^^Well I don't really know what you are even asking. Can you be a bit more clear?

The motivation of this discussion isn't to change the world but to hear peoples perspectives and ideas about spirituality. My motivation is to challenge the notion of spirituality.

You're not giving the chance that someone with influence or high on a power structure will come across this website and use it to learn a skill that will change the way they view their options to manipulate their (and maybe our) everyday lives. Its limiting to assume any social gathering is impotent and without potential to cause a chain reaction. Its not like this is a Hello Kitty forum.

About how this discussion get's a little rough sometimes: actually quantum mechanics is so complex that very little people really understand it completely. You need to have a lot of knowledge about the subject to realy know what's going on.
The interested layman realy know nothing. I consider myself an interested layman and i have to accept that i eventually know nothing in this field. I can talk about it a little bit, but i wouldn't be able to speculate for instance on the mass of the supposed higg's boson.
I think we have to accept that when you're not able to calculate the most likely probable mass of such an undetected particle, or something similar, you have to admit that your knowledge in this field is fairly limited after all.
We can understand some of it, but we're amateurs.

There are many proffesional scientists who do look at their research as a sort of spiritual quest b.t.w. Probably not in the same way as the new-age guru's, but that's another chapter. they're not a thread to science.

you didnt comment on my post, did you? I would like to know what you have to say

Yea I really don't know much of anything about QM in detail. That's why I didn't just make up all of what I said most, I was pretty much directly paraphrasing stuff I had been reading that was in my opinion well analyzed and thought out. I also like to heckle physicist friends about what their input is.

But to your second point I agree that there are lots of scientists who look at their work as in a way some spiritual quest but I think a great many of them are not religious or spiritual in the sense that most people think.

However I do view new age gurus and scientists who say that religion and science are saying the same thing as a very dangerous threat to science especially in the U.S. Science education has gone way down and scientific literacy is pretty much been thrown out the window in the US. When I think about the root causes of these issues and when I discuss science with people who I consider scientifically illiterate it becomes painfully clear that the confusion brought up about issues like science and religion, evolution, new age and traditional medicine versus western medicine, paranoia about vaccines, global warming hysteria and denial is very real and very dangerous not only to the individuals whose brains have turned into mush but to the rest of society as well. If everyone stops taking vaccines polio and small pox will come back. If no one believes or understands global warming nothing will be done or even worse something will be done that doesn't solve the problem and gives up our freedom to let the government take over the whole issue . If no one understands evolution they can't understand why antibiotics stop working after bacteria become resistant along with a host of other important issues.

Furthermore the less interested people are in science and the less they trust science the less funding there will be and the less people will get involved in becoming scientists. I see the anti science attitude everywhere not just among by peers but in young people and in popular culture and the media. Its a very real situation.

That's also why I am motivated to discuss spiritual issues and myths with people who use psychedelics because I see the same attitude being promoted by users of psychedelic drugs. People buying into all kinds of weird crap and using drugs (that have real value to science!) to justify their absurd beleifs. Not only does it make psychedelic drug users seem scientifically illiterate but it also lessens the likely hood that these drugs will be taken seriously not only be the medical establishment but also with regard to recreational and personal use.



Sorry I think I missed it in the onslaught of posts in this thread. Do you know what page it was on?


Also fiashly I hope I wasn't too harsh in my replies I really think we were just misunderstanding each other and a lot of blame can go on me as I was often glossing things over. Anyway here are some papers that confirm what I was saying isn't complete nonsense. If you don't have access I can try and post pdf which I have.

Concerning faster then light issues:

http://www.springerlink....ontent/g7w8441j75831k4x/

Wave particle duality:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/phy.../papers/0302/0302062.pdf

Both are rather detailed but there is useful in them.

Anyway I hope you are not totally turned off to this discussion because I would still like to get back into the neurology stuff and hear more of your opinions.

my post is number 50 in page 3

Burnt...

