anrchy
Read this book (you won't regret it) ... Jed does a great job of explaining things in a 'non airy fairy' way.

The gradual stripping away of knowledge/ego, leaving just awareness of the fact that there 'Is No Self', is the crux of the matter. This is the momentum. (although it can and does happen in a flash, occasionally)

Enlightenment is 'The Realization of the Truth' nothing more...

Not sure if this was mentioned in this thread; if so, I apologize.

Enlightenment isn't some end goal/process; it's a continual evolution of the inner and outer worlds. It never becomes static. It's nothing that one moves towards; it's what's here right now, nowhere else. It's like jumping in the river. It's becoming the process by which all life abides and realizing it deeply; which is continual; not a static end result nor fixed.

imo

This👆
And if one ever considers oneself "enlightened", one is not..
I is Ego. But what Cyb said

This is a common misconception. Do you really think after someone realizes enlightenment they're going to have no sense of self? Ego will still be there, it's just truth is now known for that individual. This can either make the Ego far stronger or far weaker. The choice is up to the individual.

So you're telling me, If I convince an enlightened master to say they're enlightened, with a few magical words, their halo will plop off their head? No more enlightenment? Is that how it works?

Enlightened people can still be assholes, can swear, can kill, they are not bound by any morality or external ideas. Don't think otherwise

How can a person "garentee" Exactly what "Enlightenment" really is?..

I think I've overstayed my welcome on this topic, however

Aweems wrote:
And if one ever considers oneself "enlightened", one is not..

then

"Enlightenment" is obviously a weasel word?

Gentelmen . You are not going to get to an at least half way sensible explanation unless you go about it scientificly . Start with a plan / strategy and then work like sherlock homes .

Is there such a things as enlightenment ?
In what circumstances does it happen ?
How does it happen biologicly / phisiologicaly ?
Whats the evil-utionary benefit ?
How would people know if they or others are enlightened ?

As there is no santa christmas and if it realy exists there must be a sensible / rational explenation for it .

If you dont get away frorm hokus pokus , " gurus " and other " religeous " propoganda = if you dont start thinking clearly , neutraly , objectively and criticaly you wont get to a reliable answer .

The sneaky question department asks ........ Are any of you enlightened ? If not ........ what gives you the authority to make claims or speculate about it ?

SO ....... what abot starting again methodicaly ? With a plan ? Scientific method ?


AND ...... What about each of you writeing a list of qualitys of an elightened person and the bennefits of enlightenment and then we can talk about if those expectations are realistic .

A science docu I seen called Enlightenment in the Brain. (I will look it up) describes Enligthement in this fashion:

Buddha had a tough time and all of the demons he encountered that night. There was fear and scientifically speaking he said that all the energy has gone to the left side of the brain. Then when everything is in the left side it suddenly tips over to the right; and this is said to be the brain of an enlightened.. Excuse me if i am being overtly intuitive but this is what I think of when I think Enlightenment.

So ........ its just a more efficient way of thinking . That the brain uses different fuctions to solve problems = That instead of useing just their intelligence they use the mental capacity and mechanism that is used for other functions ...... for example emotions . That means not in words that your mind uses . Then we are talking about things in the direction of ...... autism .

So like sauvants . That can remember EVERY single thought that they have ever had . That can solve problems that others cant by useing their bain functions in a different less limited way .

I don't think Aweems meant that there would be no sense of self/ego. Perhaps he/she meant that any person/persona who claims enlightenment can not be truly enlightened because someone who is familiar with the true nature of being and enlightenment would have already realized that no person can be enlightened - nothing becomes enlightened. That which is enlightened is already - always - enlightened.

That which is enlightened is that in which all personas occur. If personas were clouds, what I am speaking of would be the sky. It is that which most people don't even know they truly are. They/we identify with our personas.; our images of ourselves that are built up over time as we grow and develop as 'people on earth.' What is enlightened is beyond that.

This other thing (no 'thing', really) is silent. It does not speak. It claims nothing. The second anything is claimed, it is a projected illusory persona claiming it.

This 'thing' is not built up or developed. It is not of earth, or any other specific place.

It is not ours; we (as we see ourselves) occur within it.






Truly this 'thing' can not be left behind - but we turn our awareness away from it as soon as we begin to identify with a persona - growing up as a child. It happens very early in life, and we're taught to develop that persona. By doing so we further lose sight of what we truly are outside of the context of the [mostly] mundane human life on earth.

