I actually agree with Watts. What he is saying is that, just by declaring all is one doesn't make everything all right. He is absolutely correct about that. No amount of intellectualizing about this will make it so. As long as their is an ego at play that believe there are things happening to it then things will certainly never be harmonious. Harmony can't exist until that is transcended...

BTW jamie I love Watts. Nevermind that he died an alcoholic as his words ring true through and through to me. But alas I don't believe Allan was able to transcend what he spoke of.

Great thread topic, people!!!

I have been contemplating entering into this heady discussion for several weeks now. Sunday I had the a rare day off from work, as I have two jobs, and decided to embark upon a journey with some wonderful Changa, lovingly created by my dear brother, Metanoia. It is NN-DMT & harmalas on 15x Salvia extract. This medicine always shatters my notion of self and my sense of solidity and finite place within this material paradigm. Admittedly, the visions and sensations occur inside of this clearly individuated self but the ensuing voyage removes any differentiation from one ego/self to another, as I have come to feel that there is but the one true Omniself, which is enigmatically dancing throughout all of this cosmic play of creation, active expression and eventual dissolution.

First, I enjoyed an hour or so in deep meditation. The sunshine was glorious and I melted into a peaceful state of mind, calm and serene. The alluring and often terrifying call of the Sacred Medicine tugs at my exploratory side... I slowly inhaled the smoke and then almost instantaneously, crossed from the structure of the known and knowable... into the translucent void of the unknown and unknowable. Drawn further within by the ringing tone of the Carrier Wave/ AUM vibration, my focused attention shifted dramatically from who I believe myself to be and who I am, in quintessential terms. Who am I? I may never know. And we're I to know, would I even be the same I as I was before? As wise Socrates quipped, "My knowledge comes from an unknowing." Gnosis often leads one deeper into mystery, further and further down the rabbit hole.

Yet paradoxically, there was still an immanence of awareness. One having a spiraling, vortexial fulcrum of pure existential consciousness. Of being fully present and lucidly conscious of being wholly integrated/interlocked within resplendent pulsations of a divine light. Stardust made cognizant, awakened and introspective, through the evolution of it's own volition. Directly knowing, without pertaining to any form or substance, that the effulgence radiating from the epicenter of an emptiness and a stillness so powerful, it can never be pin-pointed by any description formed by human reason. It may be the essence of free will itself? From this side of the looking glass, it is what I believe God is, while from the other side of the looking glass, it is the non-thing seated within everything else existent.

Both polarities seem to be contradictorily true, yin & yang united in a seamless, symbiotic harmony of energy and inertia. I/you/we all are That. In this pause between quantifying and reflecting, there is only one of us, ever. All strings arise from the one point and despite how much they travel and expand, they remain united and unbroken at the epicenter and never truly lose the dynamic interconnection from the birth of the present now and the breadth of eternity. Then... comes the whiteout experience... ergo, stillness abounds sacredly, infinitely and most resplendently.

The distinction betwixt subject and object is dissolved into the shimmering emptiness of unification and there is nothing that can be said of such a state of being... except that it is sheer bliss. I honestly cannot say who or what recognizes this nectarine euphoria but it hums along blissfully, centering itself within the deepest core of the persona and inner self in which I routinely reside inside of. At least, it sure seems so upon the return from the peak experience. That's exactly where mind re-enters the equation and labels this and that, subjectively. Obviously, I was unable to volley conceptions with you fine folks, since words were beyond reach for most of that day and following evening.

Today, I am quite compelled to dabble in human linguistics and just how this interrelates to the notion of illusion and free will, I will try my best to translate from my tiny viewpoint to yours. In the effort and participation of such verbal exchanges, there is often much to be shared and gained, in a positive manner. Now, I wholly believe in the notion of free will. Granted, this belief sprouts from a great number of causalities and it may well be true that no freedom of will actually exists, just as no actual self exists... and sure, admittedly, this is how it appears from time to time. Still, I choose to be. I will myself to be and in this existence, I am witness to the duality of truth and non-truth, reality and illusion (if you will pardon the term). Mayhaps it's better to use the allegory of dreaming, in regards to some juxtaposition between reality and illusion?


