Just to make things clear, I'm not trying to trivialise your experience in the slightest. Everyone's experience is individual and I respect that.

Some people suffer with depression for literally a lifetime with onset as early as infancy until the very end. It's difficult/impossible to train yourself to come to a state of mind you were never environmentally accustomed to in the first place. Some people are not even lucky enough to realise they are depressed and will end up self medicating with something or other subconsciously, usually whatever is closest to hand or most effective. Politics and profits aside, the healthcare industry although not always attentive as it should be DOES have the tools and knowledge to help these people. In these severe circumstances referring someone to conventional healthcare is the most responsible thing someone can do in my opinion.

Healthcare professionals worth their salt will not just aimlessly prescribe meds. They will assign one to one sessions, group therapy, lifestyle alteration advice. If the meds prescribed are having negative side effects, the adjoining literature contains warnings of what to do in these situations and the doctor/therapist should monitor this closely also.

Living in the UK I have met Americans who emigrated over here and are extremely frustrated with how GP's in the UK are very apprehensive to prescribe medications that were much easier to gt from their native consultants. I mean we do hand out antibiotics like sweets, but we are less likely to dispense sleep aids and anti-depressants, whether it be because the NHS would have to pay for them or because they don't deem it necessary, I'm not sure. I can say for sure though that for more general depressive/anxiety related disorders they are more likely to prescribe group CBT first and foremost and even discuss dietary intake.

I guess what I'm saying is you can't blame the medication if it is prescribed correctly and with all other correct measures.

I am aware of how pharma companies are more interesting in getting a more up to date patent than making an effective product, but I also believe this does not render all of their work to be destructive.

I suppose I both agree and disagree to an extent, bu I'd rather pick the whole picture apart than screw it up and throw it in the bin.

Of course one can be motivated by negative circumstances and if you only have mild, temporary depressive episodes, it might push you to do things. But like soulfood said, in cases of clinical depression, you do not have any motivation to do things. You think you should be able to want things, but all you can do is lie in your bed and stare at the wall with nothing but emptiness inside. It just sucks away your life and does nothing good but atrophy your hippocampus.

Stepping out of your comfort zone is of course, necessary for growth. But if you simply can't move, you can't do that.

I think medication should be given away heavily and freely: From classical to new anti-depressants, upper, downer, opiates - whatever it takes. The patient should be able to test what works for him.

Yes, even true from a market perspective. You are certainly 2000-3000€ worth per month, keeping you depressed isn't good for the state, since you won't pay taxes. The costs for free drugs are back in the state's pocket in no time, if they work for you.

That's the reason I don't buy the big pharma argument:



The bupropion I mentioned before doesn't get you higher than a Red Bull and costs the same per dose (where I'm from).

Are you joking, or are you actually serious? In my mind there is so much wrong with your statement, it's quite shocking, although I know shouldn't be shocked.

I'm really not trying to be rude, so please forgive me if I come across that way!!! But, If you are actually serious, this is such an incredibly naive, and extremely destructive and dangerous way to address the situation. Do you realize how mentally, emotionally, and physically destructive these ''medications'' are? Among other research, I suggest you do some research into opiate addiction and the utterly destructive outcome of a 20 year legal opiate addiction, and how easy it is to get pulled into the addiction cycle. Look at methadone....My God, that drug is so horrendous, yet they give it away like candy. I have seen first hand what it can do to people. There is so much evidence, so many documentaries, so many destructive stories, that I'm not going to post any here, but request that you look into it a bit more. Peoples lives have been ruined through your line of thinking. So many people have died because of over medication. Research the dramatic increase in autism.

You line of thinking is a defeatist mentality. You are admitting defeat. These drugs are no solution. Generally, The drugs make things worse, or at best allow the person to remain in the same state.

I do understand that there is a special time and place for medication, but there are soooooooooo many better ways to address the situation.

The body and mind were made so that they are constantly healing. All you have to do is give it what it needs. And what it doesn't need is prescription drugs....UNTIL the drugs have been introduced; then when the drugs are attempted to be taken away, all hell breaks loose.