HOWEVER - it seems plausible that, once becoming familiar with the fact that any persona they project is not the enlightened, someone's way of living/expressing/being in life may make them seem to be enlightened to others. And there's the paradox. The persona can not be enlightened, yet once a link has been made between persona and that which it occurs in, the persona(s) utilized by that being can be seen to let the light of all that is THROUGH them. They become a conduit - thus, seemingly becoming 'enlightened' in the eyes of others.

Perhaps it is the whole being that becomes enlightened with the light of God. And by that I don't mean you as a person, or you as a person plus all your etheric bodies or whatever, I mean you as a person + something beyond all of that. Beyond any vestigial bit of humanness. When the light of that - the light of source - shines through your expression in life - perhaps you could be said to be enlightened. And yet, anyone tagging that to your persona would be mistaken.


Now, some may disagree - and that's to be expected, because we don't all have the same definition of enlightenment. It can mean very different things to different people. This is what it means to me. (and yet, notice how I didn't really explain exactly what it means - I don't think it's something to be defined, or confined to a certain program of being. It is something that would always be fresh and new)

And really, that's the crux of it. Scientific validity requires objectively verifiable, observable results. For our everyday phenomenal world, this is an utterly amazing and powerful tool.

But here, we seek no object in the investigation of enlightenment. We seek the seeker. And I don't mean a subjective entity. Many traditions have laid this out. It is considered non-dual, neither subject nor object.

This is the essence of the Zen concept of koan, the paradoxical riddle unsolvable by rational thought. You may think that's just trying to pull a fast one... that anything should be accessible and solvable by logic and rational thought? But just what is logic and rational thought? Where did it come from? Where does it exist? How do you know it to be a true process all the way to its core?

Another way to look at it is, you have this awesome, flawless rabbit trap (science, logic, rational thought)... but can it trap an elephant (mind, awareness, god, source of all being and non-being)?

My own opinion is that enlightenment is already always here. That some part of us always knows it to be the foundation of our being... or we wouldn't be so endlessly fascinated by it! In our temporal vernacular, what we tend to call an "enlightened" person, is simply one who--while still sporting an "identity"--rests her awareness in the source, and allows the identity to flow effortlessly out from that source. And we recognize "enlightenment" in others simply because their presence reflects back the source within us. It's our true everlasting home. And it's been here all along.

Completely gershtunkenflunked,
rootsie

^^^^bump^^^^

That's a wonderful distillation, Unknowing! I'm going to have to copy this down somewhere and forget it for later!

rootsie

I think it is basicly focus and appreciation.

Really soaking it in and valuing it.

I don't think it requires really radical conditions to achieve that, but a lot of openness to maintain it.

Yes, this!!! When a person awakens to their own truest universal nature, wholly interconnected to everything else existent... wherein do such imaginary boundaries lie between oneself and another parallel blossom of self? Sure, it may seem silly to compare the pedals on a lotus blooming, to the myriad souls incarnated in our immediate worldscape but I've always fancied this analogy. The sacred chrysanthemum known through NN-DMT experiences is arguably the very symbol of the highpoint of the human spiritus, the sheer exuberance of the activated field of conscious-awareness, as it freely occurs within the vortex of the I-am principle. This we all share.

So, where does the concrete differentiations occur to obscure the unity, is it in the fundamental ego association creating friction betwixt self and other? Perhaps therein lies the initial cause and the veil obscuring our illumination. So too, where do the finite membranes of separation begin to exist to create dichotomy in it's many guises? Within which dimensional paradigm do they originate and more so, just whose dreamscape is this, anyway?

I feel that it is within the transitory mind and it's interphase with the data culled from the five material senses, intellect, natural instincts and intuition. But we go far deeper, as deep as the core fulcrum of infinity itself. It's simply a matter of clearly focused, direct attention, to see the light and merge therein.


Agreed. When all are naught but one phenomenon in exponential bloom, in clear understanding that we are all the same unified field of being, the same symbiotic deeper self perceiving of existence... who then, is not oneself? And deeper still, upon the threshold of attunement to this brightened realization, who then not the enlightened one?


We are all intricate parts of the Web of Life. We are each of us multifaceted aspects of the whole and are symmetrical to the totality. We co-create this fabric of reality, even as we cognize our own unique experience of being existent. We too, are like mirrors of one another. Seeing is believing, eh? Namaste to you all, my fellow Nexian travelers.


Sigh... I've always loved wise ole Lao Tzu's serene phrasing and poetic sensibility.

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of myriad things."

Some of the best, most mysterious and profound lines ever written.

I don't really have much to add, other than the observation that what is most interesting in this thread is that we can all quote GOD with impunity, and without fear of "appealing to authority". Or "appealing to tradition" or any other fallacy usually conjured when quoting a deity.

Thank you GOD.

JBArk

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of myriad things."

