..i'll add to my last post, that what originally got me interested in the vedas generally was years ago a profound vision i had of the 'devi' following a psilocybin mushroom experience..this led to an increased focus on 'purification of mind'..as other traditions also lead to..the many cosmological forms, entities and worlds of the vedas and other traditions inform on an individual path level..but a number of old traditions talk about going beyond visions, and beyond mind..the origin of form..when i increasingly reached this point with tryptamines (and without), advaita became more relevant..that's really how i ended up there..

the Self (as advaita calls it) became ever more all-pervasive..in all situations

form to formless..
Jai Ma

In my infinitesimally tiny dreamscape of selfhood, the practice of sitting meditation predated smoking pot, dropping acid or eating shrooms (let alone vaping NN-DMT). I was acutely interested in metaphysics, ever since nearly drowning as a boy of 9 or 10 years old. An OBE triggered by a NDE, wholly shatters any notion of being just the material body or merely the mind. Mom had gotten into Christian Science when we were just youngsters. TM was big in the 1970s and I read the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's best selling book, Science of Being and Art of Living, as well as books on Zen and Silva Mind Control. This, however, was hardly enough to open the doors of perception and bridge the gap in my experience. Then... along came cannabis, LSD-25 and mescaline! It was after experiencing kundalini activation spontaneously and deeply immersing within states of Savikalpa Samadhi, that my interest in Eastern spirituality bloomed and exponentially so! For myself, Advaita Vedanta is the lustrous pearl inherent within all of my earnest searching for truth... and the realization of the core reality beneath the surface all appearances of this or that.


Beautiful, zhoro. You've quite a lovely way with words and I can surely resonate with much of what you wisely shared here in this wonderful thread. Moreover, your last statement was truly significant to all of us who are seekers, here at the Nexus. Entheogens are eye-opening, profoundly healing and I do agree 100%... they are nothing short of Sacred Medicines. The ancient Indian Rishis who created the poetry of the Rig Vedas surely experimented with deep psychedelic voyages. AKA the legendary elixir, Soma.

For those who are familiar with Swami Paramahansa Yogananda's classic book, Autobiography of a Yogi, there are two very specific references to entheogens, within the chapter about the initial meeting of Lahiri Mahasaya and the great Himalayan sage, Sri Babaji Maharaj. Go to chapter 34, folks.. Sri Babaji invites the young Lahiri into a cave which he had practiced his own sadhana for ages, reminding his disciple from a prior lifetime, of their past existence together as master and student, a bond transcending the cyclical nature of time.

He point blank says, "Behold there your bowl, from which you often drank the nectar prepared by me! See how I have kept the brass cup brightly polished, that you might drink again therefrom?" Was it the legendary Soma... or was it a form of Ayahuasca, an admixture of hashish and psilocybin mushrooms or something else? Very intriguing.

He then continued with the sage advice that he needed to get ready for another round of alchemical experiences. "Lahiri, you need purification. Drink the oil in this bowl and lie down by the river." Charan Lahiri then tripped balls for several hours. Was this hash oil or something else, entirely and altogether? It was something powerful and psychedelically entrancing, totally mind blowing, that's for darned sure! Granted, this was in preparation for a life-long journey of meditation, not a new diet or an addiction to an external catalyst.

IMO and that of many others, the evidence is very compelling and indeed, all signs do point to the identity of the mysterious Himalayan saint Babaji, as being the the nearly mythical, legendary Shaivite master Sri Gorakshanath. Also, Sri Babaji is associated with the the Siddha guru, Sri Bogarnath, who was an alchemist and a highly advanced Siddha master. It's no great stretch of intelligence to arrive at the conclusion, that the two are one. Sri Gorakshanath taught Kundalini Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Kriya Yoga and was also an avid exponent of Ayurveda, extolling the use of alchemical, herbal healing. It's common knowledge that wandering Shaivite sadhus imbibe "bhang", which is potent hashish and also use datura root in their sadhana. So, acting as a catalyst, any of the major psychedelic molecules do dramatically aid in our direct interphase with the Divine center of all being.

That being said, we are each eventually called to cross into such high frequency states of conscious-awareness and arise to such exalted levels of perception, by sheer intent and keenly-attuned attention, alone. Perhaps this is why deep meditation and contemplative self inquiry have played so heavily in the development and expansion of the wisdom of Advaita? Thus, when the path is revealed, we ought to follow the way. So, with or without the juice, the Sacred Medicine, we are awakening rapidly into the dawning of our own truest nature. Yes we are, each in our own unique way!


Noble nen888, you are so right on! Your words are sweet nectar for the mind. And I concur with your observation, we do each and all of us unfold into deeper and still deeper levels of experiential awakening. And in and of itself 'tis an ever-expanding, forever blossoming, perceptual field of consciousness emerging. This so resplendently pours out to some sequential degree of unravelling, undoing, rebirthing and effulgently becoming. You are most astute to say, "so, it was a progression", as it is with most of us present inside of this cyber clubhouse. I am so thankful that you penned this incredible thread! Man, you've done a fabulous job drawing hungry minds into this sublime line of thought. God bless you for your existence and your resolve to enlighten yourself, my dear wise friend! We are surely That. One and all. Echoes and reflections of the Absolute state of being, for an eternity in resplendent bloom! How high are we?