From each dream sequence we awaken into another dreamscape, of sorts, yet, despite the rise of such ideas, there remains the point of attention whereby we SEE through new eyes. A freedom in awareness awakens, revealing how the dream of oneself is but a passing fancy had by the universe itself. We find a new perceptual lens and look through this other kind of sight, at new vistas and alternate realms of reality. Our own uniquely isolated lens of perception, if augmented and attuned with honed intent, leads straight to a focus and clarity of insight, which fully allows for the mind and heart to blooms exponentially and in so doing, choices are presented to the witness of said, blooming. Choices requiring a freedom of will and total responsibility for opening our own eyes to the truth.

This is where the effort of sadhana is born, free will exploding spontaneously into an intentional resolve towards awakening. It's what Sakyamuni the Buddha spoke of as, "right effort". This is echoed in his mindful words, "Mind is everything. What you think, you become." This is nearly identical to the Biblical parallel, from Proverbs 23:7, "For as he thinketh, in his heart, so is he."

The aforementioned sage/philosopher, Alan Watts, echoes this idea with his clever assertion, "It's like trying not to try." I so loved his radio show, it was a definite highlight of my youth. They used to play it on one of the Boston stations back in the 1970s and this drew me towards his many wonderful books. This Is It is by far, my favorite one he eloquently penned, the same year I was born. I still have my 1973 paperback copy by Vintage Books, all these years later... and what along strange trip it's been...


Whether we like or dislike any terms used by others to quantify their perceptions of this or that, it's always best to be dispassionate and equanimous. And yes, many in the western world, as well as in the eastern world, fall into labeling things so fixedly that they get lost in the game of exchanging their own philosophies and counterpoints, bantering back and forth in a volley of seemingly contesting semantics. Your statements remind me of something Swami Vivekananda wrote about Vedantic thought, at the very beginning of the 20th century.


Well said and finely spoken by the foremost English-speaking exponent of Vedantic learning of his day. This quote is just as relevant in our 21st century as it was then and is in no way remotely a "New Age" spin on the Vedas. I believe that while some of the cliches used by the contemporary neo-advaitins are most redundant and tiresome, on some level or another, their message is still quite true. I prefer the traditional Vedantic spin... but I must allow for more fanciful takes on reality and illusion, since everyone has a fundamental right toward self expression. Is not lasting harmony born of forbearance and humility, eh?


Ouch... now that sure smarts! Recently, you sure seem utilize allegories of violent confrontation to convey your stance about the dichotomous nature of earthly "reality" versus earthly "illusion". Are they not really two sides of one coin? The One is also the many. We are wholly interconnected with one another. This we all share in common, despite some differences in our delivery.

I think it's abundantly clear to all of us Nexian seekers that while we may encounter states where material reality disappears and what lies inside/beneath/beyond the distinction or form and substance, upon any and all planes of consciousness, is the only true reality discovered when the veil is lifted... we also, still materially exist as physical mortals, isolated egos and separate selves, who can feel pleasure or hurt, enjoy peace or anguish in terror. Generalizing too much or pointing barbed innuendos towards other contrasting views never solves any differences in perspective. I feel that it only perpetuates further misunderstandings. We get more bees with honey than with vinegar, right?

I am reminded of a metaphysical debate I had with a Catholic priest in 1969. My mother had converted to Christian Science and we were raised within this faith. My best friend mowed the lawn and did light janitorial work for the local Catholic church (himself being a member) and I accompanied him on several of his work shifts, so as to hurry up the job and get on to what was really important, riding our bikes on the trails behind the church. Just weeks prior, I had experienced a NDE and OBE from nearly drowning in our swimming pool. Suddenly and overwhelmingly, a whole other side to life revealed itself to me and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my material shell was just a part of who I was.

I could leave this material plane and move about on other, higher frequencies and levels of existential being, for I had been shown that I was a spark, a reflection of the universal source, who just so happened to inhabit a mortal body, for the time being and was formed concretely within the parameters of the time-space-continuum for a wee, passing duration only. I was not merely a mortal body that might or might not, possess a soul which existed on another level than the physical one. I was also quite palpably aware of being wholly immortal in nature. We are all of us, both transitory and transcendental, mortal and immortal, human and spiritual. This reality too, is heavenly.