Good quote . It means that for instance enlightenment cant be acurately described it can only be experienced . Its about the difference between direct experience of something and describeing it . Words are not enough .

People often ask what a trip is like . The answer often given = Describe red to a blind man .




Enlightenment is something that humans are capeable of . Has anyone here direct experience of enlightenmnet ? Anyone trying or tried to get there ?

Has anyone had near death experience/s and / or white light experiences ?

in Buddhism enlightenment refers to a momentary experience, where one sheds their ego and karmic restraints, to achieve and be in nirvana. it is typically used to refer to the first time a person reaches nirvana and not a lasting thing. one attempts to pursue nirvana over and over until that is their constant state of being.

so one may experience enlightenment, but enlightened would not be a state of being. the state of being in nirvana is what the Buddha achieved, not enlightenment. which i believe to be a very real thing, but the rarest challenge to beat.

To be able to act, think and move free of karma, desire and all its restraints would be amazing.

Nearly impossible to do if you really think about it though, to be free of all conditioning.

"How can you describe him in human language, the Buddha, the Awakened One. free from the net of desires and the pollution of passions, free from all conditioning?"

I dont believe in superstitions, but i do believe in being able to free yourself of conditioning and desire, to be as close to perfect as a human can be. Sorry if this is not pertinent to what you were asking but i have been dabbling into Buddhism recently and desired to share my thoughts.

My opinion ...... well ment ...... not an attack ---- >

" in Buddhism enlightenment refers to a momentary experience, where one sheds their ego and karmic restraints, to achieve and be in nirvana. it is typically used to refer to the first time a person reaches nirvana and not a lasting thing. one attempts to pursue nirvana over and over until that is their constant state of being. "

If its not a lasting thing how can it be constant / a constant state of being ?


" the state of being in nirvana is what the Buddha achieved "

Are you sure ? Isnt that hearsay from hearsay from hearsay ? What is enlightened about a prince that goes on the road and lives of the backs of poor people , preaching poverty and begging off them ? A prrince that tells them that their sufering is their own fault . That its ego . That the reason that they are poor is that they have bad karma from their last life and that the rich person is rich because they have good karma from their last life . That they should acept their exploitation and poverty . That they should give up violence = Stop fighting for their rights and acept their slavery .

Doesnt that produce mindless defenceless happy slaves ? ......... that can be exploited by princes and co . with no fear that they might demand their rights ? Isnt budism just more bread and games ? Something to use to control people ...... mostly by evil old men ? Remember religeon is the opium of the masses ?

Budism isnt a religeon ? Tell that to the millions that wear the uniform , go to temples filled with staues and pictures of buda .......... that people worship and pray to and ask for things .


" To be able to act, think and move free of karma, desire and all its restraints would be amazing. "

Thats free will . And yes its hard to do ....... if not imposible . Free will doesnt mean that one has to be conscious of all ones conditioning and to be free from it . You will never be free from it it is a part of you . Its what made you you . Wether it came fom outside or inside . Instad of being free from it one compensates for it ......... in conscious moments . That means that instead of action reaction one learns action / thinking / reaction . That ones actions arent just blind reactions . That one has a strategy and one lives to it . That strategy would contain some of what budists say ...... like good thoughts , good deeds and good actions . And that one atempts to be neutral , objective and critical of everything . That one acepts nothing as is . That one looks at it and looks fo what it realy is and not what it is suposed to be . That one believes nothing , has faith in nothing and trusts nothing . That one questions everything .

That sounds like a big act ...... a big effort but it isnt . Its just a way of looking at things .

I dont need to know all my conditioning to be honest . To see and do the right thing . To be fair .


" i do believe in being able to free yourself of conditioning and desire, to be as close to perfect as a human can be. "

Then you have the right starting point and the right atitude to do it .


Whatever . The answer . Your answer is in you . Its not in a book or a place and it cant be bought . The only way to go is to be honest and follow your way . Spirituality is just the continuation of honesty .

" That sounds like a big act ...... a big effort but it isnt . Its just a way of looking at things . "

= The same sort of thing as " Scientific method ---- > " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method But instead of being aplyed to an expeiment being aplyed to ones whole life . To everything one thinks , does and says .......


" Then you have the right starting point and the right atitude to do it . Whatever . The answer . Your answer is in you . Its not in a book or a place and it cant be bought . The only way to go is to be honest and follow your way . Spirituality is just the continuation of honesty . "

After reading that again it sounds a bit pretencious to me . I wasnt just talking about what i quoted . I mean that from what you wrote you seem to be a searcher , to be doing research , thinking , asking questions and being honest ....... and thats the way to go .