This whole turn in the discussion is so paralleled within a new thread I recently penned. Boy, it would be so sweet to hear some of your stories relating to your own entheogenic usage and the spiritual quest ensuing post ego death, experienced therein. Hoping that you might drop by and visit and chime in. That is... if you've any interest to share some your unique experiences, both personally and Omni-personally. Just an invitation to some of my favorite folks, within this beautiful oasis, this open forum we all share together, the DMT-Nexus. This is the link:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=61392

..hello and happy new year! ..may it bring greater awareness and peace..

slightly delayed Rising Spirit..thank you..
i'll meditate on what i may say (and thanks for your great posts and topic enthusiasm!)

i rarely describe any of my visionary or entheogenic experiences..there are a few good reasons, but i'll get into that later also, a couple of old traditions suggest this practice..
as i said earlier, i see entheogens as a (true) tantric, and potentially yogic technique..if there's focus..
but, there was a description of high level tryptamines in another thread somewhere..a long thread..
the basic summary is: after being convinced of dying and having died, disembodied, through every known realm and multitude of places and beings (in about 80 seconds) ..to where it all lead, 'altitude wise'..
..there was a light..brighter than 1000 suns..so bright it should have scorched eyes, had there been eyes at that point..like a drop returning to ocean..
and the light was also a sound..and it was like OM..
infinite Om..
within 'It' were states of complete knowledge, absolute awareness..unbounded..i can't even describe it..but it was clear..

'Neti-Neti'

and yet aways 'there'..

Vedanta uses experience based deductive reasoning..this is more than faith alone..
Om is the symbol of this non-dual absolute state..
Om is light but is metaphoric symbolic of sound..the wave..
the sound Om has a beginning, transition, and end..
but Om/Brahman/Adya is in a sense all three states in one, and none..
'It' is neither vibrating or not vibrating..it is like the scale in which any state can be, or not be, or Is..and it is like the very basis of experience..

think black/white..light/void..but the basis is neither..
"..the Self..ever shining..within it is neither day nor night…"

..the 'Clear light of the Void' in Dzog Chen Buddhism..

awareness is required for experience including perception or thought
..in pure vedanta, by careful and methodical observation, austerity and practice, there is increased awareness of awareness..

..Unbounded..and 'un-modified'..'presence'..

peace…

but yeah, it's always 'here'/there..entheogens or no entheogens..

.







..from the Avadhuta Gita:


"The absolute void and its opposite, all am I everlastingly."

"The whole universe is a projection of the mind; therefore it is a mode of the mind. The true nature of the mind is bliss, and when the mind is stilled, bliss absolute is revealed.

"Consciousness absolute, being unknowable by the mind, how can speech explain it?

 "

"The Self is free from day and night, and therefore the conception of its pilgrimage in time and space is no true one."

.

..incidentally, Gita, sanskrit, means 'song'..


ॐ



Rising Spirit, nen, thank you for sharing the wisdom and depth gained on your intrepid explorations.

..thank you zhoro.. and thank you Rising Spirit, bless you..


..i feel i should add a little more on the assertion that this 'absolute state' of reality or consciousness experience, that vedanta and other traditions allude to, is always present regardless of whether on an entheogen, or not, regardless of mood, state and set..this is the objective, but how is this so?

..from a vedantan point of view the shorthand answer is - the mind..
all of our contexts and concepts of objects, as well as the objects, are projections of mind..we see a particular image and think, for instance, 'chair'..this is a mental construction..each construction with attached sets of strings of association and attachment..vast patterns in the end..and then there's thoughts..oh, how all over the place they like to go!
but whether we are seeing consensus 'ordinary' reality, or psychedelic lights, we understand and construct them via mind..
the classic Vedanta example is when we mistake a rope for a snake..the mind creates something which is not there, and the emotional response is based on what it perceives to be there..but this example is widely and better discussed in vedantan works..

the notion of of having a point of view from a point in space (and time) is a construction of mind..this is still valid within a neurochemical/materialist model..whether or not there is something out there, it's still a construct of mind..a projection..

the 'truly spiritual' is there in all states..it's where the focus of mind is that 'masks' it..

why there are these dynamics, patterns, and perceptions is, in vedantan tradition,
the mystery of Maya, which is the inherent power to create..the mirror..which leads me back to Shaktism..which utilises a form of sorts to focus on in order to go beyond the multitude of mayan projections, be they ordinary people or 'spirits', to the non-dual state..all dimensions and objects of the mind are 'veiled' or limited aspects of consciousness..

there are various methods to the objective..which is beyond (as tibetan buddhists would say) the 'realms of the lesser lights'..
entheogens can potentially guide a person closer to the objective by firstly taking someone beyond their usual and more limited mental self constructions, both internal and external, and then dismantling the usual boundary of self identification..but much entheogenic use is haphazard, and simply transient..and no kind of 'vision' is the objective..
'Turyia' is beyond the senses..yet is experienceable, at least in it's 'essence', as the basis of senses, and sense..
the vedanta tradition emphasises that the path is not easy, and requires focused and daily routine of practice, and the development of control of mind, and it's desires or fears ..and to keep practising.. a momentary experience of the essence of this unbounded constant can benefit the individual in terms of productivity, contentedness, motivation, clarity and decisiveness..but it is the sustained experiencing, even subtly, which ultimately benefits..daily practice or focus..

what is It? in physics 'things' are constructed of some packet, or loop, of energy..what is called Brahman in Vedanta is the continuum..the sub-quantum, the void in which probability of particles exists..and maya, or shakti, is the inherent power of possibility..which is neither a thing or not a thing, neither real nor not real..the mystery within the absolute..
the experience of which is likened to contentment, or bliss..and freedom..

beyond vision, or mind..
through diligence..
.


thank you all thread contributors previously..



ॐ

Morning nen Great thread, great talk.



When you say Turia, I was wondering if what you meant was "Turiya" (the fourth state)? The Mandukya Upanishad speaks of it briefly. The state beyond waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep; the ground of pure consciousness. In Turiya, there is no awareness of the inner world, no awareness of the outer world;for it's the ground from which consciousness arises to paint the landscapes of waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep. It's the cessation of all things phenomenal, complete union with Atman, non-dual; nirvikalpa.

Much love nen,
<3

How inspirational all of this thread is. I love all insight/thoughts even those that didn't get posted...

..glad for the inspiration hardboiled..thank you..keep inspired..

and hi Tattvamasi..yes i meant 'Turyia', it was a typo, apologies
yeah the Mandukya Upanishad was given in full earlier in the thread..it's verse 7 that is key, and describes Turyia..'the fourth' state..which you gave a good summary of ..much love also

it would be nice to look at some more of the upanishads in the thread, as they are a core of the subject..

