some further insight on your thoughts, there's something about your post that has the signature of the inexplicable on it...

Eloheim, thanks man, nice vide. I don't believe that we should banish science alltogether. We should just make more room for other prismatic views. And you're right, I've also had several experiences when I felt like I've finally discovered the secret of the cosmos, and after coming down I was dumbfound with these experiences' vagueness.
I'm aware though that this can be happening either because of the actual utter bullshitness of these ideas, or the fact that someone else has gotten in the way and filtered their meaning out.
When I tried to point a finger on this dude that could be doing such a thing, I realised that the part of my psychic that gets in the way and filters out anything outside its limits, is the same part that makes it so difficult to talk about these altered states. It's the same lady that makes it so difficult for our minds to realise anything other than this reality.
It's the only thing that has something at stake during these experiences. It's our logic. The one thousant granite layers of our hard raised guardian. Violently territorial, and highly intollerant. Everything that does not pass through our logic's filter, is bound to be cut out of the equation.
This is the great obstacle that we must now surpass.
The feeling of knowing that you mentioned has been felt by me in my dreams too. But the feeling of omniknowledge that you have inside the tryptamine space is a whoooole new level, my friend. We'll talk about this some more while we're in there one day, I'm sure! Keep in touch, friend!

MagikVenom, yes, Brother, see you out there, on the other side of this coin, on the planar dimention where the gnomes will teach us their newly aqcuired revelation on that great, new, way, to say HURRAY!!...





Forward is the only way to go, folks. Look at the posts above you and below you. We >are< a social group. And as long as we maintain our individuality, as long as every member of this group is allowed to express his oppinion, his ideas, without feeling endangered by the discrimination of the rest, then our intellect, our imagination, our extraordinary way of thinking, all these will be a coherent body, not just leaves on the wind. Only when every member of a whole is contibuting to it, this whole exceeds the sum of its parts!



...I'm going to sparkle up my lighter in a moment, over my self-proclaimed DMT bong.. I'll see you around, friends. Take care.


PS: Once again, fuck Occam and his razor. Excuse my french, it had to be said. Love.


~Dug

Yes sir that's exactly the debate I was trying to get at with my post (even if it didn't read that way). Like, "Was that amazing new way to view reality I just discovered in my spice trip merely a psychotic illusion, or was it SO novel/complex/advanced that my normal consciousness is completely overloaded by it?" Personally, I'd bet to some extent it IS the latter. Altered states of consciousness have our brains operating in ways not otherwise possible.

Excellent thread people, thanks Dug

Some important points raised!
I would like to add/reiterate:
For those of you who talk about science being important to help save the planet - yes I partly agree. HOWEVER - it is science and the materialistic worldview that got us into our current mess. So should we be relying solely on science to get us out of it??? Personally, as has been suggested already here, it is about a coming together of ideas and worldviews. That means those of us that are stuck in a purely material view of the world need to open up a bit to the notion that there is reality beyond the physical, and of course the anti-science spiritualists amongst us must also open up to the possibility of science helping to solve our current problems.

Burnt, as much I dont agree with some of what you say, I take your point that we cannot solve the worlds problems just be meditating.
HOWEVER: It is my opinion, that meditation, true spirituality, and communion with nature are forces that have the potential to change the people and cultures that have recently been fucking up our planet and our societies. It is my view that materialism, seeing the physical world as the only true reality is one of the major downfalls of modern humanity.

I have found, especially through recent ayahuasca journeys, that we already have the most amazing technologies to help us out: we are the technology, the plant and animal kingdoms, DNA .. these are the most advanced technologies we have. And we have some doors available that can show us and help us to use those technologies, and also show us and help us to go beyond their normal physical limitations. I very much feel that ayahuasca and dmt are powerful such doors. This is the feeling I get when journeying. That everything is possible.

[to be expanded....]

I see what you mean. I also agree that its not just science that will get us out of this mess. I think ethics and well just social interaction is probably more important then science in this regard. Science just gives us more technology to lessen our impact on environment etc. Also provides us with knowledge about what we have messed up (like global warming for example).

My only objection is that I don't (personally) need any view of reality that is beyond my physical materialistic world view to want to help people and our planet. Note that when I say materialistic I am not talking about driving fancy cars and buying name brand clothes. I don't think science created that kind of materialistic view that's cultural. So I guess I don't see a problem with viewing the world as a material place in a material universe to want to care about the environment and people. For me personally my material view makes me want to care about my life and the life of those around me (including other non human organisms) even more because life is so precious and fragile.



How sciences material view be viewed as a downfall? Think about the major world religions and oppressive governments. World religions and their divine outlook have devastated entire populations and they give humanity the feeling that they are better and more special then all other life in existence. As far as oppression of one group over another science has shown that we are the same there is no difference between black and white asian and hispanic etc etc. We are all the same. All life also is from the same tree and it is connected in some way ecologically and thus deserves respect and understanding. All this comes from a material world view not a religious world view.

Now I understand that your spiritual world view is much different then the major world religions (at least I think so..). I see it as a more positive force then those religions.
But if its not true and relies on superstitious beliefs then no I don't see it as adding anything except another way to dupe people into believing for some other cultural or political gain.

Its like a way of tricking people who don't understand complicated scientific concepts like evolution and ecology into caring about the environment. "Here drink this jungle potion and you will see the gods of the universe who will guilt you into respecting nature". I don't want ayahuasca to ever be used in that commanding fashion. I see it as a possibility and in some cultures it is used that way. Although it is still a positive force in those cultures sometimes its built on a lie. Like the santo domia (can't spell it UDV church in brazil), they say ayahuasca is a tool to talk to their christian god which I don't think exists. Sure it cures alcoholism and solves social problems but its just like alcoholics anonymous which cures alcoholism through lies. "You are powerless to control your life submit to god and you can be free from this disease". I don't like lieing to solve problems.