"Unless god is some wacko trickster who is just playing games with us"

thats quite possibly the wisest postulation you have uttered yet...

theres a reason why they said coyote was in league with the creator...

I view it as kind of an excuse to say well god doesn't seem to be around much anymore so lets assume hes just playing games with us for giggles.

Why would a god or gods who were so active in the past (when humans didn't know that much about the world notice) and now all of a sudden that we do know a lot more about the world and how it works how it got here how life evolved that all of a sudden those gods or god ran away to hide and play games? Yet he supposedly still answers prayers and if you worship him or her or it then you still get to go to heaven. Is it really just to test our faith? Or lets say other gods from more animistic religions where did they go? How come they don't cure disease? Are those plants really magical or is it just the chemicals in them effecting our minds and bodies? We have science to back up these kinds of explanations now we don't need the demons and spirits hiding with them to understand how they work. Its all chemistry.

Whats more is being a trickster any god or gods would have human like qualities. Why even suspect that a god or gods in their supreme power would have any human like qualities of jelousy or humor.


The coyote does not resemble any sort of creator. The coyote is here for the same reasons all life on earth is. It evolved here.



Endless:

I reread your post. When I say spirit I mean something beyond the material world. By material I mean all kinds of matter and energy even ones we haven't discovered. That is the myth I am arguing against.

The spirituality you are talking about is moral. I agree largely with many of those morals living a balanced like is nice respecting nature is important. But those ideas to me are not based in any spiritual world view. For some people they are but they need not be.

Science can't dictate morals or say whats right or wrong. Neither can religion (because I don't think religion has any truth to it).

Morals are a set of socially evolving ideas. For example in the past people wanted to conquer nature because nature was dangerous. Now we have conquered nature in a way thats dangerous to our survival as a species. So now we are evolving morals to care about nature again. People are looking to traditional or past views on nature and also looking for scientific reasons to respect nature. But its all an evolution of ideas that help us survive and prosper.

The same goes for living a balanced life style. People are stressed and stress is unhealthy and it kills. So people are looking for ways to balance out there lives to get rid of that. Many people look to the past to find ways of doing that. Thats where spiritual text does come in handy its good advice. But thats all it is, its advice. It may have a supernatural explanation and thats bogus but the advice still is valid.


So the spiritualism you are talking about is different then the one I am talking about. I think you are talking about morals and living a healthy happy life. I am talking about ideas and beliefs that are I think are false. Unfortunately I think the two often heavily over lap. For example someone gets into mediation to balance out there life. Thats good its healthy for them. It works. They also grab onto all the other irrational beliefs that come with it like reincarnation or whatever (even though on some level we are all recycled). With that comes an anti scientific attitude that is crippling our society and world with war death and misery through religion and absurd beliefs based on nothing really except human ideas that may have worked at one time for whatever reason but I think now ideas that need to be tossed aside.

Hey burnt.. fair points you have

one note first, I am not talking about morals, because morals, as you said, are changing ideas. What in europe is considered good, in china is taboo, and so on. I dont care about this type of morals, Im talking more about something that maybe one could name as 'Ethics', some deep respect and look for balance that is independent of culture and time. In fact many of the people considered 'moral' are very unethical.

I agree with you that there is a lot of irrationality about spirituality, but my point was that this isnt the only spirituality out there, and that science can only talk about a limited cross section of reality (which is true and important, of course). When I talk about spirit, I talk about something that is, in a way, beyond science, in the sense that its an underlying unity and harmony behind all the manifestations that the lenses of science can 'perceive'.