..with vedantan practice, the mind is trained to focus on the objective..with the 'buddhi' (intuitive intellect) and 'jnana' (knowledge - by direct experience) focused on Brahman, the yogic union emerges..
sometimes through initially the focus on a symbolic object, such as Om, or an 'embodied' god(ess)
..the objective being the non-dual state, or 'Self', as vedanta calls it..
.




here's a good vedanta talk, looking at some of the issues just discussed:



ॐ

Namaste to All,

Wow, it's just plain fantastic to see that this wonderful thread is still being an inspirational light and of heavy topical discussion for many of the more spirituality-inclined folks, amongst our Nexian community. It's so cool to witness this whole process evolving and sparkling so beatifically. I believe that many of the core principles of this realm of deep inquiry and spiritual interconnection are wholly universal. Along such a line of thought... words fall shy of the immediacy of the union of the individual and the indivisible. Obviously, one cannot fathom the infinite from a finite perspective. One cannot grok the absolute from a relative state of mind. Nor can one embrace the eternal from a temporal stance or fully realize immortality within a mortal paradigm. Or can one? I have come to see that one can unequivocally make the epic leap beyond the dream of this life, which we've come to accept as our normal state, as is clearly revealed within the wisdom of the Vedantic tradition. But one must willingly pass through ego-death and rebirth.

After all, one's entire understanding of existence must dramatically shift it's point of attention, intent, it's very self-parameters and scope in awareness. To do so, common organic consciousness must exponentially expand into cosmic consciousness. While we may approach the reality being contemplated, through human reason, scriptural study and insight culled from a philosophical context... naught but direct experience can justifiably reveal that most sublime state of Turiya (the non-dual/undifferentiated field of consciousness). Said knowledge is beyond ordinary comprehension, as it devours the subjectivity of the internal witness, the fragile boundaries of the isolated soul... leaving only Brahman aware of itself. No longer many states of mind, many variations of selfhood... just the scintillating singularity of the non-dual vibration of AUM (the roaring silence of the Carrier Wave).

Sweetly enough, many of you have entered into this vortexial fulcrum of experience and are living, loving embodiments of those truths gleaned from the sacred interphase, what I often reference as "The Eclipsing" or "The Awakening of the Omniself". It's a pleasure to share this lovely mutual epiphany with you all. Still and that being said, it's of invaluable importance to review and absorb the wisdom so freely expressed by such ancient texts, as the Upanishads. The wealth of ideas and insights therein can and continue to awaken the minds and hearts of humanity, forever seeking itself anew, even within this contemporary historical setting, right here in the 21st century.

While much has been said about the pure ideals of Advaita Vedanta, the powerful inquiry, eloquently re-introduced by Sri Gaudapada in the sixth century CE (Sri Adi Shankaracharya's Guru's Guru)... it's essentially up to us to reinterpret and internalize the essence of these sacred teachings, so as to kinda personalize them for our own unique understanding. To breathe new life into the time-honored notions handed down from the ancient Rishis of olden days. It is my penchant to re-conceptualize these truths into my own ideological constructs and so, to re-word much of the kernel of the ancient Vedic scriptures, with names and concepts which relate to the view I see them through (as we all ought to do, right?).

I am reminded of a beautiful young man I met about a decade and a half ago. He claimed that he was translating Sakyamuni's timeless wisdom, The Dhammapada. I asked him which language he was translating this literary treasure into, assuming that since he was of Puerto Rican descent, he meant into Spanish. This has already been done. But no, he simply replied, "My own language". He was re-wording the wisdom of Buddha, page by page. He had already done so with the New Testament and I was intrigued by his sincerity. I was truly impressed and inspired by this honest approach to grokking scriptural knowledge. In this light, I'd like to add my own two cents worth into this fine discussion, started by our fellow Nexian, the esteemed sage and psychonaut, nen888.

As has been stated, we as human earthlings first hear of the undifferentiated reality of Brahman in the various Upanishads, especially the Mandukya Upanishad comes to mind. Suddenly, the world is gifted a new view into a reality which underlies all dimensions, levels, alternate planes, degrees of reality and even parallel realities... thus, non-dualism is birthed in human words! Clearly revealed in the Isa Upanishad, "To the seer, all things have become known directly as Atman." So the following truth really hits home, "Atman is Brahman", crystallized as a pure non-dual self, one free of the split dichotomy of Jivatman and Paramatman. Likewise free of the duality of Brahman as nirguna and saguna (without and with quantifiable aspects, attributes and perceivable characteristics). So, Brahman is both and neither, all observable things, yet no-thing (as we understand things). Hence the sheer paradox.

So too, given that Atman and Brahman are symbiotically one and the same... Atman dances as both, nirguna and saguna. Ultimately though, Self is likewise wholly unbound and undifferentiated. Fact is, we are each and all of us, Godself emerging into the dreamscape of our own reflection and disappearing ecstatically within our truest nature, emptiness within fullness, ad infinitum. And this Omniversal self is the exact same thing as the Supreme Godhead... one without a second. Ergo, when one realizes that the all-in-all of existence, is naught but the Self in active expression, all duality disappears from the understanding of the inner witness of one's own perception, one's soul essence, if you will... into the sheer serenity of simply being existent without delusion. Knowing oneself as all selves interconnected seamlessly and all aspects of an infinity of selves, as the indivisible Omniself. For the witness to the blinding light dissolves into immovable stillness and immeasurable bliss... finding it's truest nature, only to evaporate like morning dew.