Long story short, my buddy had mentioned to the head priest, that I was a Christian Scientist. He took the opportunity to launch a war of attrition against an eleven year old boy, aiming at proving his point and adamantly so, at that. After jousting about our perspectives on religion, life, metaphysics and spiritual healing... his face gotten redder and still redder. I smiled confidently and began to spin a web of my own resolute convictions and he wanted no part in my vision of God or the interconnection we have with this living spiritual presence, the I Am Principle as it blossoms freely of it's own accord.

I felt then and still do, that God was everything and that nothing existent was not essentially Sacred, although appearing in some kind of seeming disguise to each individual witness to their own subjective impressions. So, perhaps this is the only true illusion entertained by our human kind, homo sapien erectus? By gosh and by golly, this whole dance takes place within the Unified Field, holographically projected from universal mind and co-existing on multiples of planes of existential being, simultaneously. For myself, this line of thought leads me to surmise that all is Divine in quintessential nature and despite any appearances, is Godself emerging and departing, endlessly so, ad infinitum.

When I was reaching the crescendo of my epiphany, he grimaced menacingly and began to scare the proverbial shit out of me. He suddenly and with great force, kicked me as hard as he could in the ass! The impact actually broke my coccyx bone. He snarled, "I bet you felt THAT, didn't you!" I replied, "Of course I felt it, I'm living inside of this body. But that doesn't mean that's all I am. I am more that just flesh and bones, we all are." Being stubborn and very willful, I wasn't about to show much it hurt, so I just smiled and pretended it was nothing. The sheer irony, that a "Man of God" would be so nasty and cruel to a boy of 11 years.

Now, I had never implied I did not feel pleasure or pain because I believed I was not just the body, mind or emotional person, I was also spirit. Obviously my butt hurt more than I could say wihtout having screamed. His shiny black leather shoes had these pointed toes. And it took nearly 6 months to heal and no, I didn't go to a doctor for treatment, in a typical Christian Science mechanism, embarked mindfully upon healing my injury through prayer, belief and repeated affirmation. This is just as much an exercise of free will, as it is an act of faith. Attention directed by sheer intent, effects the structure and very nature of reality as we manifest it.

Why not express the same logic by using parables about human tenderness, friendship, love or in some appropriate circumstances, sexual passion? Love is the buzz, after all. Sigh... I've tread the path of martial arts for too many decades to believe that violence is useful, save in extreme conditions of darkness and where engaging in it MUST always have a valid humanitarian purpose and pertains to a moral reason, therein. As warrior spirit and a code of honor sometimes demands, we must act. As with protecting the weak, fighting for the otherwise helpless, the very young or the elderly. Cruelty is sadly part and parcel to human community but when we peel away the irritability and frustration, a better way always is shown.

But sincerely, as a brother and fellow psychonaut, I urge you to put aside your analogies of punching or kicking. Sensory attachment to individuated physicality can just as easily be communicatively expressed by a friendly pat on the back, a hug, a kiss or a hearty handshake. Again, "Blessed are the peace makers". Just sayin' and forgive me for so digressing from the topic of free will. Still, it may well be bonafide freedom of will that so causes me to write thusly? And please don't take any offense, I just wanted to explain why this line of thought is so unsettling to my ego's psychology and sensibilities.

And as always, jamie, you raise valid and provocative observations. I honestly thank you for your wisdom and insight. I also thank all of you fine folks for your great ideas and clean, intelligent, verbal expressions. I am enriched by all of your fine thoughts and do treasure the lessons I've learned by listening carefully to the wisdom of your perspectives. This Nexian community totally rocks!