I do realize that some people start off this life with more of a disadvantage, but in my mind it is wrong to just throw medication at nearly all of them. (Please note I am generalizing greatly) The effects of doing this on a large scale are becoming entirely clear. That coupled with all the synthetic cehmicals being created, the pollution, etc. The human genome is degrading, and some of the causes are the medications....So what happens when mommy has been eating mcdonalds, using chemical housecleaner, popping pills for 10 years because here doctor said that's what she needed, and her newborn baby is born with genetic defects? Well, they give the baby drugs, because in the doctors mind they have a legitimate excuse....Well, that baby grows up, needing more and more medications. One medication to stop certain symptoms, but that medication causes other symptoms, so they give the person more medication, which causes more symptoms, which they need to cover up with more medication...There are actually people that are taking 12+ medications, for absolutely no legitimate reason. Do you really think they live a fulfilling life? Do you really think it HAD to be that way?

All sorts of strange diseases and cancers are becoming increasingly prevalent. Humanity, but especially Americans have lost touch with reality, and throwing more pills at the situation will only continue to make this vicious cycle much worse. Eating healthy, learning how to think healthy/clearly, learning how to control emotions and desires, learning how to truly love and help one another and all the other life forms, will help dig us out of the pit that we are collectively making. Just wait, if things keep up the way they are, in a few generations it will be too late for most lineages....

Now there are a few scenarios where I could see admitting defeat and prescribing medication would be necessary...Let's say a single parent was delusional, suffering from violent outbursts, suicidal etc. I could understand how some anti-psychotic medication might be useful temporarily, but only so that the parent could keep going without doing harm to his/her children. But even then, the way to cure diseases is not through medication. Medication in the modern sense offers no cure. I know there are other scenarios where medication is actually necessary, temporarily or even longer term, i just feel that currently nearly all of the time its prescribed, its the wrong thing to do...but we humans hate working hard now, or dealing with difficult situations...It's just so much easier to admit defeat and have our all knowing doctors (most of which have unsubstantial training in nutrition and health) prescribe us pills

Look into the various cultures that use food as medicine, and medicine as food. They are some of the most healthy people around, because they have learned how to work with the earth, not against it.



^^^ You make a lot of valid points. I think we are probably more in agreement than disagreement. We could spend days picking the whole picture apart, but I doubt that would be too helpful, since you obviously have a very good grasp of what's going on. But I did have to respond to obliguhl's comments.

Nah, I don't think that the FDA or any other agency approves medication that degenerates the human genome...

Think again. The FDA is either clueless, or complicit. The evidence tends toward complicit. After all, There is a revolving door between Big Pharma and government. If you think the government and the corporations really care about you, and what's best for you, you are in for a huge shock.

Look into the emerging field of Epigenetics. You might begin to comprehend a bit more about what I'm talking about......about how environmental pollutions greatly affects us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

Epigenetics - From wikipedia. ''In genetics, epigenetics is the study of cellular and physiological trait variations that are not caused by changes in the DNA sequence; in layman's terms, epigenetics is essentially the study of external or environmental factors that turn genes on and off and affect how cells read genes''

''The term also refers to the changes themselves: functionally relevant changes to the genome that do not involve a change in the nucleotide sequence.''

I'm not going to spoon feed you all the information. If you really care about yourself, do the research...Enough information is available for those who want to know.

I'm not making this stuff up, although ''degrading'' might not have been the best choice for wording. ''Altering the genome'', might be a more fitting term.

So you make a claim but then can't back it up? Interesting.


Source?

Even though you sound like a conspiracy theorist, here are some studies for the folks, who don't believe in claims without evidence. However the picture is inconclusive, I haven't found a study that really proves genotoxicity of antidepressants in humans. An Egyptian study with a sample size of 10 isn't really convincing.

http://www.researchgate....ics_and_antidepressants
http://www.academia.edu/...ALINE_AND_CLOMIPRAMINE_
http://www.nature.com/bj...86/n1/abs/6600013a.html

So please, show me your evidence for pathological alteration of the human genome by antidepressants.