The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad triumphantly proclaims, "Neti, neti". Brahman is not this or that, nor any other thing at all... save the formless, attribute-less nature of all that is, has ever been or will become existent. The great Tao, which abides as all things yet, is boundless and unlimited, for this ineffable presence remains infinite, eternal and absolute. Touching yet untouched. All differentiation exists within the mind only. Just whose mind, on the other hand, is the really big question. Is not all occurrence happening within the mind? I feel that mind is a matrix of sorts. We each gaze through seemingly isolated lenses... yet still, the akashic medium is everywhere, singular, etheric and quite mysterious. As wise ole Merlin mused, "The Dragon is everywhere but you can never catch it."

All aspects of individualized self are united by mind. Not merely the rational, thinking mind, churning up relative conceptualizations, rather the over-mind, the primordial mind of the Godhead. What Sri Aurobindo named, "The Supermind". Whether we see this as Buddha-mind or Christ consciousness, it becomes transparent that when mind ceases to quantify itself through ideas and beliefs... an experience outside of the accustomed body-self arises spontaneously. Oneself is effulgently realized as not being of just the accustomed material, mental or emotional content... for it is eternal and at it's core, without attributes of any kind.

It is the ineffable quintessence of Sat-Chit-Ananda. Chandogya Upanishad rejoices with the introduction of the Sanskrit jewel, "Tat Tvam Asi". So too, oneself is God and God is oneself. My self is your self, is every manifestation of self and simultaneously, only the Omniself glances at itself, watching itself glancing at itself, through it's myriad existential expressions. The jeweled mirror of Atman reveals the greatest symmetry and symbiosis. God then, is seemingly and equally, just as curious as mankind. Who and what am I? This is where the psychonaut blooms exponentially, for the journey leads into the core of this mystery. As our ecstatic friend Boy Pony enthusiastically states, we enter into "God-Mode". Knowing without thinking, being without containment.

We effectively expand beyond ego-identification and transcend our isolated paradigm and in so doing, awaken as a pure, limitless state of conscious-awareness. Verily, we remember that we are the universe awakening to the experience of being human and conversely, a human awakening to the experience of being universal or rather, Omniversal (deep bow and a nod to Hyperspace Fool). Thus, when everything is perceived as being Divine Being, not a thing can be other than an echo and a reflection of That. Hallelujah, right here & now we are birthed anew, as the epicenter of the Unified Field in resplendent bloom!

So we name this level and degree of perfection, each in their own manner. Be it called Brahman, The Tao, Sunyata, YHWH or Allah... The Clear Light of the Void pulls on us to merge. And so, we enter immersion. Caught between moments, effulgently we dissolve our ego-selves into the vortexial fulcrum of the non-thing of all selves. We become spell-bound by the dazzling perfection of this eternal moment and shine on, forever brightly. Of such a degree of Samadhi, what can be experienced that is not oneself? Whose self was that, again? "Aham Brahmasmi". Basically, one recalls that "I am Brahman". Essentially, this is wholly identical with the revelation of Moses, when Yahweh spoke aloud saying, "I am that I am".

And if one's existential perceptual field, then becomes so still, serene and translucent as to seemingly disappear within the vacuum of the Zero-self, is there any human linguistic system that can truly describe this miracle? Even reading, reciting or chanting Sanskrit cannot capture the experience for the eager seeker. Only direct attunement can do so, be it birthed by entheogens, NDE, OBE, sadhana, deep meditation or self-inquiry... the direct experience is totally key here! Now when I am in dualistic state of consciousness, there seems to be volumes one could say or write but in the self-erasure of the eclipsing... only the motionless vibration beyond the birthing of the I Am principle, freely resides. Of such total emptiness and complete stillness... nothing can feasibly be said.

Even so, we keep thinking, talking and writing about what is so far beyond words it is laughable. But ain't we got fun?

Hari Om Tat Sat.

Definitely

The Katha Upanishad is really one of my favorites, and i'll share a brief piece of the dialogue between Nachiketa (student) and Yama (King of Death).

Nachiketa:

These pleasures last but until tommorow,
And they wear out the vital powers of life.
How fleeting is all life on earth! Therefore
Keep your horses and chariots, dancing
And music, for yourself. Never can mortals
Be made happy by wealth. How can we be
Desirous of wealth when we see your face
And know we cannot live while you are here?
This is the boon I choose to ask you for.

Having approached an immortal like you,
How can I, subject to old age and death,
Ever try to rejoice in a long life
For the sake of the senses' fleeting pleasures?
Dispel this doubt of mine, O king of death:
Does a person live after death or does he not?
I ask for no other boon
Than the secret of this great mystery.

Yama:

The joy of the spirit ever abides,
But not what seems pleasant to the senses.
Both these, differing in their purpose, prompt
Us to action. All is well for those who choose
The joy of the spirit, but they miss
The goal of life who prefer the pleasant.
Perennial joy or passing pleasure?
This is the choice one is to make always.
Those who are wise recognize this, but not
The ignorant. The first welcome what leads
To abiding joy, though painful at the time.
The latter run, goaded by their senses,
After what seems immediate pleasure.
Well have you renounced these passing pleasures
So dear to the senses, Nachiketa,
And turned your back on the way of the world
That makes mankind forget the goal of life.

Far apart are wisdom and ignorance.
The first leads one to Self-realization;
The second makes one more and more
Estranged from one's real Self,
Nachiketa, as worthy of instruction,
For passing pleasures tempt you not at all.

Ignorant of their ignorance, yet wise
In their own esteem, those deluded men
Proud of their vain learning go around and around
Like the blind led by the blind. Far beyond
Their eyes, hypnotized by the world of sense.
"I am the body; when my body dies,
I die." Living in this superstition,
They fall life after life under my sway.

It is but few who hear about the Self.
Fewer still dedicate their lives to its
Realization. Wonderful is the one
Who speaks about the Self. Rare are they
Who make it the supreme goal of their lives.
Blessed are they who, through an illumined
Teacher, attain Self-realization.

The truth of the Self cannot come through one
Who has not realized that he is the Self.
The intellect cannot reveal the Self,
Beyond its duality of subject
And object. Those who see themselves in all
And all in them help others through spiritual
Osmosis to realize the Self themselves.