"But sincerely, as a brother and fellow psychonaut, I urge you to put aside your analogies of punching or kicking"

But why? Does it make you uncomfortable? I don't feel that I have said anything at all to actually promote or glorify violence, and I think if people feel I have it says more about them than it does myself..I am simply being realistic about the world we live in. Too often people want fluff bunnies and rainbows(when in reality many people are suffering from violence right now, and for them it IS real), and I find that really lacking genuine sincerity. I acknowledge this aspect of reality because it is something we all encounter at some point, and if you(I mean anyone in general) are unable to acknowledge that the suffering of others due to violence IS real than what does that make you other than another product of a gentrified market of new age "spiritual" products and philosophies? there is a serious trap in new age thinking, in that some of the ideas presented can be extremely comforting. That serves a purpose, I get that..but can also become a bit of a glass box for the true mystic. Radical honesty is something that I find many people are uncomfortable with. If you want to change anything, change yourself..but don't assume that is changing anyone else. Everyone elses sufferings in this world are still very real for those people. All we can say is that experience in general is subjective, and that includes ALL states of consciousness including mystical states of non-dual awareness. I try to refrain from telling other people that we are all just one etc, because the only person worth telling that to is myself, and that is enough. If you want to give some a gift, just give them your honesty and give it with empathy, free from judgements and projections. As a mystic, I seek out gnosis in the world as it is, not necessarily as I wish it to be. As an idealist, I seek out gnosis in my imagination..not in the world as it is, but in it's unmanifest shadow..or perhaps the imagination is that which casts the shadow of this world into being..either way, both are present.

In the numinosity of the world, I glimpse a poetry so captivating that any attempt at subjugation feels almost heartbreaking.

The truth is that if someone kicks me in the balls, it really does hurt. If that offends some people, or makes them feel uncomfortable because they would rather only discuss peace and harmony, so be it..but for myself, I feel that would be dishonest.

There are many ways to be in the world, and I find no value in assuming my way is the correct way, or a way for anyone other than myself. My own mystical path is one where I find value in going out into the world and being exposed to people, and places. I have a friend who had to escape the cambodian genocide, only to later see the rest of his family who landed in thailand swept away in a tidal wave..he walks the beaches singing songs for his dead kin, collecting pop cans. There is more truth in this man than any "holy" person I have encountered. This is the poetry of life..and I have always felt a great kinship with those wandering souls who truely have the dirt of the world under they're fingernails..they might not need to fit anywhere..they might not be saints, or gurus, or holy men and women..but for myself that is not where I find the treasure I seek anyway. I like the simple folk and all of they're silly imperfections. There is a wisdom in that to be found and for myself its a shimmering gem hidden away in a dusty old corner where many would simply never bother to look.

I will share something with yall, from one of my favorite thinkers at the moment. It might relate to the topic for you, or might not..I dont really care. I think it's beautiful and it's relevant for me, and a good place to share it with those who may find value in it.

http://neilkramer.com/roamcast-10-glass-man.html

Exactly!, a concept is just a concept. Essentially Both free will and fate are human constructs and exist only in the human mind. I use to think about these things often, sure, everything may be one but the truth is you will have better luck mastering a hobby (fishing is mine) than trying to unlock the secrets of the universe. This is not to say that these things shouldn't be thought about, but you eventually come full circle and discover that people who are totally oblivious have it partially right, and they come by it without even thinking about it.

It's so cool that the wisdom of Alan Watts is still topical amongst those who seek to break the mesmerism of the mind and awaken to the clarity of being awake in the lucidity of this present moment. These two are also wonderful and very poignant, dealing with the nature of reality and illusion, conceptualization and sheer silence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7vFOU8e0wU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26971uJuQuk

Jamie you are correct that when a ball sack is kicked pain is felt.

However, when a person is reached out to with kindness, empathy, and compassion, deep suffering begins to be removed.

I suspect you are going through a lot of pain or suffering (dukkha) right now and that is driving your view to look at all the bad in the world. It's there no doubt. But so is the good. If you focus on the bad you will only see bad. If you focus on the good you will help to bring more good into the world.

And you are completely wrong on one point. When we change ourselves we change our relationship with the world around us and this does in fact have an effect beyond our selves. No me meditating may not have a large impact on starving children in India (unless I'm moved to give), but it certainly has the effect of making my life, my wifes life, my coworkers lives, etc all slightly better. This in turn radiates from them to other, and so on.

