I was not raised in a christian household, my dad says "im a catholic" but has zero religious views, and i dont think hed be seen dead in a church nowdays... well, unless he was actually dead. ive been inside churches with grandparents a few times but i can count them all on 1 hand. i say this:

the big guy up in the fluffy clouds who loves you but will kill his son because you forgot to kiss his feet and pay your taxes is a wonderful fiction story and i think that's why they get so many people that young: because its theatrical in nature. growing up with people from both sides of the fence i found the people who would not do risky things because 'god wont approve' ended up being less moral as they grew out of it in high school (i went all the way through primary and high school in the same town with a few core group of people).

Rather, teach your kids how to 'belong' to something rather than belonging to SOMEONE (god). being part of a group, or club or identifying with a particular mentality or rational belief is important. you will find that people with strong moral fiber belong to groups that have a code of honor, and not some arbitrary set of rules you have to follow. example: sporting teams, you have to respect your mates and other players, you don't want to let the captain/coach down - but rules are kept to a minimum outside of acceptable ways to play the game.
Id like to elaborate more but i wouldn't do it justice, and there is a great youtube video on exactly this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvrapNC15o

as far as your dad, id sit down with him and have a good long discussion about it, have him know that you wont teach them that 'christianity is bad/wrong' but you wont be teaching it to them either. if he asks why not and expresses his dissapointment, ask him this: "how would you have liked someone wanting you to teach your children about allah?"

That's arguably, because our culture is christian based....

@jamie
Easier said than done if the fundamentalist is a family member. Of course he can believe what he wants, i don't mind. Its more that said person feels appaled by my views and that in return makes him influence other family members views and/or puts constant pressure on them to change me.

Is it really? Seems like many of the teachings match up with teachings from older religions like Buddhims, Hinduism ect, and even from just older philosophers and cultural values in general. Not really any new ideas in the Bible, though many ideas shared with older scriptures and cultures.

Why not just let them figure it out for themselves, and help answer questions as they arise. I grew up in the south, in a republican family, and one of the great justices my parents did me was just that. They gave me way too much space in some areas, but here the chance for my own exploration was very beneficial to me and allowed me to develop my own spiritual reality.

I asked my folks to take me to church one easter , in second grade,after hearing all the kids get excited about this stuff. I expected something much different than what i got, which was tight clothes, hard seats and a lot of droning by a guy in a funny dress. It didn't reflect what for me even then i felt in my heart sitting by the creek in the woods in the afternoons.

I don't know man, honestly there is little i can empathize with in your story, but i don't know how important some of the things that church people think really are in personal development. I kind of doubt even your kid will grasp too much of you throw all this stuff at him like some have suggested, Scientology? Why?

Its about you, your family and keeping those traditions, and your child's development. I really don't see how a child would be able to make sense out of a rigid dogma in one place and then being told otherwise in the home. But that's me, i don't have kids, been to church once, didn't like it, became a psychedelic kabalistic bathtub alchemist, so what do i know?

DisEmboDied you should read and watch interviews with Joseph Campbell as a great starting place. Campbell goes into the mythos behind religion and really figures out what is important and what is not about the stories. I have never been a fan of organized religion. Far too easy to brainwash people into believing and sometimes doing just about anything. By learning about the common stories that many major religions share it is easier to understand the larger picture and not get caught up in the dogma and bullshit of specific religions. There is also a good book entitled Myths, heroes, gods and saviors that is also very good at pointing out the common stories of world religions. Good luck to you, your kids and your dad.

just sit em down with some popcorn and put this lil flick on..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OsYCFOaCbg

I recently found this link to many hours of free lectures from Joseph Campbell in case anyone is interested.
http://www.openculture.c...ectures-free-online.html

I dunno.... seems like giving your kids a whole bunch of different apples to try eating, and then asking them which one was the tastiest orange.

I like that. Can I use it?

My uninformed misguided opinion?
Don't let them brainwash your kids.
There is a reason why they do it when the kids are still smaller.
I was 12 when i declared myself agnostic, 15 when i ultimatly broke with the ritual of going to church.
But like Religion, its also important to not let the fascist coorporations brainfuck your children.
The unrelentless materialism and ego driven nature of modern society is much more dangerous.
An open and selfreflective mind is all it takes to see through the illusion.
Don't give them easy answers, give 'em hard questions.

All religion is based on the fear of death.

This documentary explains -Flight From Death:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/173530

Well, so I finally tried to sit down with my Dad and talk about my beliefs. I told him that I don't have a problem believing in a God, but that I do not believe that an all wise and loving God who made me and who loves me would throw me into a burning Hell for Eternity because I didn't have a chance to repent before I got hit by a bus…and he said that that's what it says in the bible. I can't tell him that the bible is not necessarily the all and end all because that is what he believes, he is 65 now and doesn't look like he is going to budge. He also said that he saw on Youtube some videos of people who went to hell and came back, Buddhists saw other Buddhists in there because they were not saved and were Buddhists. I can't prove that that is not true, but after going to that in our discussion, I just gave up in disgust. We also talked about how one can die and go to hell for one slip up, but Jeff Dahmer found Jesus right before he died and went to heaven. Man, talk about old school no budging. I wanted to open up a conversation with him, to start an infinite philosophical debate, trying to no longer feel being judged for not bringing my kids to church and setting them on fire with the holy ghost the Pat Robertson way. Oh well, hmmmm…I guess I will just have to let it all go and avoid anything to do with the whole thing, find many other subjects to fill the quiet moments.