I will give you the Word all scriptures
Glorify, all spiritual disciplines
Express. It is OM. This symbol of the Godhead
Is the highest. Realizing it one finds
Complete fulfillment of all one's longings.
When OM reverberates unceasingly
Within the heart, that one is indeed blessed
And deeply loved as one who is the Self.

The all knowing Self was never born,
Nor will it die. Beyond causes and effect,
This Self is eternal and immutable.
When the body dies, the Self does not die.
If the slayer believes that he can kill
Or the slain believes that he can be killed,
Neither know the truth. The Self slays not,
Nor is ever slain.

Though one sits in meditation in a
Particular place, the Self within
Can exercise influence far away.
Though still, he moves everything everywhere.


When the wise realize the Self,
Formless in the midst of forms, changeless
In the midst of change, omnipresent
And supreme, they go beyond sorrow.

The Self cannot be known through study
Of the scriptures, nor through the intellect,
Nor through hearing discourses about it.
The Self can be attained only by those
Whom the Self chooses. Verily unto them
does the Self reveal himself.

That's just a piece of this dialogue in the Katha. So many key aspects of the Upanishads are funneled into this particular Upanishad. Just figured id type out pieces that stuck out to me, or to warrant further discussion.

<3

A passage from Padmasambhava's Treasures from Juniper Ridge (highly recommended) which is quite topical and has important practical directions.




When I, Guru Padma of Uddiyana,
Was eight years of age, my faith weakened.
I went before Guru Shri Singha,
Offered gifts, and requested teachings.

My guru said, “Train your mind in the Tripitaka.” Therefore, in the eastern direction of the Vajra Throne, I studied the sutras; in the southern direction, I studied the Vinaya; in the western direction, I studied Abhidharma; and in the northern direction, I studied the paramitas. Then I went before Shri Singha, offered gifts, and studied the entire Tripitaka.

I asked him to please accept me. My guru replied, “Son, you must first train your mind in the teachings of Secret Mantra.”

Thus, in the country of Uddiyana, I studied the three yogas; in the country of Sahor, I studied Mahayoga tantra and the Mind Section of the Great Perfection; in the country of Nairanjara, I studied Kilaya; in the country of Singha, I studied Padma Maheshvara; in the country of Vasudhara, I studied Kriya; in the country of Nepal, I studied Yamantaka; in the country of Merutse, I studied Mamo; at the Vajra Throne, I studied the eight heruka sadhanas; and in the country of Lantsha, I studied Guhya Samaja, consisting of the four sections of father tantra and mother tantra.

Having realized all phenomena to be merely dreamlike, illusory, unreal, and false, I went before the guru who was expounding the Dharma to a gathering of 5,500 people, which included a number of kings. When I arrived, Guru Shri Singha said, “What do you want, novice?”

I replied, “I have studied the teachings of secret mantra extensively. Now I would like to receive teaching from you.”

Guru Shri Sangha said, “You are a learned man who has, first, studied the Tripitaka and, second, studied the Secret Mantra. Now let this gathering disperse.”

Then he continued, “You understand that all phenomena are false, but this does not help anything. This understanding – that everything is dreamlike, illusory, unreal, and false – should be assimilated in your being. Without taking it to heart, it becomes mere platitude. This does not results in enlightenment.”

I said, “If that is so, then please give me a teaching on taking it to heart.”

The guru replied, “First, make a mandala offering!”

I made a mandala of one measure of gold dust and offered it to him.

Shri Singha said, “Now, remain in front of me. Keep your feet in the cross-legged position, your hands in equanimity, and you back-bone erect. This is the key point of body.

“Direct your eyes towards the expanse of sky. This is the key point of the channels.

“Tighten you lower wind and suppress your upper wind. This is the key point of wind.

“Visualize an E from a red bindu in the nirmana-chakra at your navel center. Visualize a white bindu from a BAM in the mahasukha-chakra of your crown center. This is the key point of bindu.

“Focus your mind on the BAM being melted by the blazing fire from the E, after which the white and red bindu mingle together in the dharma-chakra of your heart center. This is the key point of mind.

“Let the white and red bindu become smaller and smaller, and finally, do not keep anything in mind whatsoever. This is the key point of perfect and complete enlightenment.

I practiced in this way, and some experienced arose, such as no sensation of the body, no sensation of the inhalation and exhalation of breath, the feeling of being able to move unimpeded through appearances, and the feeling that I was immortal. When these experienced occurred, I felt proud and related them to the guru.

The guru said, “It is extremely foolish to take pride in being touched by a master’s blessings and regard that as enough. Now go to a solitary place, and do not create any mental fabrications whatsoever.”

I went to a solitary place and for one year tried not to create any mental fabrications whatsoever. Some experiences arose, such as the feeling that “emptiness is appearance! Appearance is emptiness! Appearance and emptiness are indivisible! There is no duality regarding buddhas and sentient beings! There will be no evil deed committed even if I were to engage in unvirtuous acts! There will be no benefit even if I were to engage in the ten virtues!”

Regarding these as satisfactory, I related them to the guru. He said, “It is foolish to be satisfied with meditation experience.

“If you think that appearance and emptiness are indivisible, you should be detached from appearances. Are you?

“If you think that buddhas and sentient beings are indivisible, you should honor and serve sentient beings to the same degree as you would buddhas. Do you do that?

“If you think, ‘I will have no karmic ripening even if I engage in the ten unvirtuous acts,’ you should be able to accept the ten unvirtuous acts of others directed towards you – even if it might result in your death. Can you do that?

“If you think, ‘Even if I were to engage in the ten virtues, there would be no benefit,’ you should not have any sense of joy when you are benefited by others who are practicing the ten virtues – even if your own life is saved. Do you?

“Now, go again to a solitary place, and let your body remain like a corpse, let your voice remain like that of a mute, and let your mind remain like the sky.”