We are all connected and a true empathy can understand the suffering of another who's ball sack has been kicked...even though he may won't experience the physical pain.

Peace

Like Alan Watts you have a way of explaining extremely complex ideas in such a simple manner, I love reading your posts on this forum. I'm more familiar with western concepts of philosophy and metaphysics so a lot of times when I read individuals from the other side I have a hard time understanding the things they say. Part of me wants to accuse them of creating words salads (salad tossers lol) that they don't even understand but I know it's my lack of knowledge and experience in the matter then holds me back from understanding them. That definitely isn't the case with you!

God is also the thousands of child sex slaves being trafficked around the world and being raped everyday against their will. The ones who have given up hoping. God is also the black kid who's given a gun and taught to kill people, or the starving kid dying of hunger or dehydration. Yes, there are many things from our perspective that are hard to accept. It's not all flowers and roses peaches and cream, but there is truth to it all. When talking about nondualism or we are all one I don't go straight to child rape and murder because I feel it's not being genuine to myself or others. If you feel your analogies of punching and kicking are genuine then keep at it by all means.

Making yourself suffer because you know others are suffering does not even help them, but it can wake you up, and waking up is part of the solution. Shocking people with gross analogies to "wake them up" to reality doesn't seem to help either, sometimes it can just push them further into their shell for protection. Changing yourself can change others, everything's connected intimately, a small change of your own behavior ripples throughout the world. There is wisdom hidden everywhere, in the charlatans, in the fake prophets, in the good ones, and the bad ones, in the "fake" life and in the "real" one, in the "wrong" world and the "idealized" one.

Nondualism is still the truth, but I think your ego doesn't like how people ascribe certain traits (I don't either) to nondualism such as...Nondualism is pure awareness therefore it excludes bad things and it's all peace and harmony. Well no, it can also be evil and hatred, nondualism is nondualism, things are as they are. It's still the truth though, it is all awareness at a deeper level. No matter how bad something is, if someone isn't perceiving it then it can't exist for good and bad to be ascribed to it. Awareness is truly all that exists, it doesn't exclude anything though, it is all.

Sorry all this was kind of unorganized.

I am actually in one of the best places in my life I have ever been. I don't really understand why people assume because I don't only talk about nice happy fluffy things I must be depressed or angry, but I can only assume it is because it makes some other people uncomfortable because they are attached to certain types of ideas. I find it interesting though, how one minute people can talk about non dualism and unity beyond polarity etc..and the next minute praise one set of emotions over the other, suggest that certain aspects of reality not even be mentioned and resort to all kinds of conclusions about me(or anyone else) because(and I even stated this) I am simply trying to be honest..which is a total collapse into duality. How can you claim non duality is the ultimate truth, while at the same time trying to push people into one side of the polarity? I do this sometimes and catch myself falling into all kinds of fallacies. Any time we respond to something we have to be careful that we are not simply responding to ourselves.

I don't feel I focus on the bad..I simply stated an observation, because no one else was talking about it. This is not something I suggested(focusing on bad things), anywhere in my posts. Just because I simply chose to outline a scenario, that is an undeniable part of our existence, does not mean that I choose to focus on that one scenario..This is more about ow we respond, based on our own beliefs, to others, than it is about what others feel or imply.

"Making yourself suffer because you know others are suffering does not even help them, but it can wake you up, and waking up is part of the solution. Shocking people with gross analogies to "wake them up" to reality doesn't seem to help either, sometimes it can just push them further into their shell for protection"

I never said anything, anywhere about making myself suffer. Why would I want to do that? Again..this is a perfect example of what I am trying to say about other people being uncomfortable with what I say, and then projecting they're own junk onto me. Why would you assume I am making myself suffer? Honesty is just honesty..and it's liberating. I don't have any kind of attachment to these ideas. It is the way a person responds to the mention of scenarios I have outlined that is telling for me.

I don't suffer simply because I understand that real suffering is happening in the world.

You have assumed that, because of how YOU feel about that. It has NOTHING to do with me.

I have no desire to wake anyone up. People are where they are because that's where they are. It is entirely about them. Why would I be so arrogant to assume that it is my duty to make someone else think something?