So take, for example, our body. You can look at how there are all these individual cells, each doing their own thing. But even though one cannot see when looking at one individually, they are all working for a unity. Now think of cancer cells, they are still a part of the body, but its as if they 'forgot' about it, and now start spreading and growing and reproducing unharmoniously, threatening the very unity they are a part of. I feel its the same way with human beings, that we, as seemingly separate entities, are all a part of some sort of potential greater unity, except we 'forgot' about it and also threaten our whole species. Spirituality for me is the realization that we need to struggle to achieve this unity/health/balance, not only in ourselves, but with our species, and extending with all species and with whole universe (or as much of it as we can relate to/perceive). This is not to say that you must think the same way as me, burnt, as I believe someone can try to be 'good' to the world without such attitude, but Im showing you it can be also a reasonable view of life and the world without having to be a blind belief.

Like colors, when we add.. Yellow+blue is not yellow/blue, its green.. All of our cells and processes put together form a unique color, an essence, so to say. But where does the individual self ends and the exterior begin? We have all sorts of very important bacteria and other life forms living inside of us and coming in and out all the time. Then we have all sorts of exchanges of energy and materials with the world. In the end, if you keep expanding, you see that everything is united.

God, the way I see it, is a definition of the unity of All, the Endless Endlessness. The way I see it, it doesnt make favors to those who pray, it doesnt have a beard and wont punish you for having masturbated when you were 14. I understand why people are angry and try to argument against this type of god, but first of all I dont think one necessarily has to think of god this way, and also I think that the people 'blinded' by belief in this type of god wont change their mind because their belief isnt rational to begin with, so how could you reason someone out of it? Freud already mentioned hundred years ago about how a lot of the traditional belief in god is actually a projection of the father figure and so on.. This is all true. But there is also different ways of interpreting the word God, which dont lead to, or require a belief, but rather an attitude, as I mentioned

Another factor to notice is that saying that science can explain All is just as much a belief as anything else. All we know is that science can predict and talk with certain accuracy about certain things, but it has its inherent limitations (godel in maths and planck and so on in physics). Not to mention all the things science is limited and simply cannot talk about, which were already named in this thread, such as 'how to live a healthy, conscious life in harmony with others'

Lastly, you say religion doesnt have any truth to it. Did you ever read religious writtings? When I read some buddhist words or even parts of the bible, its very very obvious to me that there is a LOT of truth in it, truth about relationships, truth about human flaws and human potentials, truth about all sorts of things. Of course it isnt a literal truth in all parts, but it was never meant to be. Most of these genuine religious writtings were made in allegorical and symbolic languages, made for a certain context. Not to mention of course a LOT of it got mistranslated or even edited for selfish purpouses of those in power. But still, one can get beauty and things of importance from religions, if he so wishes.

BTW, science also creates a lot of misery and suffering, you know this im sure. The point is not that religion or science cause this suffering, but rather that people with no conscience use both for selfish purpouses without caring about damage done to other people or other life forms. In this sense I would say a revitalization of a real spirituality (not the fake beliefs one, but the spirituality as a harmony-and-health-seeking, consciousness-and-inner-potentials'-developing attitude) is extremely necessary and important for the well being of us and of our planet.

Spot on. Its not about finding some niche in science where the spirit somehow fits in and is allowed to exist for our comfort, it's about reawakening a place (some people like to call it a spirit) within all of us that knows what is right, that can glimpse the potential of humans, the source of thought that all of us are united by in that every single person has it, and we can all access it. It is a fountain of creative, imaginative potential that, when not hampered by our everyday thoughts and distractions and ego, will always be a guiding light that intuitively has good 'ethics'.

Well said endlessness!

Forgive me if its already been asked, I didnt read the whole thread but,
can someone define the word real?

I see what you mean what I said can be applied to ethics as well.



What I don't get is why is spirituality beyond science? What underlying unity and harmony? There is lots of disunity and disharmony in the universe. But there is also unity and harmony but lots of this is just words that humans constructed to describe things. But I guess I am a bit confused about why spirituality is beyond science.



