Hi all,

Actually I am writing about meditation retreats and meditation to post, since I see that it is great misconception about it in general culture and surprisingly on this forum too.

Meditation is realisation through bodily pain, as many monastic and shamanistic practices world wide, as in the book Modern Primitives.

Have you heard of Sadomasochism S/M spiritual path?

Have you heard of Sundance and Fakir?

Your responses will help me write a post regarding Buddhist meditation practice.

Thanx
Jox

S/M? As in sadomasochism? Not judging, just want to make sure we are on the same page.

Yes, I edited the post for clarity.

I guess you can see everything as a spiritual practice. Or, in other words, every aspect of Life can be considered a spiritual practice depending on how you define things and how you see your life in general.

Weren't some medieval monks orders self-flagellating themselves as a means to spiritual practice? Don't some people do the same today?

Yes many monastic practices and tribal have pain as path.

I posted the question to see how much folks on nexus are familiar with the topic. I did quick research on duckduckgo and found nothing, it sees a more controversial topic than the drugs.

In short slow and increased body pain increases the body's production of beta endorphins, which gives so called endorphin rush. To get to that state the mind has to be calm and very aware dealing with pain and not produce self pity emotions, which are ego protections. It has to detach mind, or thinking process from the body sensations, if not it doesn't work.

Strong pain produces adrenalin, which is flight or fight reaction and is opposite from the endorphin process. Yoga is similar as well as Buddhist practices.

Very true!

There are some characteristics of S&M that are quite similar to what we do here with the spice.

Like learning how to completely let go and give yourself to something or someone. It can go both ways. There is the other side where you can explore just how much control you really can have.
And learning to revel in the intensity of an experience instead of fearing it or thinking it's bad.
Giving in to intuitive/primal urges and rhythms and transmuting that energy into unfiltered revitalizing bliss.
Exercising trust is another important aspect as well.

You can also become something else if you desire. Another side of yourself, or another role all-together.

Through pain we can become stronger in a way. Just some thoughts off the top of my sleepy head.

I feel reluctant to inflict bodily pain.

But in many oral maoi+light ceremonies, it is much about pain, to severe degrees, by just laying still in a couch. Nothing to see in the outer, but in experience very painful.

One time, it was crushing like squeezing, and I felt like I could stop it but I wanted to face it, saying: wtf are you showing me? What is this? Is something feeding on me now? Is something gaining from my pain here? Tears roll out the eyes. Then I asked myself: maybe this is just me, enjoying it in denial? Am I enjoying this feeling perhaps? I asked myself to answer that question and strangely there was a mixed feeling about is, somewhat contradicting and unclear.

The answer that did came was that it was good for the body, that certain processes had beneficial effects as a result, that some processing occurs for the better. Like a hurtful cleaning out. Like in that occasions, certain energies that cling on must release trough that process.

Does this relate to physical bodily pain?
On one ayahuasca ceremony a fellow asked me (because I was there to participate): "Are you into masochism to do this practice?" And I understood he must also experiences pain in ceremonies, and I said, Yes but only for a healing outcome, not for the pain as such.

I think it is not comparable to physical pain, yet is is pain none the less.

On another note, just to mention: Jiddu Krishnamurti once stated that enjoyable sexual indulgence compared to bodily suffering pain, is different in experience but for the body-entity it is all the same and no different. He said that to advocate benefits of sexual abstinence.

In general, to me it looks that a body that is stressed somehow, is healthier in a reaction toward the stress. What is sports? Stressing the body, to very painful level in most cases, and very accepted and even promoted by society. What is watching a thriller? It is "participating" painful scenes, for the body a simulation of real, close to real.

The most excruciating pain I ever had, was an existential crisis during ceremony, there was no place to hide, no peace, it made a tear in my psyche never to be the same again. A scar, but the change has upgraded me somehow, in a way.

I reflect often, how far (certain) plant ceremonies differ from SM.
Still I wont go for inflicting bodily pain as such, but that's just me, now.

I don't consider meditation to be 'realization through bodily pain' at all. At least not the meditation I practice !

There is enough pain in my life already, I have no desire to seek out more.

Suffering has no redemptive value, despite what JuChrIslam has to say about it.

Hardcore Buddhist ascetics likewise earn my derision.


Furthermore, I totally despise the master/slave dynamic which apparently gets so many people off these days.


So sorry but from my perspective S/M is an obstacle to spiritual development, not an aid.
It is ugly.
And I would request that anyone who enjoys hanging themselves from hooks or licking toilets for their master in order to transcend their ego, please stay far, far away from me.

I would agree with your views that suffering has no redemptive value..mostly.


My first ever psychedelic exerience was a muhroomtrip when I was 19 years old.
It was also a very "bad trip", but at the same time the one that had brought me most critical insight & self-realisation. I experienced no physical pain, but I was in a state of utter paranoya and intese fear, so I was defenitely suffering.


The fear had alot to do with me realising how I had been living up till then:
Careless, Wreckless, abusing MDMA and gambling with my life. This was quite a shocking realisation. I saw it before, but my Ego would find excuses not to do anything about it.

When the mushrooms shovedit into my face, giving me such intense suffering from fear and shame, my Ego collapsed and I was no longer able to denie my self-realisations.