I am happy right now with things just as they are.

Wake yourself up.

"God is also the thousands of child sex slaves being trafficked around the world and being raped everyday against their will. The ones who have given up hoping. God is also the black kid who's given a gun and taught to kill people, or the starving kid dying of hunger or dehydration. Yes, there are many things from our perspective that are hard to accept. It's not all flowers and roses peaches and cream, but there is truth to it all. When talking about nondualism or we are all one I don't go straight to child rape and murder because I feel it's not being genuine to myself or others. If you feel your analogies of punching and kicking are genuine then keep at it by all means"

This is not a very coherant train of thought. First you state all these aspects of the world and claim they are god etc..and then the next moment you state that mention of these things is not genuine of honest...that makes no sense. If it's not genuine or honest, than why did you mention it as well?

How did I "go straight to child rape and murder"? I actually talked about a whole lot of other stuff aside from that...perhaps you did not read all the other things I wrote.

If one cannot make some peace with all aspects of the world, both subjective and objective, within themselves..and accept that this is one side of reality without needing to respond to the existence of certain aspects..how can they ever expect to attain a true glimpse of the mystical world? All they will simply do is keep responding..that's not real stillness. That's cereal box mysticism.

Philosophical debates are no fun when people just become emotionally charged every time someone highlights certain points that they don't personally like.

Stop believing in things..even the things you think you don't believe in but actually do.

please don't take any of this personally, anyone. One thing that puts me off more and more from even engaging anyone is this kind of discussion, is that many people seem to read too much into things and become offended. No one here has the monopoly on the truth, and a person speaking what they actually feel rather than what they want others to think they feel is worth everything.

Many people here seem to assume that because of certain examples I use, or aspects of life I choose to explore in contemplation, that this means I take some kind of dualist (or even violent) approach.

I am certainly not a dualist, nor would I claim to be a non-dualist. The non-dual approach is still essentially a dualist approach. You cannot claim a label, let alone a label that represents the opposite of something, and claim it is beyond the realm of multiplicity.

There is only nothing, and everything, and they are the same thing. Everything that happens in between is fair game for philosophical contemplation. Otherwise, you just end up with someone telling everyone else how to think.

He's extremely well spoken..or was anyway..which is part of his appeal. Language is full of traps, and few people seem to be able to navigate that place without falling in.

Free will is the idea of opening up doors in a sense of not knowing whats on the other side. You just don't know and hope for the best. There are many doors, and you can create them too as well, its not craziness, it is you making yourself to the best of what you deem the best. No matter what happens in my opinion some will hate you for changing, but others will care for what you tried. Its just how it is, some hate, some understand, but don't stop trying, cause that is when you truly lose free will (letting others dictate what you do), when you stop trying (but for the right reasons, not to hurt yourself or anyone else). Just my opinion.

I'll be honest with you, I assumed you were suffering because I used to use arguments like "If someone punched you in the face it would hurt you and not them" when I was suffering. Thanks for pointing that out.



I'll be honest again, I say mentioning these things to people is not genuine or honest because I've noticed that every time I do try to use one of these "shock" statements, I have an ulterior motive where I want to "wake" them up to my point of view by putting fear in them. I projected this ulterior motive onto you when I saw you using that "punch you in the face" argument. I wasn't saying you were going straight to child rape and murder that was just my example using a similar violent statement to your "punch you in the face" statement.

I don't know if you're referring to me when you say emotionally charged but I can assure you I'm not.

Is your main point that people are not accepting both sides of the reality coin?

I don't really know what else to say to you reading back through your posts. Kind of hard to understand what you stand for. All is one? All is duality? All is nonduality? No free will? You're going to forcefully take free will? Nostalgia for your home? Lesser and greater constructs? Confusing stuff indeed. Do you have an intent for writing the things you write?

From personal experience, i have found that human beings can be contradictory animals. Do we really need to make a stance for any one particular mode of thought?

I like alan watts too. He's like a cross between David Carradine era kung fu and Christopher Lee.

Life itself would seem to be a contradiction.

That is a very human observation.