No hits with these search strings:

https://scholar.google.c...+genome+antidepressants
https://scholar.google.c...oxicity+antidepressants
https://scholar.google.c...lar?q=human+genome+ssri
https://scholar.google.c...lar?q=genotoxicity+ssri
https://scholar.google.c...cholar?q=mutagenic+ssri

Some hits with these search strings, yet inconclusive:

https://www.google.com/s...oxicity+antidepressants
https://www.google.com/s...utagenic+antidepressants

This is an excellent post; pretty much mirroring my thoughts on the matter.

I can see both sides to this...

I see it every day in the acupuncture clinic & herbal pharmacy that I manage...

We're striving to help people be free here at our clinic; free of pharmaceuticals & free of the assumptions that the culture force-feeds us from birth...

free to make choices for themselves...

That includes the rather dubious choice of taking pharmaceuticals...

From my perspective, one really can't take Darwinism out of the equation...

If someone really feels the need to take pharmaceuticals, who am I to tell them not to?

They have the power & ability to question the whole pharma-business themselves; the power & ability to research the pharmaceuticals themselves; the option of just saying, "thanks doc" (at the MD's office) & not filling the prescription.

I understand & know wholeheartedly what you're getting at here Synkromystic & I totally agree. I've dedicated my entire adult life to wholistic, indigenous, plant-based healing & have seen firsthand how health issues of all kinds can be resolved if one is willing to commit & do the work.

On the othe hand, I have to say, having the freedom to take whatever substance one wishes to is a very powerful freedom that we still, as of yet, have not experienced as a species due to the power-mongering, controlling classes of people that have been around since the dawn of agriculture. From this perspective I can see obliguh's point.

Peace.

Doc, I completely agree with you. I'm not saying that there should be bans on these substances. People are completely free to do what they want. Who I am to judge what people should do? But, I do overwhelming feel, and the evidence is stacked in favor of my views, that going down the path of big pharma will only lead to physical, mental, and emotional problems, some of which will become irreversible when too much damage is done.

People are free to ruin their lives, and their children's.....But as they say, all actions cause reactions. We all have to live with the choices we made and the choices that were forced upon us by our parents (to a certain extent).

So I feel that people are free to be as unhealthy and destructive as they like. But, I have decided that I do not want to participate in that system, and thankfully we have alternatives because so many people feel the same as I do. I would like to help people learn to become more healthy, so that is why I spend so much time refuting the views that the majority of pharmaceuticals are safe!!!

Seriously...lol. You can't look into it yourself? Do I really have do the work for you? Hundreds of hours of research for you, that I have already done. Do I have to Think for you as well? I have given more than enough information in my posts, should you desire to research it thoroughly for yourself. I am not here to spoon feed, nor do I have the time to do it for you. Learn how to be your own doctor, learn how to be your own teacher. Do it yourself. Take control of your life.



The previous link I posted from wikipedia about epigenetics, describes exactly what it is. If you can't make connections, that's too bad. Often times we put too much emphasis on ''studies''. I do wholeheartedly agree that studies can be very useful, but often times they are very misleading...being able to bend and warp information to fit their initial hypothesis. This is why we have so many ''studies'' and published papers that blatantly contradict each other. With the epigenetic - drug link, the connections are too easy to make because enough research has already been done into both of them separately. It only takes the ability to make connections.

The field of epigenetics is just emerging, thus there are not many studies, nor does the Pharmecutical infested FDA care to contradict the industry. The wonderful caring pharmaceutical companies get to create, and sponsor much of their own research. Do you really think they are going to tell you the truth?(This is as far as i'm going to get into the wide area of evidence supporting the FACT that much of the scientific community and FDA are promoting false narratives on behalf of the pharma industry) It doesn't take a genius to put the pieces together once you have looked at enough facets of the situation.

Epigenetics relates to how environmental factors alter the genome. ''Drugs'' are a form of environmental factors. I have seen what many pharmaceuticals do to people, and there is so much documented evidence it's overwhelming...If you can't spend the time thoroughly looking into it, or don't want to see it for yourself, that is your problem, not mine....And if you really think vicodin, xanax, cymbalta, etc will make you healthier......keep drinking the kool aid. Sorry to be so confrontational, but it's so clear, so easy to see the destruction taking place, yet so many people suffer from cognitive dissonance and will never see it.