I then went to a solitary place and practiced that way, whereby eight experienced arose:

• an experience of clarity, utterly lucid without any inside or outside, manifesting as wakefulness and emptiness without difference, whether my eyes were open or closed
• an experience of emptiness, totally open and empty with no clinging to inside or outside and with the mind not dwelling on anything whatsoever
• an experience of bliss, which was like melting butter and became totally free and exhilarating, with no thought of having a body or a mind
• a state without clinging to various sense perceptions, yet still tainted by absentmindedness
• a state of wakefulness being like the sun shining in the sky
• an experience of the body being like mist, lacking both object and substance of physical action
• a feeling of recognizing neither self nor others
• a feeling that all sentient beings must be aware of the meaning of mind-essence to the same extent as I

Delighted with these experiences, I related them to the guru. He said, “There are three occasions in the Great Perfection: the occasion of spontaneous presence, the occasion of inconceivability, and the occasion of great bliss. Of these three, your experiences are the occasion of spontaneous presence. After having remained in freshness, the inconceivability and the great bliss will manifest.

“Samsara is beguiling and the mind is gullible! Do not be attached to meditation experience, but expand your mind.”

“How is one supposed to expand one’s mind?” I asked.

Guru Shri Singha replied, “There is not difference between buddhas and sentient beings other that their scope of mind. What is called mind, consciousness or awareness, is of a single identity. The mind of a sentient being is limited; the mind of a Buddha is all-pervasive. So develop a scope of mind that is like the sky which has not limit to the east, west, north, or south.”

I then went to a solitary place and developed a scope of mind that was like space, whereby these convictions arose:

• “This mind without any projection or dissolution of thoughts, remaining exactly as it is placed is an utterly one-pointed wakefulness and emptiness. This is precisely what is called one-pointedness.”
• “This mind is a complete absence of clinging to substantial things – a total openness with mind not dwelling on anything whatsoever. This is precisely what is called simplicity.
• a feeling of, “What else can there be? In whatever way I look, it is the same! There is nothing to abandon or accomplish! This is precisely what is called one taste.”
• a feeling of, “What else is there to search for? This is it whether one meditates or not! There is nothing whatsoever to practice! There is nothing to be cultivated through meditation! This is precisely what is called nonmeditation.”

I then had the powerful experiences of understanding:

• There cannot be anything beyond this!
• The two form-bodies (rupakaya) originate from dharmakaya, so these manifold manifestations of sights and sounds are like a flame and its light!
• There is no preceding impulse for the inhalation and exhalation of breath!
• Without creating anything, manifold expressions still manifest!
• This is unchanging like the essence of space!
• Not even the slightest dualistic mind is occurring!
• This is exactly it!

I had experiences of feeling vivid clarity, total purity, complete openness, all-pervasiveness – utterly encompassing, totally free, and completely diffused. The experience of clarity felt like the sun rising in the sky; the experience of emptiness felt like space; and the experience of bliss felt like an ocean. I had a variety of experiences that felt like the waves on the ocean or like the clouds in the sky.

When these occurred, I related them to the guru. Guru Shri Singha said, “The natural condition of things is devoid of something to be experienced. So what are you experiencing? What is it that experiences? What are you so elated about? I myself do not experience anything. Have you achieved something superior to that?

“Your experiences are an achievement that differs from that of the buddhas of the three times. Fixating on having an experience should be recognized as being seduced by Mara.

“All your experiences are contrived and result from fabrication. They will still come and go. They will not enable you to face difficulties. They are but a blanket of good concepts; you have not untied the knot of conceptual thinking. It is like having a latent sickness within. You might be blissful at present, but it will not help. Since you have not penetrated the core, the zombie of confusion still walks around.

“If you regard meditation experience as paramount, you cannot resolve the view while submerged in concepts. If you allow yourself to become fascinated by a fraction of samadhi – thinking that there is nothing higher – and regard it as the perfection of samadhi, you will not cut through the activity of conceptual thinking. You will not exhaust the layers of meditation experience, and the dirt of ignorance will not be purified.

“For each meditation experience, there is a temporary fascination. Perceiving them to be the only truth, you have become obscured. By obscuring the reality that is utterly free from attachment and transition, the instance of attachment and transition has turned these blissful results of yours into nothing but straying.

“If you cling to clarity and regard it as the highest, you will achieve the highest state in the realm of form. If you cling to the emptiness experience of nonthought and regard it as the highest, you will achieve the highest state in the formless realm. If you cling to bliss and regard it as the highest, you will attain nothing but the highest state in the realm of desire. However, none of these will result in attaining unexcelled enlightenment, the supreme siddhi of Mahamudra.

“If that is so, how should I train?” I asked.

“Bring forth your original mind, and then come back to see me!” he replied.

“Well, into what should I put effort?” I asked.

“All your effort should be put exactly into effortlessness!” he answered.

“How should I practice samadhi without effort?” I asked.

“Noble son, do not hold temporary experiences to be the highest; do not cling to them. Do not watch objects, and do not watch the mind. Do not get involved in a lot of things, and do not give rise to desires. Do not harbor needs, and do not entertain despair. Leave your mind exactly as it is. Let your mind rest like the center of space,” he said.

I then went to a solitary place and practiced exactly as he told me to. My previous experiences became nothing but layers of concepts and were completely extinguished. I realized natural mind, totally unobscured by any defects or virtues – utterly free from a basis of anything to be meditated upon or anything to cause confusion. I realized that if this natural mind were cultivated, nothing whatsoever would be produced; and, if not cultivated, there would be no confusion. I realized it to be natural mind devoid of any defect – naked and vivid wakefulness. Realizing this utter openness, totally fresh, the same taste of all the phenomena of samsara and nirvana, I related this to the guru.

The guru said, “The original nature, the uncompounded dharmakaya, is exactly this pure and naked natural mind devoid of something to be cultivated or something which causes confusion. Now, do not obscure yourself with further craving! Bring the old craver to the state of desirelessness!