Well cancer is the result of genetic mutations and mis-haps that cause the divide switch in a cell to turn back on or turn off the breaks on the divide switch but I see what you mean. I do think we need to strike a balance in the world. I guess I don't see it so much as a spiritual issue but more of a survival issue. I mean some people will survive despite global warming or other issues like famine disease etc. But when I say survival I say for the most amount of people we can sustain living their lives happily by whatever means they like. I think we need to grow beyond this planet but to do that we need to slow down our consumption and change some of our attitudes. But there is nothing spiritual to me personally about that its practical.



Again I don't see symbiotic relationships as spiritual. I guess I come at it from a biological/evolutionary approach. Life evolved this way life works this way. Its just the way it is. It wasn't designed that way.



I see what you mean but again we are taking one definition of god and overlapping it with another. Maybe we need a new word for god?



Well yea there are some limits. But I don't think thats a problem. We can still figure things out despite uncertainty. Lots of things. We haven't even come close to reaching our limits.

But I do think science has advise to give on how to live healthy and sustainably. For sure. There are whole fields of science dedicated to these things. But my point about science and ethics is that its not up to objective raw analysis to say "you do this because it makes you happy". But it can say "most people who do this are happy".



Agree there are truths and I've read lots of things from religious folks that were good social and moral advice. But its also important to realize is that many of those ideas are much older then some of the religions that claim to have invented them. I don't know too much about that subject but I think its been thoroughly investigated.



I see what you mean. My only objective is with the word spiritual itself because again to me it implies that something exists beyond the material multiuniverse whatev. It implies that there is some force guiding us or that designed life. Basically the word creates confusion and carries baggage much like the word god. Maybe we need a new word?

But yea for me I can reach the same conclusions purely from a practical point of view. I want to be happy and free I want others to be happy and free. Science tells us we are over consuming or messing up our planet which will make people less happy and free. So the practical solution is to find practical solutions. No magic or spirits behind the curtains needed for me.



We share the same evolutionary history. We are not one in all senses of the word one. We are separate. Yes we are all capable of experiencing are raw awareness. That is something we all share. Its something we can all experience with the right tools or spontaneously. But all it is is our raw awareness. That raw awareness experience is so stress relieving and emotionally moving that it has inspired thousands of people to write extensivily about it. To devote lifes to understanding and experiencing it.

But really all it is, is our cleaned blank slate raw awareness. Which is purely explainable as a product of our brain function. Its cool we have tools to set the reset and purge mind button.



Yes this is something that drives me insane as someone involved in science. I am all for doing work for corporations or companies because it has practical uses. But the problem is when scientists are bought to get a specific result. That's against my ethics for science. Scientists should just get results not results someone else wants to be a certain way for whatever reason.

Also the media and politican spin on things is confusing and corrupting peoples minds like woah. Its not good. That's in a way why I try to promote science and show the good side and how it really works. Because really the people doing all this kind of confusing are a minority. There are definitely conservative groups that I have investigated a bit that do publish fake science in fake journals and then politicians cite those articles as if its real science. Its terrible.

I guess this is why I want people to understand science and critical thinking so they can fight against this kind of stuff and realize when they are being duped.



Yes I do agree that science is not in a position to make ethical judgements. Thats up to us personally to do. I do think we have some instincts but also cultural influences that we use to decide right and wrong. We also have empathy etc to go on. Science can just objectivily analyze our behavior.

But the thing about spirituality is yes it does concern ethical issues. But what are its ethics based on?



Ok so I think on that lets try and discuss what about spirituality gives us good ethics or positive morals.

Its beyond science because, as mentioned before, science has its limitations. What can science talk about love? It maybe can talk about adrenaline levels, about dilated pupils, but can it really talk about the 'essence' of what love is? but does it mean that love doesnt exist then? No, it just means its out of the scope of science. It would be very disempowering to talk about love as chemical x + hormone y + activity in such and such areas of the brain (even if this is refined by future technology and more minute classifications). Its just not enough, and doesnt correspond to the most important aspect of love, which is FEELING it, experiencing it with all of one's self. As I mentioned before, science can talk about the 'backbone' of reality, but it doesnt have monopoly over all of Truth, all of Knowledge and all of what is important in existence. There is a lot of nuances that cannot be defined, and its not about 'few more years and better equipment'.