But this thread has been entirely hijacked by this discussion, so maybe you should start a new thread if you want to keep this going...

No, but they still have a life. Major depression has a mortality rate of 15%. It is a life threatening illness and disease. In my eyes, that warrants drastic measures. Of course, if you are just "a little depressed" and there is still some potential to fix the problem with environmental changes - it should be encouraged of course.

Afterall, the efficacy of most antidepressants isn't much higher than a general therapeutic effect in many cases. But any drug that keeps you from killing yourself, is a good drug.

You have a lot of idealism, but some people are just DESTROYED. To me it is pretty weird that old people aren't given opiates for their pain because of "addiction". You have to see what's at stake here and that is dying a slow, painful death. The same is true for major depression.

Yes, i am serious. Drastic measures have to be taken once idealism can't be afforded by the sufferer anymore.

Depression is an illusion of the mind, accumulation of shadow upon soul.
Illuminate all shadows with Love.
Happiness is the truth.

Nice words Aeternus, true for some I am sure but not for all. Some types arent remedied by any philosophical stance or pharmaceuticals however part of this I think may be to do with the reluctancy of some Doctors to try different treatment and in these cases the Doctor could be said to be 'treatment resistant'!
Recently my friend who is chronically depressed (unipolar) was told by his Dr changing meds may make it worse, well it isn't getting better for him.
I have had success lifting my moderate, periodical depression and anxiety with piracetam, a B6 complex and small amounts of MJ. I think there is much beneficial information to be discovered about the glutamatergic system.

I have dealt with depression my whole life, it wasn't until I started drinking caapi brew on a bi-weekly basis that it finally went' away and stayed away, and I continue to drink caapi once every 2 weeks, extracts work as well as brew if you can't stand the taste. miracle plant imho. The Santo Daime and UDV also drink caapi twice a month, now I see why, it works and puts you in tune with something higher than yourself.

I have struggled With depression for many of years since i was i kid i find Micro dosing
Harmala smoked with weed ive have taken tons of of pharmaceutical antidepressants lucky my parents believe in alternative medicines and now I barely have any depression like all of us we have good days and bad days but I have plans one thing even know you have a bad day try to turn that energy into a positive because energy is energy use it to its full potential.



♡God bless you all that struggle with depression you are not alone♡
♡Anyone who is struggling with it you have many friends here family♡

While I like what you're saying, I have to disagree partially. There are various kinds of depression. Some of them are purely chemical - your brain is simply unable to produce serotonin. If that is the case, no amount of happy or love thoughts will be able to help you, simply because your brain cannot respond to them by actually making you happy.
My humble opinion is to get a few tests done and check if it's a hormonal issue or a psychological one before proceeding with ANY kind of treatment.

Actually pretty scary to think some antidepressants is actually like super strong fluoride
We know fluoride is poison if you're having a bad day are feeling down depressed whatever you call it try to turn that negative energy into a thriving positive energy it works its me meditation many other natural psychoactive if your case is more severe we look after are Nexus friends here.

I could not agree with you more Synkro!!!

It is why I've dedicated my entire adult life to helping people with their health issues by guiding them towards all the wonderful, old-fashioned, time-tested hebal medicines that are available.

I will not participate in the modern medical system either & haven't for 32 years.

I've pulled myself out of horrendous depression without pharmaceuticals, not to mention hundreds of different diseases, sicknesses & health issues that would send most people running for the M.D. or hospital.

Nowadays, I tend to go the TCM route due to the fact that it is very keen on preventing disease before it begins.

Like the old Chinese medicine saying goes, "taking medicine only when you're sick is like digging a well when you're thirsty". And they're not talking about pharmaceuticals.



All I can say is- Amen to that brother!!!

Update;

I've been on the road backpacking Europe so I can't really read all the blown up derailed talk on antidepressants..but..

Over the last 2 months I have only smoked marijuana about 4 times, a great decrease from 3/4 times per day, and it has helped tremendously. I have also been reading a book about Buddhism and science of positive psychology, it has been helping immensely. I feel less depressed than ever, and feel like I have made my way into a normal operating state and am on my way to a positive and flourishing mental headspace once again.

Lots of love to all of you and your help!