“By sustaining a state known as never cultivating and never apart, never separated from the nature beyond cultivation, you will attain the supreme and common siddhis. Now, is there anything else bothering you?”

“There is nothing bothering me as I have no faults or regrets concerning my samaya,” I replied.

“Are you displeased?” he asked.

“I am just a little displeased,” I answered.

“If you are displeased, you have hope. If you are pleased, you have fear. If you have hope and fear, you have dualistic clinging. That will hinder the nondual wisdom of great bliss, the undefiled fruition. Without thinking this is either a fault or a virtue, stick to the practice of nonduality. From now on, just continue without coming back to see me!”

I then practiced in the town of Uddiyana and did not have the slightest thought of asking for teachings, of offering my experience, of virtue or nonvirtue, or of good and evil. I simply went wherever I went and sat however I sat. I became just like a corpse.

Then the guru arrived and said, “Aren’t you going to prostrate to me? Aren’t you going to present your realization to me?”

“This is not not prostrating, and I do not have even a tip of a hair’s worth of understanding to offer you. It is now like the trace of a bird flying in the sky,” I replied.

The guru said, “That realization cannot change; do not abandon it! Without separating from that realization, go wherever you wish. Keep your conduct in accordance with the Tripitaka. Keep your meditation in accordance with Secret Mantra. Keep your view in accordance with the Great Perfection. Fulfill the aims of sentient beings like a wish-fulfilling jewel. Sustain numerous worthy disciples. Although you have not desires, always make offerings to the gurus, yidams, and dakinis. You will become one whom the eight classes of gods and demons attend like a servant.” Saying this, he departed.

Thereafter, I took to heart the fact that all things are dreamlike and illusory and that the mind itself is beyond birth and death. I had visions of the deities of the eight heruka sadhanas, the eight classes of gods and demons became my servants, and I wandered through many Indian regions benefiting beings.

Later, when [King Trisong Deutsen was] building Samye, the eight classes of gods and demons were causing obstacles. I told them, “It is not good to make obstacles, for the king’s intention is as excellent as gold!”

The gods and demons retorted, “Why don’t you come here yourself, master.”

So I went in person to the Land of Snows, and on the way I met with the messengers.

I, Padma of Uddiyana,
Followed Guru Shri Singha.
This, his final instruction,
Liberated me, Padma.
Though not liberated by the Tripitaka or Secret Mantra,
I was liberated by this secret teaching.
May all the worthy ones also be liberated through this.
May this final and direct instruction
Of Guru Shri Singha
Meet with a worthy person who possesses former training!

This is concealed in the Lotus Crystal Cave.
I entrust it to you, Shampo,
In case an unworthy person comes.
There is no instruction like this in the world.
SAMAYA.
SEAL, SEAL, SEAL.
SEAL OF ENTRUSTMENT.
SEAL OF SECRECY.
ITHI.

Happy Navratri everyone !

..a quick response for now

Rising Spirit..your words are a wonderful thread, a joy..bless you..keep risen !


thanks Tattvamasi - much appreciate you bringing the Katha Upanishad to the thread..it is rich,
i will meditate on it a bit more before comment..

and thank you zhoro..instructional post..i will also read this more and meditate..good stuff..

yeah Navratri..
from an appreciating shaktism view..i have been in deep meditation, mantra and fasting observances of the Navratri nine day festivities, which celebrate the victory of the goddess Durga over the demons of impure mind - the Asura ('where the light is not' - Sanskrit) ..she takes on different forms to do this..
fasting, food and behaviour restrictions, puja, dance and ritual are traditionally done for the nine days of the goddess..
..Shaktism could be seen as a philosophy and methodology towards the non-dual objective of the Vedas..Brahman..Turyia.. 'big' ..
it is as i said earlier, 'practical dualism'..dynamics..
..though, 'brahman' comes from the sanskrit root word for growth or expansion..
in absolute monoist Shaktism the Devi (mother) is the basis or 'essence' for this..hence is truly 'neti-neti'..

in the end the quest is for the 'one' or the 'non-dual', and 'contentment', or 'peace'..
i find the historical 'Buddhist vs Vedanta' debate actually highly amusing..emptiness vs fullness, transient vs eternal etc..all about words,
but it's a good dynamic, like yin and yang, the debate, because it strengthens both approaches in their self inquiry..and intellect..


at the conclusion of my long meditation on the Mother (and the Maya) ..and the demons of impure mind..
at one with Ma..
there Is no emptiness..


may the Devi bring all you who contemplate these things salvation and liberation, into the clear state..

Jai Ma!

<3

Happy Mother's Nights, nen!







So good to see you have been able to go deep. I have a vision quest planned two months from now. Four days and nights alone on the hill, no food, no water. So looking forward to it.

JAI JAI MAAA... AUM

This series on Nisargadatta.

Rays of the Absolute

..jai jai Maa!

bless you Rising Spirit..

and thank you zhoro for bringing us back to advaitan focus..as always

Tattvamasi, apologies for the delay..
i thought i'd discuss a little some of the passages from the Katha Upanishad which you posted, thank you..
a lot more can be said though..

(it's also worth noting that different translations bring out slightly different expressions, of the same thing)



..here we have the core principle of the transient nature of pleasures in life vs the unending bliss of the Parmamatman..the omniscient consciousness..
i think an important point to make here is that the Vedantan view of morality, or sin, is quite different to the Judeo-Christian..many westerners reject concepts of renunciation in Vedanta, based on a jaded Christian concept of sin as doing something wrong, and of subsequent punishment..how can pleasurable acts of nature be 'wrong' when they are part of creation?
the Vedanta view (which parallels the Buddhist) is simply that you have a choice..obsession and addiction to transient acts of pleasure will lead one away from the realisation of the absolute, and hence away from lasting happiness..the constant need to satisfy the senses is a very small way of living life..whereas the absorption of the mind into the Atman, and the focus on actions which honour the 'deity' are a bigger picture, leading to a sense of completeness..identifying simply with the small self, the body/mind ego, is ignorance..
..samsara..the endless cycles of death and rebirth (but of what?)
..the Self, the Purusha, has no attributes..it is 'stainless'..and completely transcendental..without beginning..