I agree that these drugs can help us open the doors within our minds. They can allow people to feel empathy for the first time. They can expand our knowledge. But I also think they can delude us and in some cultures I think they have deluded their people.

I don't think one view should mean the rejection of another way of looking.
I don't know about our society. We're all just people, bound to make mistakes and to speak in a limited vocabulary.

On the one hand i see in our society, the opposite of what you say; an obsession with the immaterial, in such a way that it has the risk in it of turning into a disdain for this world we live in. There is the risk of it becoming only an empty shell and nothing more then pure disrespect and even loathing for all that's living in this, material dimension.
You often see that in people who claim to be highly spiritual, intellectual or ideological.

On the other hand there is a stubborn lack of opennes to all that we still don't know. An attitude of not recognizing all that is spiritual, intellectual or moral.
A consent, or general agreement, that all that belongs to the realm of the mind, is fictional, not real.

I have no answer.
I try to indulge in mental, intellectual and spiritual acrobacy every now and then. Believing that true understanding is not something you can capture, standing still, but that becomes you. Hanging somewhere in the air. Between here and there.

I'm totally with you about modern religions (in general) - however, I believe that all religions stem from an origin of Truth, or at least strongly perceived truth. I believe that most religions, at their root, have some great teachings. Its modern society and its dogmatic interpretation of religion that is the problem IMO.
To me that root is Truth Seeking. And some truths just have to be experienced. They cannot be written or recorded. They just are. The writings and recordings then become like pointers.. but they can easily get skewed if not renewed by criticism and experiential knowledge.



Thats what I mean by seeking truth... and being open to experiencing truth through different belief systems. There are many paths to the same destination.
For me.. for instance, I admire shamans who are able to traverse the outer realms of conciousness as much as I admire the scientists who make possible exploration of outer space or quantum mechanics.




I dont know if it is used in that way.. maybe it is by some i dont know.. but in my experience what it shows you is LOVE, and sure it may trigger guilt in some people, but that would be their reaction, if thats what they need in order to connect with nature, so be it.




Fair enough man, if thats what you think... I dont know, I have only read about these cultures, tho I'm soon to go on an aya retreat so I can see how things are for myself. Yes you can see the rituals as a kind of mythology, but in my view, it is a developed skill and spiritual/organic technology.

Recently, I have opened myself to the idea that different plant species share a conciousness; and that when we commune with them via ingesting or smoking, we bring them in to join our conciousness for bit. And that, as much as us getting intoxicated by their conciousness, the plant's conciounsess is also experiencing us. And that the plants can learn form us as much as we can learn from them.
Sounds fucking loony when I type it out like that! But thats how I've begun to see this game.. that there are helpers around to help us play this earth game we find ourselves in, and to help us see what we really are.

:arrow:

This brings up some good discussion points. I have a problem with many teachings in old religions just as much as modern ones. More so in old ones where virgins hearts were ripped out for sacrafices, people were enslaved to their god rulers, one group eliminating another group, stratification of society into classes based on birth. All these ideas are terrible. Now ideas of love are great but if the other half of the teachings involve ripping peoples hearts out I don't see how the love part makes up for all that. Plus is all this brotherly love stuff more of an evolutionary instinctual connection between people then a religious belief? I think its more of a cultural idea that worked better then ripping peoples hearts out hence why it persists and most cultures don't rip peoples hearts out anymore.

The root of religion was not truth seeking as much as attempting to explain things we didn't know about. Before scientific thought and experiment there was no way to test if ideas were correct or closer to the truth at least up to a point (some things are obvious without science). I think the goal was to seek the truth but with no mechanism to verify that truth many turned out to be wrong and are still turning out to be wrong. Ideas I mean.



The loving and connection feeling is very positive outcome of these substances and experiences. I think its all around positive. I just don't like the cultural baggage that often goes with it that may or may not be positive. For example there are many tribal cultures where women are not treated as equals etc we can think of many examples. So why not take the real parts of these experiences and stop promoting all the other stuff that goes with it?

Don't get me wrong I think ritual and all that is important for these substances proper usage in some cases what I mean that should be abandoned is the non truthful aspects of these experiences. For example I don't think you are really communicating with dead ancestors (of course we really don't know no one knows with that). I think its not always a positive thing to trick people into thinking that they are instead of accepting death for example. I also don't think its right to tell people to reject certain forms of western medicine and only use traditional medicine for religious reasons. This is a more clear cut example of cultural baggage being negative. I can go on a bit about this but later.



I think the ritual is important. There are very real reasons why shamans play music and burn nice insences and sing. Its to promote a good atmosphere for healing. That's positive. But demanding that people always do it a certain way even if it doesn't work for them is not positive. For example when I went with a shaman he made me snuff tobacco which was horrible for me it made me far far sicker then the ayahuasca alone. That's just a small example.

Also understand I think most shamans are trying to do good in the world but I also think there unwillingness to work with westerners to improve their healing and our healing is kind of close minded. Although some are more willing to share knowledge.



Plants produce compounds for evolutionary reasons. These compounds happen to interact with our nervous system. That's all that's happening. So yes it does sound loony. The plants have value the experiences have value but that doesn't mean spirits are there helping you along. That kind of thinking is the kind of thinking I am warning leads down the path of delusion.