In this case suffering(a bad trip full of fear) DID have redemptive value.




But I would agree with you that I see no redemptive value in physical pain.
Part of a healthy mind is to love/care for yourself: Your whole self. That includes your body. Spirituality, IMO, is the persuit and maintenance of a healthy mind/psyche.
Hurting your body seems an expression of self-hatred and to me seems wildly a-spiritual/unhealthy.


Maybe it is more the playing of roles in SM (Submissive, Dominant) that may have redemptive/therapeutic value.

A cubical slave working in an office may get constantly dominated & treated poorly by his boss and other superiors at work. This is frustrating for him. I can imagine if this guy comes home and has a wife who allows him to dominate her during SM-sessions, that may JUST be what can release his frustrations and why he can keep working with dominating assholes.

Similairly this guy's boss, who's used to dominating everyone all the time at work, may come home to a wife that straps him down in bed and dominates him. Like Domination, sbmission too has it's perks. Submitting to the will of another can be strangely relaxing for dominant personalities; Afterall Dominating people costs energy, awareness all the time. Leaving it up to another takes quite a load of stress off of a dominator's mind.


So in that respect I can see how Dominant & Submissive personalities can help eachother, with SM-sex acts, in releaving eachother's stress. That would have redemptive value.


But physical pain? No. If people find redemption in physical pain, I would say they were damaged/distorted and made a faulty connection: Between Pain & Redemption. There's nothing I feel is sick or wrong about SM per say, but enjoying of inflicting or receiving physical pain I would say is sick & unhealthy.


When having sex with a girl, I have enjoyed the submissive aspect of a girl scratching her nails across my back, but I have never enjoyed the pain itself.

@blue lunar night,

I am talking of Sadomasochism, SM and not Submission Domination SD which is totally different, and it is what you are referring too. Also Holywood seems to have had a lots of interest in mispresenting all.

SM are techniques that one goes to courses to learn them, you just don't get up one morning and do it. It is actually expensive practice, one needs a dungeon and a lots of equipment and a ton of experience to do a scene.

You say you have a lots of pain, physical or emotional? SM is certainly not suited if you are deeply suffering.

It is precisely the Abrahamic religions that removed us from pain practices of many tribal traditions, that actually gave bright to yoga and Buddhist meditations.

I think that going to gym is slowly getting back to these practices.

@Jees
You are touching up on my doomed thread MY TRIPS ARE WORST THAN ANY OF YOURS, sorry I am on Ipad in India and can't provide the link, I wonder what you think of it.

Completely stole the words from me. Agree 100%


@ Jox

To say we are all misunderstanding meditation practice, and that meditation IS realization through bodily pain? I just dont understand, when there are plenty of other ways to delve deep into the interior without having to inflict pain.

I wouldnt say that S/M is the one, true bona fida way in terms of going deep in meditation. There are many ways.

Consensual Sadomasochism can be HIGHLY/EXTREMELY spiritual. . . . don't knock it if you have not deeply explored it . . . It can bring on the most intense altered, bonding (LOL not bondage, bonding), spiritual states imaginable.

Certainly not beyond DMT, as that is in a class by itself. . .

But, absolutely way way beyond LSD and others.

Many cultures have known that pain, deprivation, restriction of movement, etc. can bring on INTENSE altered states in relatively short time periods. It's not as fast as consuming a psychedelic, but it sure beats sweeping the temple for 12 years. . . .

Very interesting topic. Jox, I would be interested in reading what you write about SM and buddhist meditation.

Mixing meditation and pain is not something I've heard much about. I am very interesting in hearing what you have to say about it, but I don't think I would participate. Who knows, maybe a persuasive essay can change minds...


I once had an experience on smoked spice that was very painful. It felt like my body was being torn apart on the insides. The voice that accompanied the pain simply said that pain is only the awareness of change - the representation of our own personal dissonance becoming synchronized within.

I've never read an explanation of pain in ceremony before, this one really strikes a chord, there must be much to synchronize in this body. Thanks for sharing this perception, it helps me carrying on. I did feel intuitively some stuff was just plain processing. I do keep an eye open for entities feeding from my suffering and whispering that it's all okay.

I'm glad that sharing my experience was able to give you something useful.

I have a pretty weird relationship with pain. I'm not overly bothered by it, nor do I go out of the way to seek it. Indifferent is a good explanation. It's there when it's there, and gone soon(relative to the injury) after. I don't spend much time dwelling on it before, during, or after, and I usually heal pretty quick. To me, it teaches a lesson of awareness.

Sorry for neglecting my thread cuz I am traveling, and my 3G expired, so it is a drag.

It is interesting that the question of pain under different administration, smoked, oral came up. I thought since I have fibromyalgia, that it was related to pain I am always in, which it is - my pain is almost gone after a 2 years of work with pharma.

But it is interestging that healthy individuals have the pain too, I am sure it is some kind of healing going on...

and regarding SM, I am writing an essay since I see that there is interest. Just to add that it is not pain in traditional sense, like nobody goes to do root canal without the anestesia. Actually some practitioners of SM call it sensation management, it is slow increasement of "pain" over long period of time.

soon the essay will come
Jox