I really disagree with the charge that all religion is based on the fear of death. Many people IMO follow religious ideas due to insecurities and tend to sort of emotionally fall apart at the idea that there is real unknowns in the world, but I do not believe that this is the driving force behind all world religion. I have read enough old texts feel something else far more relevant is behind many religions.

Just love your kids as much as you can, give advise to all the bad times and how to handle them. I would leave religion out of it and let them make up there own minds on what to believe, its up to you. But give advise and be there for them.

For your dad, Its true what tatt said, if he doesn't respect your opinion.. oh well. But they are your children. Do what you think is right for them not what your father says. You have more exp with your kids than pappi does.

Sincerely,

dls

Well if you do ever want to approach the subject of religion again with your father, you can use the Bible, there are many points Christians miss in there that hold a wider spiritual significance than what is typically focused on. I approach my Christian family by speaking their language, the language of the Bible, yet keeping to what I believe in.

My favorite passage is Luke 17:21 "Nor shall they say here it is, or there it is, for the kingdom of Heaven is within you."

Since we can perceive heavenly realms through the DMT verse, this rings quite strong with me.

Nice, I shouldn't say ignore your dad but speak his language.. I like that quote Psychelectric!

I agree with this. IMHO religion is based on the fear of life.


For this reason, it is practically useless to try to debate religious believers on rational grounds. Most forms of religious behaviour cannot be understood until seen as belonging to the realm of psychiatric disease. One cannot argue with a person having a psychotic breakdown either.

I like psychelectric's approach of throwing their book back at religious zealots, but even that works only in a few cases and even then goes only so far. I find it useless to reverse convert believers by means of argument, but I make one exception - when religiots try to tell me "what god thinks" of me and my actions: I will lash back and tell them that if "god" disagrees with me so much, surely "god" will let me know about it him/her/itself or even take corrective action (besides, why would "god" let it happen in the first place?). Well, that is obviously not happening. Instead, the religiot is speaking on behalf of "god" which is no less than total blasphemy on their behalf, to think that they can put themselves at the position of "god". They are in fact doing much worse than I am: it is not just a case of pot - kettle, it is in fact splinter and beam.

I don't think I have ever converted a religiot with these rhetorics, but it does shut them up pretty effectively. I think it actually quite accurately addresses what these people are really doing with their religion. In fact it is even worse, "god" is ultimately their own sockpuppet, a complete reversal of what is outwardly pretended.

Maybe some people will find my use of the word "religiots" offensive, but I can say that this is simply my religion, my idiocy. At least I'm not condemning others to an eternity in hell, they're just wasting one life in hell. Which I honestly pity them for, as long as they're not pestering me with it too much.

Another term that I have seen used and that sounds a little more forgiving, would be the word "relicapped". It fits in better with the psychiatric perspective.

Disembodied, I realize that the above rant doesn't help you deal with your father. But I do want to say that I find his behavior towards you and your children incredibly rude and offensive. He does not respect you and your children as fundamentally equal persons. He has no right to do that, however much it may be explainable from a psychiatric perspective, ie. resulting from a mental disease condition.

I wish your family the best.

When a parent sees his child going toward a cliff abyss then he(she) will powerfully pull drag slam push (whatever it takes) the child away from the danger zone in a kind of panic mode.

The child (not aware of the danger) only sees the parent executing personal harm and questioning why the parent do such mad unfair behavior.

It is quite possible the cliff abyss was only in the mind of the parent.
Problem! Then there was only good intentions from the parent's point of view.

Is the "mistake" from the parent something that can be hold against him(her)?
Is mental/psychological shortcoming something very personal, or part of the human condition as a whole?

I see a very unfortunate situation.

Probably we all have shortcomings somehow that lead us to actions, actions who when seen in a very wide overview like stupid, naive, counter productive etc. We're all a bit "parent" in a way, chained by limitations.

The question arises how much of the actions are addressable to limitations (and therefore forgive-able), or are plain bad intentions. Difficult matter.

I believe nobody wants to be deliberately the bad guy, while doing so. Maybe I'm mistaking, but for now I seek understanding the situation in such a frame.

Well just to clarify, I'm not for "throwing the book at the religious" this seems to imply that I would use their Bible against them to win an argument, which believe me I have done before. But the ultimate goal is to facilitate open avenues of communication, an argument won't do this, I've come to feel that the drive to argue is just an ego game, it feels good to win an argument but does nothing for the other side. In the case of a religious argument, both parties may feel that they win, but then with their aggression they burn down bridges of communication. The goal is a discussion, if you need to agree to disagree on some things, so be it. But arguing is a waste, I've done my fair share of it, but I'd like to find better opportunities to communicate and keep those avenues open. I'm not a fan of zealots, and I know my fair share, but in the case of the Bible, "judge not least ye be judged" is important to remember, in any context. We all have strong opinions on spirituality, we should also find ways to keep communication open.

To parallel my quote from earlier I'd like to share a Bad Religion quote from the song You "there is a place where everyone can be right, even though they remain determined to be opposed."