..the Vedanta guidelines, or traditional 'laws', for how to conduct oneself are called Sastra (Shastra) .. (or the Yamas, as given by the supreme goddess)

..renunciation does not mean, in Vedanta, that one should give up one's career, or cease action, or not be engaged in life..it means not to be lead blindly by desire..it means to have control of one's desires..and to ultimately simply desire truth, of the Realm of the Self..

D. Krishna Ayyar wrote:

hence:

..the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and Adi Shankaracharya tells us that Karma-Yoga is required to attain the Knowledge yoga..positive actions are required..

but also Brahman, or That, or the transcendental goddess (or the like) cannot be simply realised by scholarship, intellect, and yoga and dharma (good actions), though these are all said to be required..and a teacher is said to help
..It must ultimately be understood directly..



..the unending sound..

ॐ

.

..there was a bit of discussion in another thread regarding Maya and what is real or not real..

so lets look more closely at Maya, literally, from a traditional Advaita Vedanta perspective..though there are a few different Vedic perspectives on this..

here is an excerpt of a discussion between Master and Disciple in the Advaita Bodha Deepika..an important advaitan text that was one of a few highly regarded by Sri Ramana Maharshi..

(note: 'Isvara' is like the creator, 'jiva' is like the soul, and 'jagat' is the material world)

-

"..M.: ...What happens is this: just as the dormant power of sleep displays itself as dream, so also the dormant power of Maya displays itself as this plurality, consisting of Isvara, His will, the universe and the jivas. Isvara is thus the product of Maya and He cannot be the origin of His origin. Maya therefore has no antecedent cause. In dissolution there remains only Pure Being devoid of will, and admitting of no change. In creation Maya hitherto remaining unmanifest in this Pure Being, shines forth as the mind. By the play of mind, plurality appears as Isvara, the worlds and the jivas, like magic. Maya manifest is creation, and Maya unmanifest is dissolution. Thus of its own accord, Maya appears or withdraws itself and has thus no beginning. Therefore we say there was no antecedent cause for it.

D.: What is its nature?
M.: It is inexpressible. Because its existence is later invalidated, it is not real; because it is factually experienced, it is not unreal; nor can it be a mixture of the two opposites the real and the unreal. Therefore the wise say that it is indescribable (anirvachaniya).

D.: Now what is real and what is unreal?
M.: That which is the substratum of Maya, Pure Being or Brahman, admitting of no duality, is real. The illusory phenomenon, consisting of names and forms, and called the universe, is unreal.

D.: How?
What can Maya be said to be?
M.: Neither of the two. It is different from the real substratum and also from the unreal phenomenon.

D.: Please explain this.
M.: Say there is fire; it is the substratum. The sparks fly off from it. They are the modifications of fire. The sparks are not seen in the fire itself, but come out of it. An observation of this phenomenon makes us infer a power inherent in fire which produces the sparks...
Water is the substratum; bubbles are its effects; a power different from both is inferred.
A seed is the substratum and the sprout, its product; a power different from the seed and the sprout is inferred.
The unchanging jiva of deep sleep is the substratum and dream is the effect; a power different from the jiva and the dream is inferred after waking up from sleep.
In the same way the power laying latent in Brahman produces the illusion of the jagat. The substratum of this power is Brahman and the jagat is its effect. This power cannot be either of them, but must be different from both. It cannot be defined. However it exists. But it remains inscrutable. Therefore we say the ‘nature’ of Maya is indescribable.

D.: What is the ‘effect’ of Maya?
M.: It consists in presenting the illusion of the jiva, Isvara and jagat on the non-dual substratum of Brahman, by virtue of its veiling and projecting powers.
As soon as the power lying dormant shows forth as mind, the latencies of the mind sprout forth and grow up like trees which together form the universe."

.

It is the wonder of wonders, indeed! A stirring occurs spontaneously in the clear field and, in the blink of an eye, a myriad nameforms arise, and histories extend, and forgetfulness of this having taken place sets in, and solidity becomes the norm, and investment in the different stories takes hold, and the dance goes on and on and on, and the naming game expands into form after form, and we talk, and talk, and talk ... until fatigue sets in and deep sleep erases it all temporarily, so that the game of creation can start afresh again with a subtle stirring in the clear field. Wondrous is the power of Mother Maya, indeed!

..may blessings of the Devi be with you zhoro ever-changing..and the same..

now let's focus on the Advaita ('not two'), care of the Mother..

..this is a learned wife instructing her husband, from the 'Tripura Rahaysa' (also highly regarded by Ramana)
.



'Please now tell me further, who is this mother of yours? How is she without beginning? Who are we? What is our real nature?'

Asked thus, Hemalekha told her husband:

" Lord, listen carefully to what I am going to say, for it is subtle. Investigate the nature of the Self with intellect made transparently clear. It is not an object to be perceived, nor described; how shall I then tell you of it? You know the Mother only if you know the Self.

The Self does not admit of specification...realise the Self within you, for it abides in unblemished intellect. It pervades all, beginning from the personal God to the amoeba; but it is not cognisable by the mind or senses; being itself unillumined by external agencies, it illumines all, everywhere and always. It surpasses demonstration or discussion.

Even the best teachers cannot bring your eyes to your sight...He can at best guide you towards it and nothing more. I shall also explain to you the means to realisation. Listen attentively. As long as you are contaminated with notions of me or mine (e.g., my home, my body, my mind, my intellect), the Self will not be found, for it lies beyond cognition and cannot be realised as ‘my Self ’.

Retire into solitude, analyse and see what those things are which are cognised as mine; discard them all and transcending them, look for the Real Self…Analyse everything in this way and discard it. What remains over, transcending it all, beyond conception, appropriation, or relinquishment — know That to be the Self. "
.
ॐ