This is not an offensive undervaluing claim about science, it just says that different methods of knowledge have their own reach and range of action. Doctors dont fix airplanes, but this doenst mean that doctors think that its useless to fix airplanes, they just accept its not their thing, its out of their scope.




For me its not a solely survival issue because I am not only thinking about myself, my family and neither even only my own species. If it was about solely about survival, then why would one care about endangered turtles or whatever other example? One wouldnt, unless there was a direct benefit that these turtles would provide for humans... But the 'balanced and harmonious' attitude is beyond personal or species necessities, its a broader outlook on life, giving a deep value to every life form and to every aspect of existence. I think it would be sad if one would only look at the world judging value of things only by what direct benefit they can provide for us or not (and im sure you are not like this)



Im not talking about whether life was designed or not, Im using an analogy to show that the totality is bigger than the sum of the parts, and that we are all connected. But im not asking you to believe me or follow what Im saying, im just expressing my own outlook on the whole subject. If you want to suppose the universe is a random dead machine, by all means go ahead, as long as you are healthy, not throwing garbage on the streets and so on,



yeah definitely a lot of the discussions in the end are semantics.. I also do realize how the word god is already infused with so much that its hard to not think of the usual brainwashed vision of this word when reading/hearing it. Its just that, from what I read so far, I honestly feel a lot of the major religions were not intended to take god in the way the common religious person does, but more in this 'open' way, trying to take god as an underlying unity that allows people to have more respect for others (and others opinion) and other life forms too.




Sure, I dont think its a problem that science has its limits either. Everything has its limits. I love science, specially physics. I have a few books from hawkings, kip thorne, michio kaku and so on. I also definitely realize there is a lot to learn, and im anxious to find out about new things to come. But using trillions of euros in new telescopes or particle accelerators wont solve our relationship problems, the blindness of patriotism, wars, waste and selfishness. All of this, IMO, can only be solved through individual efforts and inner development, through education that facilitates unfolding of innate potentials, all of which in my view (a lot of people may not share) is a big part of what spirituality is.

Thats why I say that, sure science is great, but there is a lot more that it wont be talking about which we should be talking about. Or even if it does talk about, it will only talk about in a crude detached classificatory manner, which isnt really what solves those utterly important problems.



Its not exactly science that talks about living healthy and sustainably... Science is a method, but you are right that a lot of applications of science may be very useful for sustainability and there are many people who's lives and works are dedicated to this (just like there are a lot of people dedicated to destructive scientific endeavours)




you are right that a lot of ideas were older than some of the religions... but this doesnt mean that (considering they existed historically), jesus and buddha, for example, copied their ideas from someone else and thus what they said has no value.. They synthesized a lot of important thoughts, some of which they learned, some of which they came by themselves or reinterpreted in their own vision. Like fibonnaci or pythagoras who are thought to have 'discovered' theorems and so on, which some indian mathematicians already knew, but they were still very important in putting this knowledge into a specific system and passed it along




well maybe it was designed, maybe it wasnt... its all suppositions anyways.. I take a more pragmatic stance a-la william james, and think: if so, then what? What are the consequences to our ideas and thoughts? Only in measuring the practical consequences, can we make any kind of judgement or talk about validity.

Its clear to me that both in the 'science group' and in the 'spiritual' group there are assholes, people that destroy the earth, people that are bad to others. In fact, its clear to me that we cannot define people in these two groups. So instead I take what is of value of the different sides and try to improve myself and try to achieve this harmony and health which notice is possible.

This is again when I say spirituality is beyond science, because spirituality is also about achieving an autonomy, both ethical/emotional and cognitive.. One can know all the books of science by head and be the highest rated scientist alive. Yet, this person may have no autonomy at all, be always working only to get aproval of others or running away from punishment, be only repeating what is heard, never thinking outside the box, being bad in relationship.. Being spiritual is all these things for me also.. Being aware, self-aware, autonomous, free inside. We may have words for this, but in practice its beyond rationality, beyond scopes of science. How can we measure 'inner freedom' ? And yet its maybe our most important problem...




I am glad you are happy with your ideas.. I also understand why you may go against a lot of pseudo-science new age claims and pseudo-spirituality.. I hope, though, that together with this I also at least partly gave you the impression that at least in some ways of interpreting what spirituality is, its not a blind brainwashing idea, doesnt require belief and is not negative to earth or others, in fact it can be very positive.

It's ethics are based on pure love, our highest potential, which is what 'inner-freedom', as endlessness worded it, gives us a hope and desire for. Like we've been saying, it is beyond the scope of science, science cannot provide the words and data to teach someone to love, that comes from within.

I believe that we all know in our hearts what is right, that's why looking within, to the 'raw consciousness' (be it magical or purely a product of the brain, that is not important), connects us with our true selves, you become more... YOU! A happier YOU with all your best qualities!!! that is the goal of true spirituality.

Based on your guys definitions of spirituality I agree its beyond science. For me the type of spirituality that is not beyond science is things like astrology or different kinds of healing. These things can be tested etc. You all for the most part are talking about a kind of spiritual ethics which yes the roots are not scientific but intuitive and emotional.

But can I ask if you all had to give a word for your lifestyle and outlook or a phrase what would you use? Take some time to think about it.

Concerning why to care about turtles. Well even without direct reason just upsetting ecosystems is good enough reason to want to prefer species espicially predators like turtles who eat jelly fish or whatev there are a million examples.

But the other reason is purely empathy. I think other animals feel pain and think and feel things. In a different way and to different degrees but they still have minds. Therefore I can feel empathy for them. Its why I don't like senseless slaughter of any kind really. Except mosquioto's they can piss off.

Anyway I think you all have a great outlook

yeah burnt, its nice arguing with people who have different outlooks, when they are well reasoned and backed up.. too bad we dont have more of this in normal life . Its nice arguing with you because I learn a lot about my own views also.. You know, sometimes when Im in the middle of too 'new agy' people, I take a stance similar to yours and try to show them the faults in their reasoning. We gotta always have critical thinking, whatever is the object of our attention, and seems a lot of people miss this. Then when im in the middle of too rational people sometimes I take the opposite stance haha

as for the word about the lifestyle and all.. Its hard, Ive been thinking a lot about it because in the case I once get to really start a different educational system as I would like, I want it to have an adequate name... but its hard to find one that isnt already corrupted. I thought something about 'Integral', but not so sure.. If I do come up with something Ill let you know


and yes, its VERY hard to practice patience and love for other life forms when it comes to mosquitoes hahaha


btw burnt, as for astrology.. are you aware of any investigation with scientific orientation people have done with this?

I'll try to dig up some studies done on astrology. I know there have been some.

Anyway since I think we have all clarified what we mean when we talk about spirituality and or god. I think my main goal of this thread was to debunk a type of spirituality that is based on supernatural beliefs. As I said before I think supernatural phenomenon all have a naturalistic explanation whether or not we will ever figure out what it is.

What do you guys think about the concept of a soul or an afterlife? I find them difficult to reconcile with a naturalistic world view. I think this is the most difficult issue for people. People pray to god and worship mainly because they want to go to heaven when they die. Its one of the strongest motivators for supernatural beliefs is death. Understandably. Is there any naturalistic explanation for such ideas or are they really just supernatural hopes?

About a possible afterlife:

I think I got to the point where it doesn't matter anymore (whether there is an afterlife or there isn't). When faith is guided/inspired by a wish for the afterlife, man easily becomes occluded. It's much better to find God in the present moment, then all worries about the afterlife automatically go away.

About the soul:

I don't know what that is. Just the theories, in abundance.

We are all souls with a physical body. Not the other way round